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Knottingley WRD




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#1 Richard_S

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 12:16

This is the new home for the thread discussing the building of a small layout for exhibition viewing based on the the Wagon Repair Facility at Knottingley in west Yorkshire.
Previous details were to be found on our club page on the old version of RMWeb and a short update appears in the layout section of the new site that will be moved here.

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#2 Richard_S

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 14:43

Knottingley

by Richard S

original page on Old RMweb
__________________________________________
Comment posted by Richard_S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:23 am

A thread to show progress on the latest version of my efforts at dabbling in P4. An earlier version of this appeared on the WFRM website for a while. The original boards were based on IKEA Moppe boxes with inspection holes cut into the bottoms to allow installation of wiring and point motors. Adding an integral lighting gantry and front fascia as per Ian Rice's book Layout Design Finescale in small spaces revealed that the structure was top heavy and too susceptible to warping. Add in the mix the fact that I had been too stingy with adhesives and it became clear that the only way forward was to go backwards.....

So the Mk III version sits on 2 boards from Brilliant Baseboards and I'll post some pictures shortly.
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:24 pm

Overall view of the layout;

Posted Image

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Comment posted by Richard_S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:12 pm

Close up of 2 Hornby 56s and an 09 at the shed end;

Posted Image

This is all a mock up at present. The top is a piece of 6mm MDF whereas the layout will be built on 6 or 9mm ply to reduce weight.

Additional enhancements will include;

- curved backscene from bendy MDF
- lighting gantry and view blocker with fluorescent lights
- hidden fiddle yard and potential to shunt through the wagon repair facility
- as much layout enhancement factor as time and imagination will stretch to...
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:39 pm

One more shot of the buildings;

Posted Image

__________________________________________

Comment posted by Pete-Harvey on Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:19 am

Are you going to go all the way with this one Richard?

Its looking very good at present.

Pete
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:31 am

Pete

Thanks for your kind words.

The ambition is to complete it and ultimately take it out on the road.
Next step is to finalise the track plan and identify those sections of the supporting lattice that need to be removed to make way for Tortoise motors. I think this has to be easier prior to securing the baseboard tops in place.

I'll keep posting to show my progress.
__________________________________________

Comment posted by 87023velocity on Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:28 pm

Hi Richard,

This looks interesting! Posted Image One thing good about Knottingley, plenty of 56's! Posted Image I shall be watching this with interest, what date are you modelling?

Cheers

Simon
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:23 pm

Circa 1990. Bit of latitude either way to increase the livery variations; blue, large logo blue, railfreight with and without red stripe, sector coal etc etc
__________________________________________

Comment posted by 87023velocity on Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:51 pm

Richard_S wrote:
Circa 1990. Bit of latitude either way to increase the livery variations; blue, large logo blue, railfreight with and without red stripe, sector coal etc etc

Posted Image Posted Image That is one of the best era's IMHO for that area, I only visited Knottingley once after a visit to Doncaster and it was around that time, must of only been 13/14 Posted Image All I remember was plenty of filthy 56's with a few clean TTG ones knocking about.

Cheers

Simon
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Comment posted by Grimleygrid on Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:42 pm

I too am looking forward to seeing this finished. What a great place to model. As Simon says it was great to visit there due to the number of Grids that you could see there, quality! As you say in the time period you mention you can have so many different livery variations. Posted Image

Remember visiting there in early 1988 and seeing a Red-stripe Railfreight beast round the curve on MGRs, great!
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Thu Jul 16, 2009 7:06 pm

Thank you for your comments.

It was reading your layout thread, particularly the TMD section that inspired me to resurrect this project and have another go.

I think this is one of the big advantages of RMWeb; we can see things that we like or inspire us and have an easy way of discussing ideas.
__________________________________________

Comment posted by mikewturner on Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:10 pm

Below is a screenshot of Templot showing Knottingley from the planning portal as a background image with some straight track placed to denote an area of 8ft x 2ft.

Posted Image

Mike
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Comment posted by mikewturner on Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:21 am

Hi Richard

After playing around with the baseboard position this screenshot shows what I have settled on. Are you happy with this?

Posted Image

Mike
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Comment posted by ShedcombeUponFrome on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:12 am

Mike,

I would shift the selection down slightly, to take the curving track into the hall full into the board.
On the top, this will change not much in terms of what fits in, and what not.

In your selection, the lowest track goes off the board and comes back on towards the hall.
Doesn't seem logical, or have you choosen it this way on purpose ?

Regards, Michel
__________________________________________

Comment posted by mikewturner on Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:49 am

ShedcombeUponFrome wrote:
Mike,

I would shift the selection down slightly, to take the curving track into the hall full into the board.
On the top, this will change not much in terms of what fits in, and what not.

In your selection, the lowest track goes off the board and comes back on towards the hall.
Doesn't seem logical, or have you choosen it this way on purpose ?

Regards, Michel

Hi Michel

The lowest track will be omitted from the layout (at the moment). At least part of the shed will utilise the Bachmann building which is 2 road and fits nicely on the track centres of the next 2 roads up. Richard is keen to keep the road that runs behind the building at the top of the image so once I start placing track and building outlines we can better see what fits.

Please keep suggestions coming.

Regards

Mike
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Comment posted by ShedcombeUponFrome on Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:43 pm

Hi Mike,

Following the reasoning completely now.
Will FY's be connected up, and if so, in what way ?

Interesting all the same, especially as it's squeezing in a part of a prototypical location on a small layout.

Regards, Michel
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Comment posted by Richard_S on Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:19 pm

Michel

Thank you for your comments. The 2 FY boards will be separate with no connection. It will allow the movement of wagons from off scene through the wagon repair facility and off the other side, as did occur on the prototype during the era modelled.

Mike

I like the trackplan. Is there some way we can avoid the "2 rectangles" appearance and curve the front to improve the aesthetics?
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:00 pm

These are some of the buildings in the process of being measured up to see how they might fit into the overall scheme;

First up is Bachmann's resin diesel depot building;

Posted Image

Next under consideration is a Heljan depot building;

Posted Image

The other buildings on site will have to be scratchbuilt. Using the Planning Portal website (1) has allowed us to accurately represent the site and by drawing an aperture the same size as our boards we could see which tracks and elements of the site would best fit. Mike Turner is using this information to create a Templot of the layout. Measuring the buildings is necessary to ensure that the track centres of the running lines match up with those of the structures.

Two of Express Models lighting towers are in the cupboard awaiting use and it looks like we will need a third; the fourth actually present on the plan will be too close to the lighting system to be of much use.

We are keen to on the one hand produce a detailed representation of the prototype balanced with the need to make it a convincingly presented model with appropriately sited view blockers with drapes, lighting gantry and a proscenium arch as suggested by Iain Rice (2)

Ref
(1) http://www.planningp...land/genpub/en/
(2)An approach to model railway layout design finescale in small spaces. Rice I,Wild Swan, Oxon 1990.
__________________________________________

Comment posted by mikewturner on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:10 am

Richard_S wrote:

Mike

I like the trackplan. Is there some way we can avoid the "2 rectangles" appearance and curve the front to improve the aesthetics?

Hi Richard

No problem. Once I have finalised the track plan we can add some non structural shape to the baseboards to avoid the rectangular asteroid look. One thing we will definately have will be the now standard WFRM rounded corners on the backscene.

Mike
__________________________________________

Comment posted by mikewturner on Mon Aug 24, 2009 7:32 pm

Hi Guys

Back from holiday it's time for an update on the templot for Richard

Posted Image

Regards

Mike
__________________________________________

Comment posted by Richard_S on Tue Aug 25, 2009 12:36 pm

Mike

Thanks for that. If we know which cross pieces interfere with point motors I can cut them out before fitting baseboard tops.
Do you have that info?
__________________________________________

Comment posted by mikewturner on Tue Aug 25, 2009 8:21 pm

Richard_S wrote:
Mike

Thanks for that. If we know which cross pieces interfere with point motors I can cut them out before fitting baseboard tops.
Do you have that info?

Hi Richard

Before we go that far I think you should consider if we can make any changes for the better. For instance a train of wagons for repair coming along the back line from the left will have to be dragged off scene and shunted back on. If the S&C is moved to the left and realigned then this could be reduced/avoided. On the prototype the upper line ends as a headshunt to the right.

Mike
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Comment posted by Richard_S on Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:04 pm

What's S&C.....not Settle & Carlisle?

Can you draw your suggestion? Pictures paints a thousand words and all that!
Ta
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Comment posted by beast66606 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 11:12 pm

Richard_S wrote:
What's S&C.....not Settle & Carlisle?

Switches and Crossings = points Posted Image
__________________________________________

Comment posted by DavidBelcher on Wed Aug 26, 2009 9:24 am

beast66606 wrote:

Richard_S wrote:
What's S&C.....not Settle & Carlisle?

Switches and Crossings = points Posted Image

Bruce Forsyth wrote:
....and what do points make?

I'll get me coat. Posted Image

David
__________________________________________

#3 modelmaker87

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 16:49

Nice job Richard in transferring your original thread. :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_thumbsup2: :icon_thumbsup2:

Tone

#4 Richard_S

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 18:48

Nice job Richard in transferring your original thread. :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_thumbsup2: :icon_thumbsup2:

Tone


Thanks for the heads up on how to do it, Tone!

From the existing layout thread on all new RMWeb is;

After a short lull in progress on my layout I am pleased to announce further progress has been made.

Both scenic boards are topped out with plywood and this afternoon cork tiles were glued on with copious quantities of Febond PVA. They are now drying under the combined weight of our tinned food store and the contents of our wine rack.

In the meantime I have fired up my compressor and tried out my new Iwata TR1 airbrush....very nice piece of kit. Sprayed a batch of Branchline wheels prior to fitting in Hornby 56s. Oh, and spent a fruitless time looking for a batch of Exactoscale wheels for MGR conversions. Still haven't found them!

Pictures to follow shortly.


A prototype picture from my collection;

11-15-2009_001-09005-copywe.jpg

09005 shunts HAAs at Knottingley 05/09/93

A taster of what we are hoping to achieve.
I bought a scanner yesterday and am still trying to get the best from it.

#5 Richard_S

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Posted 31 December 2009 - 17:28

Spent a little time out in the workshop prior to tonight's New Year Party.

A view of a cutout to fit a Tortoise motor;
Brereton-Heath025web.jpg

EMGS alignment dowel fitted to centre board joint;
Brereton-Heath022web.jpg

Layout dusted prior to painting with B&Q Gloss Flannel Grey. All our layouts have been so treated, and this colour also fits with my attempt to mimic aSectorisation appearance. Painting the underside of all the boards protects from the effects of damp and dirt. Most areas can be reached with a small gloss roller which gives a far superior finish to brushing.
Brereton-Heath023web.jpg

Not especially hi-tech but worth pointing out how we protect all our layouts using DIY dust sheets. My garage is especially dusty and so too are the majority of halls used for exhibiting. Having cleaned the track and stock its a shame to see all that effort undone by heating systems or live steam exhibits. In this case the boards should still be dust free when I come to paint them.
Brereton-Heath001webup.jpg


Thats all folks for 2009. Happy New Year!

#6 Richard_S

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Posted 01 March 2010 - 11:24

And we're back;



IMG_7835web.jpg
IMG_7834web.jpg

Progress to date includes the installation of the first turnout along with three metres of track, the fourth is ready to go down once the templot has been cut to allow superglue to reach under the sleepers.

I intend to crack on this week ahead of the next WFRM outing to Nottingham.

#7 Richard_S

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 21:46

Captains log stardate........

KY-March-7002web.jpg

KY-March-7005web.jpg

KY-March-7001web.jpg

All 7 turnouts have now been laid along with about half of the plain line. Annoyingly I have underestimated the amount of track needed so will have to order a bit more.
So far, so good.

#8 Richard_S

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 19:40

KY-10th_March004web.jpg
KY-10th_March002web.jpg


Only the track that crosses the baseboard joint has still to be laid. The boards have been split again in advance of transporting then to our Foel View workshop at the weekend for fitting with copper clad to strengthen the joints.

Attached Thumbnails

  • KY-10th_March009web.jpg


#9 Richard_S

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Posted 10 March 2010 - 19:42

KY-10th_March012web.jpg KY-10th_March010web.jpg KY-10th_March009web.jpg
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#10 Richard_S

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Posted 29 March 2010 - 22:12

Further update. All track laying complete and started on the wiring. Droppers prepared for all the plain track and holes drilled. Once I have figured out how to post photos from a BlackBerry they will appear here.

#11 modelmaker87

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 14:27

Further update. All track laying complete and started on the wiring. Droppers prepared for all the plain track and holes drilled. Once I have figured out how to post photos from a BlackBerry they will appear here.


Hey Rich,

Layout looking good. To hell with your Crackberry, what you're doing now works just great. Just keep them pix coming my man.

Cheers, Tony

#12 Richard_S

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Posted 30 March 2010 - 17:37

Tone (and everyone else watching)

Right on cue here is today's progress;

KY-30th-March003web.jpg
Position of busbars marked onto layout to calculate the length of each dropper. Wiring is following the same principles as Widnes Vine Yard and Charlotte Road; each rail gets two droppers per discrete length which travel to the main busbars to pick up and return current.

KY-30th-March002web.jpg
Everything required to do the job is to hand. Having spent ages building all the track it seemed a shame to risk damage so bulky tools and lights are carried above the rails on offcuts of softwood and MDF.

KY-30th-March004web.jpg
Steel rail is notoriously hard to solder so flux and a 50 watt iron are called for.

The end resultKY-30th-March001web.jpg

KY-30th-March005web.jpg
Still plenty left to do before the exhibition debut in exactly 6 months time.

OMS today Van Morrison - Live in San Fransisco, Coldplay - Parachutes, Pink Floyd - Is There Anybody Out There, The Wall Live

BTN off to see if Witton Albion can get among the play off places in the Unibond Div 1 South......

#13 Richard_S

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 19:23

Managed a few more hours today and completed all the droppers for the plain track on Board 1.

Then turned my attention to the board joint. Copperclad has been araldited underneath the rails having first removed the terminal plastic sleepers. Once cleaned it was time to solder the rail and then -GULP- cut them with a razor bought especially for the purpose. Cutting discs in a minidrill are fine for off scene but out front the illusion of no visible joints needs to be achieved.

March_31002web.jpg

I did try clamping a rail of timber along edge but the wood just got in the way. So, I notched the rails with a fresh Stanley blade and then used the boards themselves to align the cuts.

March_31004web.jpg

Bingo!
March_31005web.jpg
In the interests of honesty there was one casualty as Turnout 103 is only 20mm from the board joint and one of the short stubs dropped off. It might be an idea to convert this short piece to all copperclad construction. Now the layout is in 2 halves I can take it to the WFRM clubrooms for further opinions and help.









OMS today Paul Simon -The Essential; Crosby Stills Nash & Young - Deja Vu; Led Zeppelin - Remasters
( Witton Albion did get among the play off places in the Unibond Div 1 South......)

#14 Taigatrommel

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Posted 31 March 2010 - 19:35

I've done quite a few of these style joints on my layout, and developed sllightly over time...

I initially used 24 hour setting Araldite, and that is great, holds really firm. I score the underside of the copper clad to achieve better grip as well. I later changed to five minute epoxy to increase my work rate, but that is nowhere near as good. I've had to reinforce those sleepers with a trak pin through each end- this led to its own problems, as after some slight movement during running, the pin on one contacted the copper strip on the underside of the sleeper- I therefore have had to make an additional slit in the upper copper strip to ensure isolation across the rails

After rubbing a gap in the centre of the copperclad strip with a small file, I clean the copper with a fibreglass pencil before tinning it- this tinning is done while the rail is not present, to get a good even coat of solder. Likewise I clean the rail where it is to be soldered with fibreglass pencil to get it really shiny, and the solder just leaps to that area when it's heated. I've had no rails come away from their copperclad sleeper where I have done this, even some very short sections akin to the one adjacent to your point. On a couple of early joints where I wasn't nearly so thorough, I found I could pull the rail away from the sleeper.

#15 Richard_S

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Posted 01 April 2010 - 23:07

Thanks for your comments. Cleanliness is everything in a good joint.

More work done today; all the droppers are fitted to the plain track which meant I could flip Board 1 to fit the busbars;
April_01web.jpg


Another use for an offcut produced a handy worksurface;
KY-1st-April_002web.jpg

A couple of views of the droppers before attatching them to the busbars. As its possible for the bars to touch I fastened them with cable ties to holes usefully pre-drilled in the Brilliant Baseboards;
KY-1st-April_003web.jpg
KY-1st-April_004web.jpg

OMS: Pink Floyd - Echoes, Coldplay - Parachutes, Marc Riley on 6music

#16 beast66606

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:01

WFRM standard neat and tidy wiring - we are all proud of you :P

Looking good Rich, see you tomorrow.
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#17 Richard_S

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 08:18

WFRM standard neat and tidy wiring - we are all proud of you :P

Looking good Rich, see you tomorrow.


Cheers; from someone as good at this as you, are that compliment means a lot.

#18 modelmaker87

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:06

Rich, what model stereo do you have. I note that OMS states you playing three different artists at the same time. :P :P :P

As our beastyboy said, and I'll add - neat job, nice job. I'm enjoying this thread.

Cheers, Tony

#19 Richard_S

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 16:11

Rich, what model stereo do you have. I note that OMS states you playing three different artists at the same time. :P :P :P

As our beastyboy said, and I'll add - neat job, nice job. I'm enjoying this thread.

Cheers, Tony


Tone


In the garage its a Rotel RCD965BX / NAD 310 / Gale Mini Monitors

The house systems are a mixture of Naim, Linn and Rega.

#20 modelmaker87

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 16:13

Tone


In the garage its a Rotel RCD965BX / NAD 310 / Gale Mini Monitors

The house systems are a mixture of Naim, Linn and Rega.



Chuckling here.... Now I got it, you run all of your systems at once. Kinda like third rail, a bit. :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_clap: :icon_clap:

Tone

#21 Richard_S

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 16:22

Not literally, that would be hideous!

#22 Richard_S

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 16:44

A few more photos showing today's progress on Board 2;
April_02_001web.jpg
April_02_002web.jpg
April_02_003web.jpg

#23 Richard_S

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 12:46

More work over the Bank Holiday weekend has seen the fitting of the first Tortoise at Turnout 104;
April_06_001web.jpg

The other Tortoise motors either require stronger wire to operate the tie bar and Gauge 22 piano wire is on order, or need to be offset moubnted using the Exactoscale sliding bar mechanism. So, for now I have put in the tags to wire them to;
April_06_002web.jpg

#24 Mr.S.corn78

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 13:16

Hi Rich,

The layout is looking good and i have been following for a while.

Quick question, why is the turnouts number 102, 104 etc?? as im sure you don't have that many on the layout Posted Image

cheers
Simon

#25 Richard_S

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 16:31

Hi Rich,

The layout is looking good and i have been following for a while.

Quick question, why is the turnouts number 102, 104 etc?? as im sure you don't have that many on the layout Posted Image

cheers
Simon


There are 7 numbered 101 - 107. This is in line with how we numbered all the turnouts on both Vine Yard and Charlotte Rd. The signalling experts in WFRM might be along to provide the reason behind this.






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