Redsrail Posted November 27, 2012 Share Posted November 27, 2012 Hi guys, Not sure if this is in the right section or not, but here goes. On my layout which is 1980's BR blue N gauge, would the containers used be the same as nowadays ? Let me clarify a bit.....not the wagons carrying them, but the boxes, would the companies be the same as nowadays or maybe more of the grey/red stripe BR Freightliner ones please..? Hope this makes sense to you guys, if not i'll try to clarify as we go. Thanks in advance. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 The companies and the logos will have changed over time, particularly as companies changed ownership and as different traffic flows evolved. I don't know how much non-Freightliner traffic there was in the '80s. In North America, some are broadly similar, some have disappeared, and some new ones have appeared over that timeframe (it is a span of 25-30 years...). More Chinese and Korean boxes for instance (China Shipping, Hyundai). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 When modern shipping containers were originally introduced they were 8 feet wide x 8 feet high and 20, 30 or 40 feet long. With the 8 x 8 profile they were within the normal loading gauge and could go more or less anywhere. From the 1970s onwards boxes that were 8 feet 6 inches high were introduced, these were more restricted in their route availability and a BR 29973 Exceptional Load Form had to be issued for their journey. More recent developments have seen the introduction of boxes 9 feet high, hence the special low hight vehicles built to carry them but I think they would be after your 1980s timeframe. As regards the red/grey Freightliner liveried boxes, I would say they were already much in decline by the later 1980s, and their use would mostly be on domestic services between inland terminals. Services running to/from ports would mostly have shipping liveried boxes. cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2012 There have been many changes in the container business since the 1980s. As always seems to be the way with railway modelling, the devil is in the detail. The best way to find out what you need is to look for dated photos of the period you want to model. I remember seeing the Trafford Park-Holyhead Freightliners going through Manchester Victoria in the mid-1980s and seeing Freightliner branded (this branding has changed over time) containers along with a mixture of others of which OCL and OOCL spring to mind. A quick Google for "OCL containers" shows that these disappeared around 1987 with a change to P&O branding followed by P&O Nedlloyd and now Maersk after name changes, mergers and buyouts. I seem to remember the odd Guiness container tank and various others whose names I've forgotten. Hope this helps. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 not the wagons carrying them, but the boxes, would the companies be the same as nowadays or maybe more of the grey/red stripe BR Freightliner ones please..? Companies - many (i'd go as far as suggesting most!) have changed, even those that haven't will have updated lettering and logo's - lots of 'fallen flags' which would have been common in the 80s now do not exist, and many common names of today didn't exist then. Have a look at Paul Bartlett's Freightliner collection and see what kind of loads were on flats. In addition the boxes themselves were quite different - I don't think you'll have seen any high cube (9'6") on rail - and the construction style of the standard (8'6") marine boxes would likely be different - you may still have 8' marine boxes in service as well. You'll have had some built from FRP, plus some Aluminium sheet & post (either external post, or internal with a flat riveted side) - lots of steel boxes, but most would have very different details to the ones you see today, as boxes were built by hundreds of small-scale builders back then you can pretty much pick and mix the following features for older steel boxes: * Square ribs versus todays angled corrugation * Logo panels, some both ends, some LH end, some RH end, some not at all... * Some newer boxes by the late 80s had angled corrugations like modern ones, some of them had an angled logo panel for stiffness * Doors could have ribs like current ones, be a flat sheet, or be fabricated * Roofs could have ribs like current ones, or be flat sheet Supposition - Most Freightliner boxes seem to have been built for domestic UK use (odd sizes, no BIC coding) - so you might have to be careful what you are modelling with regards to the mix of loads - a domestic flow might have loads of Freightliner boxes, one from Felixstowe or Southampton may not have... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Many good answers here. They varied considerably down the years. My collection has been mentioned, it is at http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer They were never easy to photograph, as they worked from depots that had a lot of security - I must admit I never tried to enter any of these by simply asking, which is strange as that worked at so many other places! The trains rarely hung about in intermediate yards. I have always thought this would make a nice model http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e2855b985 The Farish containers were based on my photos at Derby in 1979 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/e36525495 Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Welcome to the black art of intermodal modelling! I like you thought about this and the same amount of variation put me off somewhat. Who'd have thought a metal box would be so complicated! At least in n it's easier to get away with! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 HI All Ive been looking into this myself for a while now and have taken to getting as many pics as i can before they are scrapped,and always do the data panel. The current type of container originated about the mid 80s as i have pics somewhere to prove it i have all the livery specs for the freightliner but other livery's are like hens teeth. The 30ft bulktainer dates from then as the one my model was based on was made by Cobra in 85. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Hello again, Oh my god, this is a bit of minefield is'nt it..? Here's me thinking they were just boxes on trains....lol. Guess i'd better do my homework first and choose carefully. Terry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Back once more guys, Sorry to be a nuisance with this but maybe i'm missing the perfectly obvious here.......i think i may have found the kind of thing i want, but i don't know how to make it link on here. Anyway it's container vehicles from a company called Lima, which i don't know of, the containers are Danzas, OCL, CNC, Hapag, Hapag LLoyd & Nedlloyd which appear to match with a few photo's on Mr Bartletts site. Will link when i figure it out, so i can get your opinions. Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Lima were an Italian manufacturer, so one concern would be if the boxes are the right scale for you? (Or knowing Lima, the right scale for anything!) Not sure about Danzas or CNC as my impression is they were European mainland operators, but the other 4 shipping co.s may well work depending on livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Were..? Does this mean that they're products are no longer available.? Yes it says they are N gauge....and they look N gauge, so here's hoping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stuart A Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 28, 2012 There was also this topic on an old version of RM Web, which I've bookmarked for future reference.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22042&start=0 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Danzas are a Swiss-owned logistics firm, who do a lot of work in Germany; never seen any ISO-boxes with their liveries, but lots of 7.1 and 13.6m swap-bodies, sadly mainly on road vehicles. CNC are Compagnie Nouvelle des Conteneurs, formerly an SNCF-owned intermodal firm. Their boxes were a real mixture of non-ISO types, from ones about 2m wide and long and upward; more recently, they seem to have concentrated on 13.6m swap-bodies. They're quite long-established, their original name was C..N..des Cadres, from the French term for the old style of container, long before steel boxes appeared. Sadly, neither company would have used Freightliner services, I fear; whilst CNC shipped to Dover into the mid-1990s (pet-food to Melton Mowbray, IIRC), the boxes were transhipped to road vehicles, as Dover couldn't forward containers by rail. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Were..? Does this mean that they're products are no longer available.? Yes it says they are N gauge....and they look N gauge, so here's hoping. Lima also did N-scale stock for North American and European outline, so make sure they aren't 1/160 instead of 1/148. http://www.visi.com/...t/limaflat.html These are 1/160 scale, but give some ideas of some of the types (Deluxe has made other ones than those shown in the past - go to their pre-production photos from their home page) Note that anything over 45' will be a North American domestic container rather than an international one. http://www.deluxeinn...gcontamain.html Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redsrail Posted November 28, 2012 Author Share Posted November 28, 2012 Ah !! So it's the older Graham Farish ones i need then, just checked with a friend and he too confirms the sizes differ between Grafar and Lima freightliner sets.........oh well, better start a new search then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Your other option may be C-Rail http://www.c-rail-intermodal.co.uk/ (see the forum area on RMWeb too) Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastwestdivide Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Here's a couple on the move from 1986, same day, more or less the same location (Reading-Didcot), showing a pretty uniform company train (OCL?) and a more mixed one. Noticeable that the vast majority seem to be 20' ones, and they're not so heavily "branded" as current ones I think - more anonymous? If any container experts would like to add anything... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Here's a couple on the move from 1986, same day, more or less the same location (Reading-Didcot), showing a pretty uniform company train (OCL?) and a more mixed one. Noticeable that the vast majority seem to be 20' ones, and they're not so heavily "branded" as current ones I think - more anonymous? If any container experts would like to add anything... The first shot is the 'Anchor Butter' train, which ran from Tilbury (I think- it might have been Felixstowe) to Swindon; there not being a 'proper' terminal at Swindon, unloading was by mobile crane, ISTR. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gary H Posted November 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 28, 2012 Many good answers here. They varied considerably down the years. My collection has been mentioned, it is at http://paulbartlett....tlinercontainer They were never easy to photograph, as they worked from depots that had a lot of security - I must admit I never tried to enter any of these by simply asking, which is strange as that worked at so many other places! The trains rarely hung about in intermediate yards. I have always thought this would make a nice model http://PaulBartlett....ainer/e2855b985 The Farish containers were based on my photos at Derby in 1979 http://PaulBartlett....ainer/e36525495 Paul Bartlett Crikey, some superb archive images there, Paul!! Im fasinated by this one http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/h3b400d32#h3b400d32 as its the only picture ive seen depicting what I think is the guards recess?? (about the best you could describe it!) in the first wagon. I once read that the unions got this pratice quickly outlawed due to what must have been appauling ride quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Here's a couple on the move from 1986, same day, more or less the same location (Reading-Didcot), showing a pretty uniform company train (OCL?) and a more mixed one. Noticeable that the vast majority seem to be 20' ones, and they're not so heavily "branded" as current ones I think - more anonymous? If any container experts would like to add anything... The second photo is showing wagons with either 3x20' or 1x40' and 1x20' (presumably the same as the old Hornby ones). Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 Crikey, some superb archive images there, Paul!! Im fasinated by this one http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brfreightlinercontainer/h3b400d32#h3b400d32 as its the only picture ive seen depicting what I think is the guards recess?? (about the best you could describe it!) in the first wagon. I once read that the unions got this pratice quickly outlawed due to what must have been appauling ride quality. There are a couple of them preserved, including one at the NRM which I have a photo of somewhere! Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 HI All This is Dundee in 1987 i think, the container you can just see the end of is an Argos container and you would see them at Aberdeen as well, it was the first container i ever purposely took a pic of!!!! and look what that stared.. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HGT1972 Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 A good source of old liveries, admittedly black and white, are old volumes of 'Jane's Freight Containers'. I have a 1975-6 and a 1984 edition. Nearly 700 pages of somewhat over-the-top information but a LOT of photos including a good number of contemporary boxes! You can often find them in second-hand shops for around £10 each. Hywel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Martin Posted November 28, 2012 Share Posted November 28, 2012 A good source of old liveries, admittedly black and white, are old volumes of 'Jane's Freight Containers'. I have a 1975-6 and a 1984 edition. Nearly 700 pages of somewhat over-the-top information but a LOT of photos including a good number of contemporary boxes! You can often find them in second-hand shops for around £10 each. Hywel Worth getting hold of. My collection is probably my best ever "book bargain": my local library were getting rid of a load of stock and they evidently weren't expecting anyone to be interested in old yearbooks like this. I got 12 copies, ranging from the 1st edition (1968-9) to the 18th (1987) for a pound each. To be honest, you don't really need a complete set to get most of the value out of it. Like several other Jane's yearbooks, quite a lot of the content remained the same from one year to the next. The second photo is showing wagons with either 3x20' or 1x40' and 1x20' (presumably the same as the old Hornby ones). Adrian Government port statistics contain some data on container sizes and I did a lot of work on size trends a couple of years ago. There are limits to what you can do with the data because of changes in the way that information was recorded at various times (for example, through most of the 80s and all of the 90s all containers were recorded as either 20' or 40', which actually meant 15'-24' long or 25'+). The general conclusion, though, is that in 1980 about 67% of boxes passing through British ports were 20-footers, 24% were 40-footers and the remainder were between 20 and 40 feet (a separate category at that time). By 1985, the ratio was 56%:44% 20-footers to 40-footers. In 1990 the ratio had actually shifted back towards 20-footers, 60%:40%. From then on, the ratio shifted towards 40-footers every year until it stabilised in about 2005. These figures only relate to boxes passing through UK ports, so they don't cover domestic traffic flows, which were still a big part of the BR business model in the 80s. The proportions of 20s to 40s would also differ between specific ports and flows, depending on which shipping lines and which sea routes were involved. This sort of thing isn't recorded in most years (although it was to some extent in 1975, albeit that so many containers were categorised as "unknown length" that the information isn't very useful). Nevertheless, it does provide a rough guide to the overall picture regarding container sizes. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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