tim@dy Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 I'm looking for photo's or drawings of DC 2 brakegear as fitted to 4 wheel wagons.I'm especially looking for photo's which show the brake lever cross shaft(under the headstock)and the toothed ratchet quadrant/brake release lever fitted to it. Thanks in advance. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Dear Tim I don't know all of the details of the different DC brake gear, but these may help http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrstarfish/e10e1d86b http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrstarfish/e73d1fe5 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/wagondetailspoetc/ea1d75b1 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/e1b5d5ff Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Nice pictures, Paul, but the first two are DCIII and the Pooley van is DCI. DCII is the one where the levers on either side are both at the same end, being on the ends of a single cross shaft. I don't have any photos of DCII either. There are some useful photos in Russell and in the Atkins et al. volume but, unfortunately the ratchet is almost always in shadow. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim@dy Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Thank you Paul for posting the photo's but unfortunately as Nick has stated non are of the DC 2 type of brake.Have you any photo's of Dia.013 china clay wagons with DC brakes,as these have DC 2 brakes fitted? Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 9, 2012 Share Posted December 9, 2012 Tim, Obviously a photo would be best but, if it's any help, the DCII ratchet and pawl is very simple, being much the same as on DCI though usually nearer the centre line. Unlike DCIII, there's no release mechanism or rodding from the other end of the wagon. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim@dy Posted December 9, 2012 Author Share Posted December 9, 2012 Nick You're quite right,a photo would be better but without one I'll have to guess what the toothed ratchet quadrant/brake release lever look like and their relationship with each other when mounted on the brake lever cross shaft. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Great Western Railway Journal No.62 has a description of the brake types and a good drawing of the DC3 setup on an underframe in the first part of the series on16ft covered goods wagons. No. 63 has a large-scale drawing of a V5 van with DC1 brakes. No diagrams with DC2, though. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there nothing in preservation that could be shown a camera lens ? I know its a dirty job but someone might be willing to do it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcm@gwr Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is it not worth contacting Castle ( of this parish) and finding out if Didcot has a DC2 fitted wagon? I'm sure he would be able to help if he can (and they have one) Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Is there nothing in preservation that could be shown a camera lens ? I know its a dirty job but someone might be willing to do it. Is it not worth contacting Castle ( of this parish) and finding out if Didcot has a DC2 fitted wagon?... You would think there was an example out there somewhere, wouldn't you? I've spent some time trying to find old topics in which we discussed DC brakegear and in which I and others posted various photos, though with little success. I think there's something wrong with the 'My content' search or, perhaps, there are posts from 2010-11 missing from the RMweb database. I'm not sure whether there were any photos of DCII amongst these, though. In a way, I'm not surprised by the lack of DCII photos. After all, relatively few wagons were fitted with DCII, and many of those were vacuum fitted and had clasp brakes. Indeed, it's quite widely believed that DCII was developed because it was not going to be easy to add vacuum fittings to DCI. The evolution of the DC brakes was quite rapid, spanning only a few years and most wagons fitted with DCI or DCII were eventually modified to a cross-corner form closely related to DCIII, or simply had separate lever brakes fitted to both sides or the more complex Morton form. Indeed, Didcot has an example of O13 but it is fitted with the later independent lever brakes complying with all the BoT's requirements: There is a large official photo of an O13 (92971) as built with DCII brakes in Russell's Appendix (Figure 37). Unfortunately, it is a three quarter view from the door end so most of the ratchet and associated bits are not visible. However, enough is visible to see that the lever on the central cross shaft and the operating rod leading to it from the ratchet is located at least three-quarters, probably more, along the length of the cross shaft (across the width of the wagon). So, with the brake lever to the right, the mechanism is towards the far side. Now, the ratchet and associated bits on DCII were probably more or less the same as those used on DCIII. The only real room for any difference is whether the ratchet was in form of a section of spoked wheel (i.e. a quadrant with triangular cutouts) as on DCI or if it was the later crescent or scythe shape seen on most DCIII gear. I suspect the latter as the DCI ratchet quadrant was a little different being also attached via a link to the swan neck. The photo below shows the ratchet end of a DCIII system (Didcot's P17): Although the photo shows DCIII, it could easily be converted to the DCII form as follows. Cut off the lever at the yellow V-shaped mark and remove the lower rod (link to other shapft/lever at other end of wagon), and extend the cross shaft to add another lever at the near end. That's my best guess until someone comes up with a surviving example... Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Nice pictures, Paul, but the first two are DCIII and the Pooley van is DCI. DCII is the one where the levers on either side are both at the same end, being on the ends of a single cross shaft. I don't have any photos of DCII either. There are some useful photos in Russell and in the Atkins et al. volume but, unfortunately the ratchet is almost always in shadow. Nick Dear Nick Thanks for the comment. If both handles are at the same end then this would have become illegal, so survivors are going to be very hard to find - as mentioned rebuilding with Morton type brake rigging was one solution to this problem. How about the arrangement on http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brflatrolwx I'll admit unlikely to be helpful? There are some preserved http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=4861 http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=69 or the Crocodile F http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=3947 Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hi Paul, Yes, DCIII was introduced to fit in with the rule about the levers being at the right hand end, but all DC types fell foul of the rule about only being able to be released from the side on which they were applied. All three types could be released from either side. I don't know very much about the larger bogie vehicles, but many do appear to have had an arrangement like those in your pictures, i.e. a brake lever at each corner. I imagine these would have been independent brakes on each bogie. Interesting to see that some survive as I would expect these might well have a similar ratchet arrangement to the DCII on smaller four-wheeled wagons. In any case, it would be good to get some detailed photos if anyone happens to be near one of these preserved examples. Would such large wagons have been treated as special cases as far as the regulations were concerned? Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim@dy Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Hi Nick Thanks for posting the photo of the DC3 brake.I think you're probablely correct and as you have said "until someone comes up with a photo of a surviving example...." Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted December 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2012 Emardee, (Model Railway Developments), do an underframe kit kit for DC2 & 3 braked vehicles of various wheelbases, maybe a drawing comes with them? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim@dy Posted December 11, 2012 Author Share Posted December 11, 2012 Thankyou Mike for the headsup about the MRD underframe kit. Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hi All, Me? late to the conversation? D'oh! Sorry... Right then - what ones do we recon is the best bet for a bit of DCII action people? The Crocodile F is a nice easy one as it is in the loco works with the boilers for No. 4079 and 1363 on it so relatively easy to get to. Answers on a postcard please... All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tim@dy Posted December 28, 2012 Author Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hi All, Me? late to the conversation? D'oh! Sorry... Right then - what ones do we recon is the best bet for a bit of DCII action people? The Crocodile F is a nice easy one as it is in the loco works with the boilers for No. 4079 and 1363 on it so relatively easy to get to. Answers on a postcard please... All the best, Castle Hi Castle Any photo's that you could take of DCII brakegear,especially of the ratchet/operating cam,would be very useful. Cheers Tim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Anything that gives a direct comparison with my DCIII photo in post #10 would be great. It would at least allow us to confirm or reject my speculation that DCII and DCIII ratchets were essentially the same. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Anything that gives a direct comparison with my DCIII photo in post #10 would be great. It would at least allow us to confirm or reject my speculation that DCII and DCIII ratchets were essentially the same. Nick Nick I had the same problem sometime back. This thread on the Scale4 site may have some answers for you. http://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2142 cheers Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Thanks, Mike, but neither that one or any of the links in it really address the question in this topic. We know what DCIII looks like and there are many extant examples, including my photo of Didcot's P17 above. We know also how DCII worked. The question is the exact form of the DCII ratchet/lever assembly, is it the same as DCIII but without the lower link on the lever that goes to the other end? There may be photos out there somewhere, or even a real example, but I've not seen one and no one else here has either. The problem is that, because most were converted at some time, there are few, if any, surviving examples of DCII on four wheel wagons. Castle's offer to photograph the Crocodile is helpful because this may well have a very similar ratchet/lever arrangement. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castle Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Hi All, If there are any other wagons you would like me to get to then let me know but I won't be on shed for a week or so. I hope this is ok. The wagon collection list and a few pictures are here: http://www.didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/guide/wagons.html All the best, Castle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I photographed an open c at Bridgenorth the other day, I think it has DC3 , but the detail shots may prove useful Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I photographed an open c at Bridgenorth the other day, I think it has DC3 , but the detail shots may prove useful... Very useful photos, thanks for posting them. Yes, it is DCIII and the first and last two photos show the Hayward patent slack adjuster, though from the photo in Atkins et al., I think there is a spring missing. According to the same source, the spring adjuster was added from some time during WW1. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steveb860 Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Missed one. Linkage from cross shaft Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I think I may have missed what you were interested in - see the comment recently added on http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwropenmerchandiseowv/ee8145e3 I have checked my photos but I didn't take the other end. It had been a long trip and the mineral wagons were far more interesting! It may still exist at the Severn Valley Railway. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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