Hornby 2 BIL

[Gwiwer]

Fair enough.  Queried because that isn't clear on the Flickr page where it states All Rights Reserved and credits the original photographer.

[Michael Delamar]

Hi Colin, thats right, and if its got the clickable blue writing underneath then its an embedded pic, think of it like youtube videos.

the only other slight thing and im sorry if I come across as a patronising git or calling anyone out...

 

just when quoting a post with a pic its best to delete the url in the quote so it doesnt appear twice.

 

Mike

[10800]

 

That must be a 2 NOL behind the 2 BIL and though the signal is off, a door appears to be open on the rear unit!  (It looks like the guard's door on the motor coach.) Amazing that two units were thought necessary for trains between Horsted Keynes and Seaford, although maybe the service was busier from Haywards Heath onwards and vice versa. 

I was thinking the same Colin, it's quite a different profile. I must build my Roxey 2NOL and run it with a 2BIL!

 

As for the size of the train, I assume that HK and Seaford were just convenient end stops for the service (like Ore) and all the action was between Haywards Heath and Lewes.

[Gwiwer]

The shot at Horsted Keynes is indeed a Bil + Nol formation which was very uncommon as Nols were generally kept on captive diagrams along the coast and not inter-worked with later types.  4-car trains were the norm on the HK - Seaford turn for some years after electrification.. There most certainly wan't a need for that north of Haywards Heath (other than for the Ardingly School trains) but there sometimes was south from there and over the Lewes - Newhaven section the trains could be quite busy at times.  Remember this was still back in the days before a significant majority of people had access to a car for daily travel.

 

4-car trains also provided the required capacity for the occasional organised rambling groups for whom HK was a popular destination and start / finish point.   As the use of a Nol was so unusual I suspect this might have been one of those occasions.

 

Edit : Spell-check please note "VERY" is a valid word and does not require changing after I hit "Post"  Grrrrrrrrr

Edited December 29, 2012 by Gwiwer

[SRman]

That photo might just give me the excuse to save some money and build my Roxey 2NOL as an unpowered 'dummy' unit to use in multiple with the Hornby BIL when it comes (soon, I hope! Rubs hands together in anticipation!)

[robertcwp]

Looking at the carriage workings from the 1950s, there were some scheduled 4-car trains to Horsted Keynes and even a 6 Bil working in the November 1959 carriage workings. In 1953, everything there was scheduled for Nols except one Bil working, though Bils and Nols often worked services scheduled for the other type.  By November 1959, the Nols had gone and the Bils were supplemented by Hals (though these were shown as Bil in the workings).

[Rugd1022]

A quick question from a 'Southern novice'... when did BILs last run into the east end bay at Reading (General)...? I've seen one or two shots of BR green liveried examples in the background of Diesel Hydraulics taken from the (old ) Up Main platform, alas not many though.

 

Ta in advance

[robertcwp]

A quick question from a 'Southern novice'... when did BILs last run into the east end bay at Reading (General)...? I've seen one or two shots of BR green liveried examples in the background of Diesel Hydraulics taken from the (old ) Up Main platform, alas not many though.

 

Ta in advance

David Brown's book gives July 1970 as the changeover date on the Reading line from Bil/Hal to Cor stock, itself displaced by Cig stock from January 1972.

[Metr0Land]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/6775869073/in/photostream/

[pete_mcfarlane]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rgadsdon/6775869073/in/photostream/

That's not a 2-Bil. It's one of the 1925 Eastern section suburban units that were converted in to 2 car deicing units. They lasted until the late 1970s. Nice photo though.

 

Edit: It's unit 011. There's another photo of it at Selhurst waiting to be scrapped in '70's spotting days on the Southern'. 

Edited December 29, 2012 by pete_mcfarlane

[Metr0Land]

That's not a 2-Bil. It's one of the 1925 Eastern section suburban units that were converted in to 2 car deicing units. They lasted until the late 1970s. Nice photo though.

 

Edit: It's unit 011. There's another photo of it at Selhurst waiting to be scrapped in '70's spotting days on the Southern'. 

Fair enough - it's just the pic title said 2BIL and I model north of the river.

[metadyneman]

It does make me laugh...The 2-NOLs did indeed work the coastway services and very good at it they were too alongside the BILs and in latter days the CORs.... why am I laughing?.. It's simple.. we now have the modern day equivalent of the NOLs on the coastway services.... the class 313... which has NOLavatory!

[Gwiwer]

David Brown's book gives July 1970 as the changeover date on the Reading line from Bil/Hal to Cor stock, itself displaced by Cig stock from January 1972.

Agree entirely.  Not only does DB know his stuff but I have contributed information from platform observations to some of the reference sources he uses through the SEG archives.  In general 8Cor replaced 8Bil (which included random Hal units) with the central gangways not joined and allowed to hang loosely against each other.  Passengers were not accustomed to walking through the train and it made splitting and attaching easier.  8Cor later appeared on a very few Coastway workings which had been 6Bil to cover peak or school traffic and where a single unit was considered insufficient; the gangways were similarly left unjoined.  Use of 8Cor on the coast ceased very quickly owing to the trains being over-length at most platforms.

[metadyneman]

.... and in those days Portslade and West Hove (to give it it's proper name) had proper platform roofs. Out of pure nostalgia on a very selfish point of view, has anyone on here got a picture of Portslade Station with it's original platform awnings? 

[Purley Oaks]

Also, can anyone say when the Southern Region got rid of "Ladies Only" compartments and their stickers?

Think it probably followed a 1974 Equality Act; a Wikipedia piece on British Railways Mark 1 gives the date as 1977.

I imagine those single compartments could have been quite intimidating for a lone woman - nowhere to go if a drunk got on and so on.

Looking forward to the 2Bil immensely.

mal

Edited December 30, 2012 by Purley Oaks

[robertcwp]

Think it probably followed a 1974 Equality Act; a Wikipedia piece on British Railways Mark 1 gives the date as 1977.

I imagine those single compartments could have been quite intimidating for a lone woman - nowhere to go if a drunk got on and so on.

Looking forward to the 2Bil immensely.

mal

The legislation in question was the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, which came into force at midnight on 31 December 1975.  By that time, there were few, if any, units left in service on the SR that had such compartments, but there were still Mark I non-gangwayed vehicles with Ladies Only compartments (normally the compartment in the BS next to the guard's van).  The Ladies Only designations were removed in the autumn of 1975, according to notes on the stock made at the time by Peter Neville, who was a commuter on the GN at the time. It had also been practice on at least some parts of BR to designate compartments as such on some services, notably overnight ones.  This would have been done by labelling and would also have been discontinued by no later than when the Act came into force.

[Purley Oaks]

The legislation in question was the Sex Discrimination Act 1975, which came into force at midnight on 31 December 1975. 

Thanks for the correction, Robert, knew it had to be around that time:)

[Southernman46]

Moving on a few years and slightly OT, the horrific murder of a young woman between Penge East and Shortlands in a EPB compartment on an Orpington - Vic service in 1981(?) resulted in wholesale changes to the distribution of compartment trailers amongst the EPB fleet. The all-comp trailers were removed from certain units and swapped with the open trailers from other units giving effectively a split open / compartmented fleet. The "all compartment" units were then only used in the peak.

 

I'm guessing Oldudders with his SR Ops experience at around that time would be able give more detail on this..............

Edited December 30, 2012 by Southernman46

[Metr0Land]

Those all compartment units also had a red stripe (IIRC somewhat indistinct and certainly less noticeable than catering red stripe). It was meant to denote which ones were all compartment but from memory there wasn't a lot of publicity so I'm not sure if Jane Public was actually aware of this?

[kintbury jon]

I think the general formation for an SR type 4EPB was DMBSO, TSO, SO, DMBSO.  The 55xx series was created being DMBSO, SO, SO, DMBSO.  The idea was that they would be the first batch withdrawn which I think they were.

 

The 2EPBs were more of a problem as they had half a coach as compartments but again, I think they were prioritized on peak hour workings. 

Edited December 30, 2012 by kintbury jon

[Oldddudders]

Moving on a few years and slightly OT, the horrific murder of a young woman between Penge East and Shortlands in a EPB compartment on an Orpington - Vic service in 1981(?) resulted in wholesale changes to the distribution of compartment trailers amongst the EPB fleet. The all-comp trailers were removed from certain units and swapped with the open trailers from other units giving effectively a split open / compartmented fleet. The "all compartment" units were then only used in the peak.

 

I'm guessing Oldudders with his SR Ops experience at around that time would be able give more detail on this..............

It was a few years after this - 23rd March 1988 says a link I found to the London Evening Standard, and her killer has never been caught. So the swapping of trailers happened really very late in the life of the 4-EPBs - the 465s were only a few years away. I had moved on to a different sort of role by then, remote from operating, and was busy writing investment submissions for NSE South Central.

[Ben04uk]

I know this is slightly off topic, but is there is a good source, or publication, which details which type of SR EMU's worked each traffic diagram on each line/route in the period during 1970s/80s/90s? For example, I believe '4 Cor' stock used to work the 'Coastway' services emanating from Brighton in the early 1970's before they were displaced by SR Design '2 Hap' stock which in turn were replaced by BR Standard '2 Hap' stock in 1976 (ref: 'Slam Doors on the Southern', Michael Welch). I know '4-Cep' stock worked in the area during this time as well but I presume they were on services from London Victoria rather than local services.

 

I am particularly interested in the Eastbourne to Hastings line during this period.

 

Is one of David Brown's book my best bet?

Edited December 30, 2012 by Ben04uk

[robertcwp]

I know this is slightly off topic, but is there is a good source, or publication, which details which type of SR EMU's worked each traffic diagram on each line/route in the period during 1970s/80s/90s? For example, I believe '4 Cor' stock used to work the 'Coastway' services emanating from Brighton in the early 1970's before they were displaced by SR Design '2 Hap' stock which in turn were replaced by BR Standard '2 Hap' stock in 1976 (ref: 'Slam Doors on the Southern', Michael Welch). I know '4-Cep' stock worked in the area during this time as well but I presume they were on services from London Victoria rather than local services.

 

I am particularly interested in the Eastbourne to Hastings line during this period.

 

Is one of David Brown's book my best bet?

The David Brown books only go up until 1983 and don't include great detail on which stock worked which lines.

 

Roughly, from 1970, stock on the Eastbourne-Hastings line would typically have been:

 

4 Cig on through workings from London, with occasional appearances by 4 Cep unlts in the 1970s and possibly very early 1980s.

 

2 Bil/2 Hal on local workings until 1970/71.

 

4 Cor on local workings in 1971/2.

 

SR 2 Hap 1972-6

 

BR 2 Hap, later formed in permanent pairs as 4 Cap, late 1970s and early 1980s

 

Vep and Cig stock from 1970s onwards.

 

Later (I forget when) most 4 Big units lost their buffets and had their compartments opened out, becoming 3 Cop for use on the Coastway services.

 

For example, the 1977 carriage workings show a mix of Hap, Vep and Cig on East Coastway workings from Brighton.

[phil-b259]

 

Later (I forget when) most 4 Big units lost their buffets and had their compartments opened out, becoming 3 Cop for use on the Coastway services.

 

That was a post privatization intative by Connex. Certainly in NSE days the remaining refurbished 4BIGs were still in use a buffet units with some semi permanently coupled up to a standard 4CIG unit for the non stop Vic - E Croydon - Brighton service (I think they were known as 8DIG units and branded as 'Capital Coast Express' units - replaced by Connex refurbished 319s with that little bar like area under the pantograph well)

[Bulleidnutter]

I have just finished my Replica 2HAP, Bachmann 2EPB is at this moment doing a few circuits. And the 2BIL looks too good to miss out on.

 

Not bad for a 1960    ish  South Western layout.