Hornby 2 BIL

[Ceptic]

Need a reference pic for the roof detail?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5398732955/in/photostream

I'm not quite sure, but, ISTR  the roof layout / details changed after the first*  (Ooops) third batch.

.I.e. The earlier*  (Oooops x 2) Last batchs' T/Vents were nearer to, or on,the roof's centre line **

 

*Note to self...Needs checking out....

 

Edited after checking  photographic references / evidence.

 

1st. Batch  Unit Nos. 2001 - 2010. (Originally 1891 - 1910) ..  Off-set T/Vents (towards compt. side), Large flat cooling vents over cab / van. Different window / door layout on corridor side. Off White applied to corridor / compartment panelling. 7 full-size compts./ smaller van compt. on DMBT, Clipped /  slim, oblong shanked buffers.  http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3820543076/

 

2nd. Batch ..... Nos. 2011 - 2048... Off-set  T/Vents. Corridor window / door / compt. layout as Hornby's model. Off White corridor panelling. 6 full-size +1 Coupe compt./ longer van on DMBT. Clipped, slim shanked Buffers  http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/6448219213/in/set-72157603648747922/

 

3rd. Batch  ...Nos.2049 - 2116......Off-set T/Vents. Corridor window layout / compts. as Hornby. Corridor panelling reverted to stained Walnut. Some units had the Heavy Duty S/C Buffers retro-fitted       https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5398732955/in/photostream  http://southernrailway.net/search/display_pic.php?search_fd0=34435

 

4th. Batch  2117 - 2152..... T/Vents on roof C/L*. Corridor window layout / compts. as Hornby. Heavy duty S/C Buffers fitted  http://southernrailway.net/search/display_pic.php?search_fd0=34437

http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5934429687/in/set-72157603648747922/

 

References and Acknowledgements 

 

* See fresh photos in the February 2013 'Hornby Magazine's supplement, titled 'Hornby Product Guide 2013' .On page 14, Brian Stephenson's photo shows unit 2117, with roof centre T/Vents coupled with an unidentified, 1st batch, 2-BIL with T/Vents off-set, although a page 17 pic, also by Brian Stephenson,.shows unit 2115, with central vents, forming a similar formation.

 

As always, it's the details that provide the minefield

 

Many thanks must go to to Robert Carroll for providing such an accessible source of reference. Also to Michael Welch's books 'A Southern Electric Album' and 'Slam Doors on the Southern', and to David Brown's 'Southern Electric', Vols. 1 & 2

. 

** P.S.

All this pre ambling (On my part) has, today, been thrown into complete disarray / confusion, after viewing the RM's Feb. 2013 edition, which reviews Hornby's NRM 2-BIL No. 2090. The T/Vents appear to be  on the roof's centre line ?. 

 

Retiring now, to a dark, distant corner...

I may be some time...there

Edited January 13, 2013 by Ceptic

[Gwiwer]

The first ten had different roof detail.  They also had different internal, side and underfloor details.  I'm not aware of any other changes in the main batches from 2011 - 2152 but it would be something of a surprise if there were no detail differences in all of those.  

 

Anyone modelling unit 2024 should be aware that it ran with an "early" driving trailer coach from 2008 in its later years after its own was destroyed.

[phil gollin]

Having read the relevant sections more closely (the mag only arrived yesterday!), the large pictures in the 'Reviews' section are of BR liveried unit 2090, which it appears is the 'NRM' version.  The 'News' section contains smaller pictures of 2114 (SR livery), with part of a BR liveried unit also visible (unit number not visible, but car number looks like S12167S) - most obvious difference visible in the picture between this one and 2090 being that the shoebeams are wood coloured - on 2090 they are black.

 

Thanks, very kind of you.

 

.

[Guest Belgian]

Apologies if I'm repeating something posted elsewhere, but if I recall correctly, one of the vehement criticisms of the Hornby 4VEP was the use of an ex-Lima pancake motor.

 

I have just read the Todeller review of the 2BIL and it says 'The units are powered by the standard Hornby multiple unit motor bogie, as found in the 4-VEP.'

 

Can anyone enlighten me: is this now considered to be a satisfactory unit?

 

JE

[dinkyme]

Apologies if I'm repeating something posted elsewhere, but if I recall correctly, one of the vehement criticisms of the Hornby 4VEP was the use of an ex-Lima pancake motor.

 

I have just read the Todeller review of the 2BIL and it says 'The units are powered by the standard Hornby multiple unit motor bogie, as found in the 4-VEP.'

 

Can anyone enlighten me: is this now considered to be a satisfactory unit?

 

JE

You should read this week newsletter on Kernow Model railway web site.

[Budgie]

Apologies if I'm repeating something posted elsewhere, but if I recall correctly, one of the vehement criticisms of the Hornby 4VEP was the use of an ex-Lima pancake motor.

Take a look at service sheet HSS 367B. The Hornby 4VEP does not use an ex-Lima pancake motor. 

[Gwiwer]

You should read this week newsletter on Kernow Model railway web site.

Which for the uninitiated an those not already subscribed can be seen here : http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/index.html?action=23

[frobisher]

Apologies if I'm repeating something posted elsewhere, but if I recall correctly, one of the vehement criticisms of the Hornby 4VEP was the use of an ex-Lima pancake motor.

 

I have just read the Todeller review of the 2BIL and it says 'The units are powered by the standard Hornby multiple unit motor bogie, as found in the 4-VEP.'

 

Can anyone enlighten me: is this now considered to be a satisfactory unit?

As others have said, it doesn't use the Lima pancake motor - Hornby haven't reused that on any of their re-released Lima models but all of those have new 5 pole motors which are often referred to as the Limby motor bogie. The problem with the 4VEP and this motor bogie seems to be there is insufficent weight applied over it, which coupled with the drag of the inside bearing bogies in a 4 car unit meant that they could be a bit gutless. Some improvement in performance could be got by a rearrangement of the traction tyres, and the second batch seemed to perform better based upon comments hereabouts. However, the same motor boigie was used in the 5BEL without traction tyres but with a substantial metal housing over it and performance is reported to be good. I'd suspect that that regime was continued onto the 2BIL.

[Ceptic]

As my Ol' Pappy used t' say,...

 

"The Proof izin the Pudding"

 

Bye the way, I've seen no mention of traction tyres, on this model.

Does the B/Belle feature these ?, as I haven't bought one,...yet...

 

Regards.

[Ian Hargrave]

NO.It's performance is quite superb,by the way.The upcoming 2-Bil will,I'm sure,be the same.

[ChrisH]

Following on from Ceptics excellent piece on roof detail, for those looking at renumbering beware of 2116.

 

This unit had individual short curved rainstrips above each door, look at the one above the cab door & repeat above all doors.

 

Just spotted that Alan Williams in Southern Electric Album notes that this unit had a steel roof.

 

Chris

[5Bel]

Hi Colin,

 

Just had a look at the video clip on the Hornby facebook page. The bogie under the trailer car is indeed a dummy motor bogie as opposed to a pick up bogie. As for the guardirons, I agree with you that none of the Bils were fitted with angled ones. Lets hope the production run is correct, otherwise it will be out with the replacement pick up bogie!!

 

Cheers for now, Ian.

[Guest Belgian]

As others have said, it doesn't use the Lima pancake motor - Hornby haven't reused that on any of their re-released Lima models but all of those have new 5 pole motors which are often referred to as the Limby motor bogie. The problem with the 4VEP and this motor bogie seems to be there is insufficent weight applied over it, which coupled with the drag of the inside bearing bogies in a 4 car unit meant that they could be a bit gutless. Some improvement in performance could be got by a rearrangement of the traction tyres, and the second batch seemed to perform better based upon comments hereabouts. However, the same motor boigie was used in the 5BEL without traction tyres but with a substantial metal housing over it and performance is reported to be good. I'd suspect that that regime was continued onto the 2BIL.

I obviously didn't recall correctly: good. Thank you all for allaying my fears, particularly Frobisher, for such an erudite explanation.

 

JE

Edited January 12, 2013 by Belgian

[SRman]

As an aside, I have just been watching an old (1952) black and white movie on TV called 'Ghost Ship'. It is largely based around Shoreham and includes occasional shots around a station with a narrow wooden-boarded platform with nice Southern concrete lamps - I'm not actually sure if it is the real Shoreham. Several 2 BILs and NOLs appear during the movie although I didn't record their unit numbers (too slow!).

[Ceptic]

Hi Ceptic,

 

I would have a good look at the pictures in the reviews of the 2 BIL and tell me if I am wrong about the model's motor bogie and trailing pick-up bogie being identical.  Hope I am. 

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin.

 

I must admit, I've seen nothing, yet, to allay your fears. There's a clip of the collector bogie on p. 171 in Feb's RM which, although not clear, seems to suggest a foot-board fitted to the inner end.

 

If this is anything to go by, both bogies are identical.   

http://www.Hornby.com/shop/2013-range/diesel-and-electric-locomotives-and-packs/r3162x-br-2-bil-car-emu-pack/

 

All the best,

Frank.

[Miss Prism]

The differences in the bogies are shown on the Nick Cambling drawings, which are the best 2-BIL drawings I know of. Shame if Hornby didn't refer to them.

[Miss Prism]

The Nick Campling drawings are in MRC April 1970, together with some good pictures and notes by Stevens-Stratten.

[Ceptic]

Following on from Ceptics excellent piece on roof detail, for those looking at renumbering beware of 2116.

 

This unit had individual short curved rainstrips above each door, look at the one above the cab door & repeat above all doors.

 

Just spotted that Alan Williams in Southern Electric Album notes that this unit had a steel roof.

 

Chris

An SR Official photo of 2116 appears on page 107 of David Brown's excellent 'Southern Electric, A New History', Vol.2.

 

When Chris says that the short,curved rainstrips were placed above every door, that includes the compartment side's doors...

 

Well spotted, young Chris

[talisman56]

 

http://www.semgonline.com/gallery/pics/rs_2104.jpg

 

This reduction in detail just isn't fair.

 

When the weather was cold or wet, the cursing of the motorman could be clearly heard on one of the following occurrences:

1) When trying to remove the headcode from the opal glass, the frame is frozen in situ;

2) When trying to fit the headcode, accumulation of ice prevents fitment of the frame;

3) When trying to fit or remove headcode, wind/rain causes the frame to slip through the motorman's hand and fall into the 4-foot.

 

- as related to me by my uncle, who had the privilege to drive the things on Coastway in the late 60s...

[talisman56]

the 2 of 2 BIL is refering to 2 coaches

similarly you get 3 HAP 3 coaches 4 VEP, 4 coaches etc etc

 

3Hap???

[talisman56]

So how much work to make a 2BIL into a 2 HAL?

 

XF

 

Forget it - the Power car on the 2Hal has individual compartments, and the corridor on the Driving Trailer is on the opposite side of the vehicle, apart from the difference in design of the cab ends, different buffers, shape of the windows, etc, etc...

[Gwiwer]

When the weather was cold or wet, the cursing of the motorman could be clearly heard on one of the following occurrences:

1) When trying to remove the headcode from the opal glass, the frame is frozen in situ;

2) When trying to fit the headcode, accumulation of ice prevents fitment of the frame;

3) When trying to fit or remove headcode, wind/rain causes the frame to slip through the motorman's hand and fall into the 4-foot.

 

- as related to me by my uncle, who had the privilege to drive the things on Coastway in the late 60s...

And woe betide the motorman who stepped onto the buffer and tried to change the stencil plate externally; more than one has slipped causing themselves injury and the train to be delayed or cancelled.  Opening the cab window was the only officially-sanctioned way to do it.

[talisman56]

Wasn't there just a change of name, in anycase i shall stay with GRI if only for the smell of roast beef !http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_404

 

The three 4GRI units were created in 1962 when three 4RES units (3056/65/68) had their full Restaurant vehicles converted to Buffet/Kitchen vehicles, with some seating (sort of a precursor to the Buffet vehicles in the 4BIG units which followed in 1964/65). The three 4GRI units were renumbered to 3086-88 when the rest of the RES units were withdrawn in 1964. The 4GRI units were withdrawn with the 4BUF units in 1972.

 

At least two of the Gatwick south sidings were full of stored 4GRI/BUF units for several months in 1972 - the numbers I clocked then did change so guess Gatwick was used as a staging point between wherever they come from and Selhurst where they were stripped for usable components (for the still-in-use 4CORs) and then despatched for scrapping...

Edited January 14, 2013 by talisman56

[Gwiwer]

The 4Res units were capable of and indeed designed for service of a full plated meal cooked and served to a laid-up table.  They ran thus with full restaurant car service between Waterloo and Portsmouth for around 30 years.  The 4Gri cars were a step back from that level of service which was under-used by the 1960s.  What worked in the 1930s didn't cut it thirty years on.  

 

The 4Gri griddle cars could serve hot snacks in a buffet style environment rather than at waited tables and while they could be used for a full meal this was really beyond their design capacity and not what was intended.  They were from 1964 - 1971 on Victoria - Sussex Coast commuter services formed Cor-Gri-Cor whereupon the regular clientele would recover from their City day over a gin and tonic with maybe cheese on toast.  There was no need (and not really time) for a full meal on those trips. 

 

Gatwick Sidings were used as a staging point along with other locations including Barnham for these units as they were steadily taken away from the SR to Briton Ferry in South Wales (IIRC) for scrapping.  3142 was rescued from Barnham for preservation but not before a minor electrical fire had damaged one vehicle which was replaced with ex 6Res S11159 which had latterly run in 4Cor 3159 IIRC.

[SRman]

And woe betide the motorman who stepped onto the buffer and tried to change the stencil plate externally; more than one has slipped causing themselves injury and the train to be delayed or cancelled.  Opening the cab window was the only officially-sanctioned way to do it.

 

Was that the reason certain batches of Bulleid SUBs and the 'Tin' HALs had the extra handrails above and beside the windscreens as well as proper step plates on the tops of the buffer shanks?