Hornby 2 BIL

[Oldddudders]

I owe Hornby an apology.

Not so. Your initial investigations led you to conclude the bogie was not fitted with pickups. Hornby owes you a debt of care in selling you a model that operates as they intended. You've paid full whack for a faulty product. The apology should be the other way round.

[Budgie]

Refer to my previous  post #726  about poor soldered  joints that could be the  reason for your problem, but if the power bogie mounting is the same as the 5 BEL then be careful when you unclip it as it can drop down suddenly and more joints may break.

 

FYI on the Bel the power bogie is attached by a plastic  swallow tail spigot  the ends are accessible thro a small hole in the top of the chassis, use long nosed pliers to compress the 'tail' of the spigot. looking at pics of the BIL in the RM the interior arrangement looks the same as the 5BEL

 

But of course the problem could be that the pickups are not contacting the wheel backs correctly!

 

 

Not so. Your initial investigations led you to conclude the bogie was not fitted with pickups. Hornby owes you a debt of care in selling you a model that operates as they intended. You've paid full whack for a faulty product. The apology should be the other way round.

So I took it apart, carefully, and found that the black lead had broken just after the soldered joint with the pickups. I had to release the interior moulding to allow more of the wires to become available at the motor bogie end. Stripping a little of the insulation back was difficult, but I did it, and I soldered that little bit to the original place where the wire had been soldered. Then I tested it, and the motor ran. So I refixed the interior, and put the thing minus the body on the test track. It runs very sweetly now. I shall not refix the body until I've put a DCC chip into it.

 

I still say that the motor bogie is not the same as that on the Brighton Belle, because the 2Bil motor bogie has a NEM pocket on it, whereas the 5Bel one hasn't. Why not, I don't know.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Budgie

[Stevelewis]

 

 

So I took it apart, carefully, and found that the black lead had broken just after the soldered joint with the pickups. I had to release the interior moulding to allow more of the wires to become available at the motor bogie end. Stripping a little of the insulation back was difficult, but I did it, and I soldered that little bit to the original place where the wire had been soldered. Then I tested it, and the motor ran. So I refixed the interior, and put the thing minus the body on the test track. It runs very sweetly now. I shall not refix the body until I've put a DCC chip into it.

 

I still say that the motor bogie is not the same as that on the Brighton Belle, because the 2Bil motor bogie has a NEM pocket on it, whereas the 5Bel one hasn't. Why not, I don't know.

Well then  I am  glad  to be of  assistance, I think you will agree now  you  have  seen  them  that  the  soldered  joints  are  very  fragile!

 

When I say  the  bogie  is  the  same  as  the  5Bel  I refer  to  the   actual  construction and  design of it  , the  fact  that the  Bel doesnt  have  a NEM socket is really  just  a cosmetic  thing.  There  are not  many who  have  the  facility to  run  a  10 BEL  although  one of my  friends  does...., the  coupling  was  easily  achieved  with  the  use  of  Kadees which are easily fitted  to   the BEL .

 

HINT if any one does thing of running  a 10BEL best performance is achieved  with the 2 power cars coupled  nose to nose in the  centre of the 10 car trains... but  we  digress here!!!

[Guest maxthemapman]

With CEPS, EPBs, DEMUs, and (flawed) VEPS all available, Southern Railway fans get their first run-of-the-mill EMU, of course it is going to be popular.

[Oldddudders]

With CEPS, EPBs, DEMUs, and (flawed) VEPS all available, Southern Railway fans get their first run-of-the-mill EMU, of course it is going to be popular.

Important point. The trade tends to suggest that BR is the era of most sales, so it is no great surprise that the BIL is the first "heritage" EMU - and if the SR version does prove most popular then we may reap all sorts of benefits in future. As my pre-order is SR, DCC-fitted, I may have a bit of a wait, but I can cope, I think.

[Budgie]

Well then  I am  glad to be of assistance, I think you will agree now you have seen them that the soldered joints are very fragile!

Yes.

 

When I say the bogie is the same as the 5Bel I refer to the actual construction and design of it, the fact that the Bel doesn't have a NEM socket is really just a cosmetic thing. There are not many who have the facility to run a 10 BEL, although one of my friends does...., the coupling was easily achieved with the use of Kadees which are easily fitted to the BEL.

 

HINT if anyone does thing of running a 10BEL best performance is achieved with the 2 power cars coupled nose to nose in the centre of the 10 car trains... but we digress here!!!

OK, I'll accept that. Actually, I have the space to run 10Bel on my garden railway, and that is something I want to do, so I'll bear your hint in mind. I wonder how running 10Bil would work. I'll have to save up my pension for a while before I can do that!

[bazza.]

Having read all the scare stories about possible supply problems, i went straight to MZ Holborn this afternoon and bought two BR green 2BILs, one of which was the NRM version. Expecting high demand, i had already pre-ordered two units with another shop two weeks ago, but now we hear of trade orders being reduced and rationed, raising doubt as to whether my order could be fulfilled, if they can supply, i will buy those two as well. I didn't want to miss out and i've hedged my bets, but i feel sorry for all the other traders having to stand aside and watch Modelzone/Hornby cream off the initial trade, this is most unfair. I don't mind paying the full price, if the model is good enough, and these units are real beauties. Both ran perfectly smoothly and steadily, with plenty of weight in the power car, and yes, all power car wheels collect current. I was quite vocal in my criticism of their 4VEP, but this has been a huge turnaound and a vast improvement, this new model looks good from all angles.

     Some minor issues, someone raised concerns about the arrangement of the DTC pick-up bogie, perhaps this can be explored and discussed? Secondly, did my eyes deceive me, but i thought the NRM version was shown with yellow panels in the catalogue? The "Design Clever" roof vents are neatly done, but as expected there is no under-cut, this might bother some to replace them, however a quick fix would be to draw a black line each side. Apart from this i'm 95% satisfied and very happy, they are on to a winner with these models, if they can produce enough, but please Hornby, be nice to all the other shops.

 

                                                                      Cheers, Brian. 

Hi Brian,

 

Are the BR 2BIL and the NRM 2BIL models the same colour green? As some people thought that the Hornby advertisemnts were showing them in different shades af green livery.

 

Still waiting for my two models to arrive.

 

Regards

 

Bazza

[Gwiwer]

So far as I can tell from Hornby's promotional illustrations the two BR ones are the same slightly pale shade of green.  The actual models - where they have been shown so far - appear marginally darker but unless the unit number is sighted it's hard to tell whether one is looking as 2090 or her sister.

 

At one stage I had in my head that the BR green one would be released with SYP but that must have been a brainfart as nothing anywhere else has suggested as much that I am aware of.

[Re6/6]

When I say  the  bogie  is  the  same  as  the  5Bel  I refer  to  the   actual  construction and  design of it  , the  fact  that the  Bel doesnt  have  a NEM socket is really  just  a cosmetic  thing.  There  are not  many who  have  the  facility to  run  a  10 BEL  although  one of my  friends  does...., the  coupling  was  easily  achieved  with  the  use  of  Kadees which are easily fitted  to   the BEL .

 

HINT if any one does thing of running  a 10BEL best performance is achieved  with the 2 power cars coupled  nose to nose in the  centre of the 10 car trains... but  we  digress here!!!

 

Advice duly noted Steve, thanks. We'll need a 10BEL set for Balcombe....also 8BILs..!

 

Here are some snaps of a BB motor bogie (with shoebeams removed). I got it as an experiment for using in the 6PUL/6PAN sets that I'm scratchbodging. The experiment is with cut'n'shutting some Hornby Maunsells and Kirk bits with some scratchbuilding thrown in. So far, so good.

 

 

 

P4ing looks to be a reasonably straightforward job. The fore and aft stretcher bars and the four centre brackets will have to be cut and spaced outwards.

 

 

For the rest of the BBelle trailer coaches, drop in pinpoint wheelsets will fit straight away.

Edit: This will need further investigation as another set tried was a bit tight. Apologies.

 

[Xerces Fobe2]

I have been using these motor bogies in a number of my EMU's for some time and they work well.  Just be aware of how strong the magnet is as as I trashed a DCC chip when it picked up a stray small drill bit left behind after an "engineering possession"!

 

XF

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Bazza,

    I've got the two green ones ( BR and NRM BR ) here in the flesh, they are both in a slightly darkish medium shade of green, i'd say they've used the same paint on both. The colour looks right for 1950s finish, they both carry the post-1956 emblem, changing to early emblem should be easy. The colour is slightly flat finish, i might spray one with satin or semi-gloss varnish, or else one could be re-sprayed into the more olive green shade of the 1960s, plenty of variations on these units. You can add a yellow panel to either shade, although the full yellow end version, should only go on the later shade. It's darker than the re-productions on the boxes, and presumably the catalogue, but we all know how cameras can lie? My two are coupled up in the bay and about to depart for Bognor Regis, there goes the "ding-ding" from the guard and off they glide, slight whine from the traction motors as they pick up speed, i can hear compressors ticking away too . . . . . .   :-)

 

                                                         Cheers, Brian.

[Fenman]

Where BRM got the idea of 'Killer' 2BIL from I do not know. The roof detail is poor with the longitudinal 'handrail' on the roof masquerading as the lighting conduit is balanced on the other side of the ventilators by a vestigial moulding of the other lighting conduit. The ventilators seem over-scale due to the relief-angle, encroaching on the moulded-on conduit detail. The trailer coach pick-up bogie has the steps in the wrong position - in fact it isn't a trailing pick-up bogie at all - as witnessed by the brake rigging being external to the wheels.

 

Not just BRM; there's a rave review from Hornby magazine as well (which is, of course, nothing to do with Hornby). Both praise the level and quality of the detail. Both refer to what they describe as correctly differentiated bogies.

 

Then again, BRM describes the SR model as being in Malachite, so maybe I shouldn't put so much faith in them.

 

I'm reserving judgement until I have mine in my own hands!

 

Paul

[Oldddudders]

Hi Bazza,

    I've got the two green ones ( BR and NRM BR ) here in the flesh, they are both in a slightly darkish medium shade of green, i'd say they've used the same paint on both. The colour looks right for 1950s finish, they both carry the post-1956 emblem, changing to early emblem should be easy. The colour is slightly flat finish, i might spray one with satin or semi-gloss varnish, or else one could be re-sprayed into the more olive green shade of the 1960s, plenty of variations on these units. You can add a yellow panel to either shade, although the full yellow end version, should only go on the later shade. It's darker than the re-productions on the boxes, and presumably the catalogue, but we all know how cameras can lie? My two are coupled up in the bay and about to depart for Bognor Regis, there goes the "ding-ding" from the guard and off they glide, slight whine from the traction motors as they pick up speed, i can hear compressors ticking away too . . . . . .   :-)

 

                                                         Cheers, Brian.

Did BILs ever have ding-ding? Not convinced!

[Brian Kirby]

Well, it's NIL BIL for me so far, I did read a review in my friend's BRM yesterday though.

 

Where BRM got the idea of 'Killer' 2BIL from I do not know. The roof detail is poor with the longitudinal 'handrail' on the roof masquerading as the lighting conduit is balanced on the other side of the ventilators by a vestigial moulding of the other lighting conduit. The ventilators seem over-scale due to the relief-angle, encroaching on the moulded-on conduit detail. The trailer coach pick-up bogie has the steps in the wrong position - in fact it isn't a trailing pick-up bogie at all - as witnessed by the brake rigging being external to the wheels. well let's face it, these are bogies from the Brighton Belle plus NEM sockets. That is why the motor coach has the wrong type of guard irons.

 

I can sort all the above issues out, but this bodes ill. To paraphrase: "If you toletrate this, your steam locos will be next". (With apologies the the Manic Street Preachers.)

 

Colin

 

Chillax Colin,

      After three glasses of whisky, these problem won't seem so immense. Yes, there have been compromises, but let's not put people off, these are still good models and most modellers won't be au fait with the finer details, that's assuming they were all the same? I too can't see the point in this NRM release, it's the same apart from the running numbers and the fact they've left off the first-class door numbers, i'm sure i saw yellow panels in the catalogue, which would have set it more apart. I would like you to explain the differences on the trailer pick-up bogie and what we need to do to fix it, i remember the same issue when building the old Kirk kits, it's all a bit dark and murky down there.  :-)

                                                                                      Cheers, Brian.

[Brian Kirby]

Did BILs ever have ding-ding? Not convinced!

 

Just a little third-rail fantasy ! Surely the guard gave right-away with a bell, farty-noise buzzers were on DMUs?  :-)  BK

[pete_mcfarlane]

Well, it's NIL BIL for me so far, I did read a review in my friend's BRM yesterday though.

 

Where BRM got the idea of 'Killer' 2BIL from I do not know.

Having seen the real things in my local Modelzone yesterday I'd agree about the ventilators - they look far worse than the moulded ones of old. On top of this, some of the glazing in the examples in the Hornby advert hasn't been fitted properly, and the downpipes on the cab ends seem to be badly fitted and stand well proud of the body. Why not mould them on, and avoid these problems.

 

It also has vast numbers of "rivets". The steel sheeting on the real thing is held in place by screws, which stand slight proud of the body. Hornby, for all their 'design clever' cost savings have spent a fair amount of development time covering the model with rivets, like a WW1 era battleship.

 

I'm confused by the design decisions they've made - there's no logic as to what is a separate component, and what is moulded on. And some of the separate detail, like the downpipes and the roof conduits would have been better off as moulded on detail - it would look more accurate and save costs.

[Oldddudders]

The DMU-type equipment was only generally introduced on SR EMUs about 1970-ish, I think, so I'm not at all sure BILs ever got it. Prior to that the guard waved a green flag!

 

Someone will know!

[Brian Kirby]

Having seen the real things in my local Modelzone yesterday I'd agree about the ventilators - they look far worse than the moulded ones of old. On top of this, some of the glazing in the examples in the Hornby advert hasn't been fitted properly, and the downpipes on the cab ends seem to be badly fitted and stand well proud of the body. Why not mould them on, and avoid these problems.

 

It also has vast numbers of "rivets". The steel sheeting on the real thing is held in place by screws, which stand slight proud of the body. Hornby, for all their 'design clever' cost savings have spent a fair amount of development time covering the model with rivets, like a WW1 era battleship.

 

Sorry Pete, i disagree, with the old moulded-on vents of yesteryear, you only got the top half of the ventilator, the rest had disappeared into the roof, hence they looked too flat. How are you going to convert all the "rivets" into "screwheads", isn't this taking things a bit too far?       BK

[Fenman]

I too can't see the point in this NRM release, it's the same apart from the running numbers and the fact they've left off the first-class door numbers

 

It gives you a chance to support the NRM with your hobby spending?

 

Paul

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

 

I'll need a fair few single malts to take my mind off it all! As for the trailing pick-up bogie, see here: http://www.southernelectric.org.uk/preservation/news/2004-shildon.html The 2 BILs, apart from the first ten, had identical bogies.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin,

     Thanks for the link, this bogie will require further investigation. Wasn't the Kirk "motor bogie" sideframe in fact two pairs of trailing pick-up bogies? How'd the show go?       BK

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

 

I never used a Kirk motor bogie moulding, so I can't answer your question. Despite their basic-ness, the Kirk trailing pick-up bogies are correctly shaped with shallower side frames than the motor bogies. You just can't get them any more. Roxey Mouldings do an etched frame /whitemetal detail one as used in their 2 NOL kit though.

 

Well that was the point, as far as i know Kirk never did make a proper motor bogie sideframe, the kit just gave you two of the trailer pick-up bogies and two of the inner 8ft type. So if the Hornby can't be adapted, there may be some merit in using a spare Kirk type, although i'd rather correct the Hornby original?  BK

[Southernman46]

The DMU-type equipment was only generally introduced on SR EMUs about 1970-ish, I think, so I'm not at all sure BILs ever got it. Prior to that the guard waved a green flag!

 

Someone will know!

Yup - they were still green flagging 4-SUB's away right up until the last............late 1981 (?)

[Gwiwer]

Not quite sure what's happened but I have over 20 email reply notifications which quote text that doesn't appear in any posts above.  Perhaps those posts were deleted or there has been a technical glitch.

 

Just to flag one issue that arose namely that SR 1930s units of any kind never had driver-guard bell signals.  They were equipped with "Loudaphone" speaking devices but the guard used and the driver relied upon flag signals to control the train.  There was no "ding-ding".  

[Brian Kirby]

Hi Brian,

 

I never realised that the Kirk 2 BIL had two trailer bogies included in it. History is almost repeating itself now then! Re. bogie conversion, I can't see an easy way of converting a Hornby motor bogie side-frame to become a trailer one. Cutting off and replacing the brake draw-gear would help, buthat still leaves the over-depth side frames. I still cannot find a photo of a unit with such chunky shoe beams either. There should be tie-bars between the W-irons too.

 

Probably I am being too picky in my comments on the Hornby 2 BIL for most people, but this is a brand-new model, riddled with (unnecessary) minor mistakes.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

So when you built your own Kirk 2BIL, you must have used someone else's bogies, like Branchlines or BSL, whoops i mean Phoenix, whoops i mean Southern Electric Group?     BK

[Brian Kirby]

Just to flag one issue that arose namely that SR 1930s units of any kind never had driver-guard bell signals.  They were equipped with "Loudaphone" speaking devices but the guard used and the driver relied upon flag signals to control the train.  There was no "ding-ding".  

 

Dunnow where i got that from then, must have been from riding around on 4CEP units or maybe 501s on the North London Line? So we won't need a ding-ding on a 2BIL sound chip, just a few whistles!      BK