Dapol Class 121 and 122 in OO gauge

[cctransuk]

"Leaf Green" is my unofficial approximation of one shade (2), although it is an officially recognized colour. When I was researching and building Class 126 Inter-City units, some early 70xxx units seemed to be in (1)"EMU" green and others in a slightly deeper shade (my (2) Leaf Green theory). Class 126 cars in the 50xxx series seem to have appeared in either both the (2) Leaf Green or darker still (3) Brunswick Green, the last built (including the two 59xxx buffet cars?) were probably in (4) BR Olive Green, as were any subsequent repaints in the 60s. The various batches of Class 120 Cross-Country sets seem to have gone through all these various changes of shade, as did the Class 116 suburban sets. Which DMU does one paint in Precision's "Pre-1954 green", it must surely only apply to EMUs originally, until 1956???                 BK

Phoenix pre-1954 is a bluish lighter green that I certainly recognise as having been used on early DMUs - mainly, I think, on BR(WR). (I note that Phoenix do not currently offer their BR DMU shades). Railmatch do :- BR Early Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Original bright malachite shade pre-1961 and BR Later Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Dark green, later standard shade

in enamel.

 

I have ordered both to see how they compare with the Phoenix colours.

 

I'll know the correct colour when I see it; for some reason, the Lima GWR railcar in BR green is at the back of my mind;

https://www.google.gr/search?q=Lima+gwr+railcar&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibybfuqYTWAhXFCMAKHcu-APkQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=659#imgrc=huCdi7Tgim8k5M:

 

I also have Phoenix Early EMU green - I've never opened the tin, but I will do so when we get back from holiday.

 

Who'd have thought that repainting the Dapol model would be so complicated - I think that the Mr. Muscle oven cleaner / paint remover will be required at some point !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood (in sunny Rhodes)

[dibber25]

Phoenix pre-1954 is a bluish lighter green that I certainly recognise as having been used on early DMUs - mainly, I think, on BR(WR). (I note that Phoenix do not currently offer their BR DMU shades). Railmatch do :- BR Early Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Original bright malachite shade pre-1961 and BR Later Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Dark green, later standard shade

in enamel.

 

I have ordered both to see how they compare with the Phoenix colours.

 

I'll know the correct colour when I see it; for some reason, the Lima GWR railcar in BR green is at the back of my mind;

https://www.google.gr/search?q=Lima+gwr+railcar&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibybfuqYTWAhXFCMAKHcu-APkQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=659#imgrc=huCdi7Tgim8k5M:

 

I also have Phoenix Early EMU green - I've never opened the tin, but I will do so when we get back from holiday.

 

Who'd have thought that repainting the Dapol model would be so complicated - I think that the Mr. Muscle oven cleaner / paint remover will be required at some point !!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood (in sunny Rhodes)

 

 

I think you'll find the Railmatch early DMU green is pretty much right for the Gloucester cars. It is what I have always used - in one case I lightened it slightly with a spot of white for the slightly faded look but I don't know that it was any great improvement. I've not used the Phoenix DMU colours - I've been wary of their shades ever since the Stroudley ochre I bought for a Jones Goods model, looked more like Marsh umber. I have Railmatch early green to use on an 'O' gauge 122. It will be interesting to see if it looks different on the larger scale model. In the end, it's all down to how our eyes see the shade and what looks right to me won't necessarily look right to you. (CJL)

[keefer]

does colour of base coat (undercoat/primer/previous finish) make much difference with greens?

only i've read that it can make a big difference with certain colours (e.g. reds, yellows)

[Mad McCann]

does colour of base coat (undercoat/primer/previous finish) make much difference with greens?

only i've read that it can make a big difference with certain colours (e.g. reds, yellows)

 

Well, it's been stated in a couple of observations of 'economy green' mid-60s repaints of Britannias that the colour seemed different from the previous standard dark green. Perhaps this was down to fewer top-coats and probably less varnish too.   Possibly similar criteria applied to units in this period?

 

 

Dave.                                                                                                                                   

[The Johnster]

I'm not an expert, Keefer, but I'd say the answer to that depends on the type of paint and the base coat.  Thick oil based enamel paints used without thinners will cover pretty much anything (including a good bit of the detail, sometimes), and the more you thin it down the more the base will effect it.  Acrylics may need a few coats to build up both the surface finish and colour 'depth' you want.  

 

The varnish has an effect as well; to my eyes a dull matt finish looks brighter, perhaps more faded, than a high gloss which looks darker; it's the same as looking at a dry pavement and then a wet one, even in the same overall light.  I prefer a dull matt for most models and use a semi matt for ex-works shiny vehicles, never ever high gloss, but this is very much a matter of personal taste.  When I acquire highly glossed models, e.g. Oxford road vehicles, they get a coat of matt acrylic as soon as they are out of the box.

 

Incidentally I find a coat of acrylic matt varnish over a model before starting a paint job on it improves the 'keying' properties very much, especially with Wills plastic building kits.  This can be splashed on with broad strokes and a big brush, no finesse is required.

 

I generally paint under the layout lighting to assess the colour of the model, and use acrylics because I will not have the smell of oil based paint in the flat.  Even if I am repainting a vehicle a similar colour to the one it already is, I find more than one coat often necessary to achieve the colour I want evenly, and prefer to build them up with somewhat water diluted paint, leaving each coat several hours to go off in a centrally heated room so that I can assess the colour before deciding more is to go on.  This is definitely one of those fields where methodical patience is rewarded.

 

Then I go and spoil it all with weathering...

[The Johnster]

Well, it's been stated in a couple of observations of 'economy green' mid-60s repaints of Britannias that the colour seemed different from the previous standard dark green. Perhaps this was down to fewer top-coats and probably less varnish too.   Possibly similar criteria applied to units in this period?

 

 

Dave.                                                                                                                                   

 

 

I doubt it.  The economy repaints of Brits at Crewe were in the light of the locos only being expected to last a few years.  70013, the last, had a proper job done and looked lovely.

[dibber25]

I reckon when you're air-brushing and therefore applying very thin coats, the primer may well make at least a slight difference. If I'm bothered about the final colour - as I would be with a DMU - I'd use a white primer. I'd be less bothered about a steam loco - darker green anyway, tended to darken in service, and usually gets a degree of weathering. (CJL)

[valleymodeller]

I remember in the last 1960s and early 1970s there was a non=stop Pontypridd to Cardiff run on 116s. They did shift and sped down the line. Sadly the non stop runs stopped not long after and all trains after that were stoppers all the way.

[br2975]

I'd prefer, from the bottom of my South Walian heart, for Bachmann's 117 to be a 116.   And somebody should put green period WR modellers out of their misery with a 119, or 120, or even a 123.  Oops, wishlist alert; actually, I don't need any of these models, just think they'd sell well, ............................

And I agree 100% - but surely a Cl.116 Derby Unit would have a greater attraction nationwaide, than the Cl.117 Pressed Steel units.

.

Cl.116s have been allocated to such diverse locations as Plymouth, Bristol, Cardiff, Reading/Southall, Stratford, Tyseley, Glasgow to name but a few' in a similar vein, during their lifetime the Swindon Cross Country Cl.120 units could be seen from Cornwall to Inverness and right across the country from east to west. As for the Inter City Cl.123s.......well, I'd be even more biased, as they were to me the creme de la creme !

[The Johnster]

I rather liked the 123s as well, Brian, the best solution I've yet seen to the styling problem of how to fit a corridor connection into the middle of a driving cab (honours shared with the Clacton 25kv sets).  And a cab ride from Gloucester to Tamworth (where we got off) with a friendly Gloucester driver in 1963 when I was 11 on a Cardiff-Derby working was bound to seal my affection.

 

But my memory of them as a guard at Canton in the 70s was that the drivers didn't like them much and the fitters less.  The cab was claustrophobic (so is a Sprinter's), and draughty in the days of headcode panels, and IIRC the motors, though higher powered, were geared higher than the 'normal' sets, supposedly giving them a 75 as opposed to 70mph top speed, but in fact the effect was that they were slower accelerating, inferior on the banks, and barely capable of achieving 70mph anyway, which meant they were thrashed to keep time, not always successfully.  They were no use as replacements for 120+bubble car formations on the Marches Line.  I do remember being very impressed with one coming back from Hereford on a very rainy night though; it was proper biblical rain all the way and neither the cab nor the brake van leaked a drop!  They rode well enough on the B4 bogies but seemed to vibrate more than the normal sets, which could be pretty good tooth rattlers...

 

It's not OT, mods, it's about dmus which as everybody knows are all the same...

[cctransuk]

Railmatch do :- BR Early Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Original bright malachite shade pre-1961 and BR Later Multiple Unit Green (15ml enamel) Dark green, later standard shade

in enamel.

 

I have ordered both to see how they compare with the Phoenix colours.

 

I'll know the correct colour when I see it; for some reason, the Lima GWR railcar in BR green is at the back of my mind;

https://www.google.gr/search?q=Lima+gwr+railcar&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibybfuqYTWAhXFCMAKHcu-APkQ_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=659#imgrc=huCdi7Tgim8k5M:

 

(Hattons' illustration of the model as supplied).

 

Well, Railmatch Early DMU Green was certainly what I was looking for.

 

After multiple applications and stripping of other manufacturers' interpretations, a couple of brush-applied coats of Railmatch enamel produced a result that, to my eyes and memory, is spot-on for the shade used on  the Gloucester single cars when new.

 

 

 

 

I printed and applied a set of transfers, and the reassembled model now looks like a brand-new 'bubble car'.

 

It brings memories of the Looe Branch as sampled during my childhood holidays, when spotting at Liskeard was preferred to sitting around on Looe beach!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[cravensdmufan]

 

 

Well, Railmatch Early DMU Green was certainly what I was looking for.

 

After multiple applications and stripping of other manufacturers' interpretations, a couple of brush-applied coats of Railmatch enamel produced a result that, to my eyes and memory, is spot-on for the shade used on  the Gloucester single cars when new.

That DMU green looks spot on.

 

Very neat brush painting.

 

Did you thin the Railmatch enamel?

[cctransuk]

That DMU green looks spot on.

 

Very neat brush painting.

 

Did you thin the Railmatch enamel?

 

Thank you.

 

Nope - straight out of the bottle.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[St Enodoc]

122.jpg (Hattons' illustration of the model as supplied).

 

Well, Railmatch Early DMU Green was certainly what I was looking for.

 

After multiple applications and stripping of other manufacturers' interpretations, a couple of brush-applied coats of Railmatch enamel produced a result that, to my eyes and memory, is spot-on for the shade used on  the Gloucester single cars when new.

 

IMG_4415.JPG

 

IMG_4412.JPG

 

IMG_4407.JPG

 

I printed and applied a set of transfers, and the reassembled model now looks like a brand-new 'bubble car'.

 

It brings memories of the Looe Branch as sampled during my childhood holidays, when spotting at Liskeard was preferred to sitting around on Looe beach!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Very nice indeed John. Are the transfers on your list now?

[dibber25]

Sorry but like I've said before, we don't see colours the same as each other. That looks way too dark for a Gloucester, to my eyes. I'd say that's great for a 121 or a repainted Gloucester with yellow panels. (CJL)

[brushman47544]

IMG_4412.JPG

 

IMG_4407.JPG

 

Excursion!!!??? I hope not, unless VERY local indeed :-)

[cctransuk]

Excursion!!!??? I hope not, unless VERY local indeed :-)

 

Since the S&DJR didn't do DMUs except on specials, my GRCW single car will form a railway society tour train - stopping frequently for 'comfort breaks'.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[The Stationmaster]

I finally collected my GRCW SPC (Class 122 for younger readers) from Kernow's stall at the ever excellent Farnham show yesterday and the overall colour looks pretty good to me although possibly a touch too dark (but not a lot) so thanks to CJL for his input to Dapol on that. The lining is something of a disappointment particularly when compared with that on the maroon liveried Hornby Colletts which i also collected yesterday and which have exquisite lining.

 

Some of the detail painting on the underframe looks a bit odd but is easily corrected although I'm puzzled as to why Dapol painted the engine rocker covers green when the originals had unpainted, but nicely finished, cast aluminium rocker covers and the exhaust pipes are very much ex-factory colouring which barely lasted a week in normal service with both underframe and vehicle end pipes quickly losing any sort of paint covering and acquiring a nice shade of 'rust brown'.  I don't remember the radiator air intakes as 'silver' either although they might well have been like that when new but at least the heaters are correctly painted 'silver' although again they also dirtied fairly quickly in service.  But all of that is simply a matter of detail painting and at least everything is in its correct place on the underframe.

[dibber25]

I finally collected my GRCW SPC (Class 122 for younger readers) from Kernow's stall at the ever excellent Farnham show yesterday and the overall colour looks pretty good to me although possibly a touch too dark (but not a lot) so thanks to CJL for his input to Dapol on that. The lining is something of a disappointment particularly when compared with that on the maroon liveried Hornby Colletts which i also collected yesterday and which have exquisite lining.

 

Some of the detail painting on the underframe looks a bit odd but is easily corrected although I'm puzzled as to why Dapol painted the engine rocker covers green when the originals had unpainted, but nicely finished, cast aluminium rocker covers and the exhaust pipes are very much ex-factory colouring which barely lasted a week in normal service with both underframe and vehicle end pipes quickly losing any sort of paint covering and acquiring a nice shade of 'rust brown'.  I don't remember the radiator air intakes as 'silver' either although they might well have been like that when new but at least the heaters are correctly painted 'silver' although again they also dirtied fairly quickly in service.  But all of that is simply a matter of detail painting and at least everything is in its correct place on the underframe.

 

In the next Model Rail (published next Friday, I think) I've done some work on two Dapol 122s, one light green, one darker green, syp. I'd have liked a slightly lighter shade of green but the next one down was way too blue (like a sort of sea green). I only remember the under frame equipment as all-over 'brake dust brown'. These different coloured components are a comparatively modern phenomenon. In the 60s, most equipment was either black or bare metal. Exhaust pipes - like those on a car - turned rusty the first time they got hot. I haven't painted out the coloured under frame parts on mine. I've just had a masterclass in airbrushing with George, so I might have a shot at weathering them. I was shown pictures which suggested the 122 lining was the same, top and bottom. On the 121, which I was more familiar with, it was narrower on the top. (CJL)

[cctransuk]

 I was shown pictures which suggested the 122 lining was the same, top and bottom. On the 121, which I was more familiar with, it was narrower on the top. (CJL)

 

Some were, some weren't.

 

I have loads of photos in which it is abundantly clear that the top and waist lining are the same width.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

PS. After checking through all of my GRCW single car photos, I'd say that there were three variations of the lining - thin upper + wider waist; thin upper + thin waist; wider upper + wider waist. An as-built works photo suggests the latter variant, but it is too low res. to be absolutely certain.

Edited October 15, 2017 by cctransuk

[dibber25]

Some were, some weren't.

 

I have loads of photos in which it is abundantly clear that the top and waist lining are the same width.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

PS. After checking through all of my GRCW single car photos, I'd say that there were three variations of the lining - thin upper + wider waist; thin upper + thin waist; wider upper + wider waist. An as-built works photo suggests the latter variant, but it is too low res. to be absolutely certain.

 

I had a fabulous Swindon official portrait of brand new W55000. I can't find it anywhere. One of the hazards of lending pictures out for publication. They don't always find their way home. What it did show, very clearly, was that the cream lining was outlined in a fine black line, above and below. I'm now wondering if the presence or absence of the black lines in some instances made the cream band wider. In other words, did they all have black lining on both bands and was it applied over, or outside, the cream lining? (CJL)

Edited October 15, 2017 by dibber25

[Miss Prism]

I would agree with John Isherwood's three variations.

 

I understand the original spec for the thin cream line was 1". The original thick cream line was 1.75" edged with 1/16" black.

 

Whether all the thick lines (at waist and/or cantrail level) continued to have the black edging throughout all Swindon/Gloucester/Pressed Steel production is another matter.

[metadyneman]

I have a question regarding the lighting on this unit. I have just purchased a BR Blue grey 122 and with it a brand new 36-577 Bachmann decoder ( the new ESU version with 2 "logic" functions not the previous soundtraxx one). On the information printed on the reverse of the decoder packaging it says it is 21pin MTC compatible. On the 122 instructions it says if your decoder is 21 pin MTC then the interior lights are controllable and can be switched off/on by pressing F3. If it isn't MTC then they will be on permanently. Having fitted the decoder to the unit, the interior lights stay on permanently and F3 has no effect. All other lights work independently as they should. Does anyone have any idea why the interior lights won't switch off seeing as it is a 21Pin MTC decoder?  I have tried other function buttons such as F5 just in case but nothing happens. I am using a Dynamis controller.

 

Any help or suggestions would be great thanks.

[Waverley West]

I've bought a couple of 122s for my layout and very pleased with them I am too. 

 

One of them is now in service and has been weathered with passengers and driver fitted. It is used to supplement a Bachmann 108 and runs pretty smoothly with it too, smoother than my two "identical" Bachman 101s run together in fact.

 

Apart from sound-fitting (Howes) and the usual weathering and painting of the interior (with the floor painted black to hide the shallowness), the only other significant alteration is the reduction in the roof ribs, which improves the look of the unit further I think. They are still visible but not as prominent now. The destination blinds have been changed too.

 

 

 

 

The underframe detail is superb...

 

 

Edited October 27, 2017 by Waverley West

[The Johnster]

I've bought a couple of 122s for my layout and very pleased with them I am too. 

 

One of them is now in service and has been weathered with passengers and driver fitted. It is used to supplement a Bachmann 108 and runs pretty smoothly with it too, smoother than my two "identical" Bachman 101s run together in fact.

 

Apart sound-fitting (Howes) and the usual weathering and painting of the interior (with the floor painted black to hide the shallowness), the only other significant alteration is the reduction in the roof ribs, which improves the look of the unit further I think. They are still visible but not as prominent now. The destination blinds have been changed too.

 

122b.jpg

 

122j.jpg

 

122d.jpg

 

The underframe detail is superb...

 

122f.jpg

 

122g.jpg

 

 

 

Looking good, Waverley!