Hunslet class 05

[Izzy]

Nice work and it shows one of the big advantages EM has over P4. With no alternative wheels available for the wider gauges (and I suspect no direct replacements will become available in the foreseeable future) the simple "pull out" conversion to EM means very little hassle and virtually zero expense.

 

For me the conversion to P4 was a little more complex and involved turning up dies, holders and presses some of which ended up not being used. Difficult part was working out how to remove the original Heljan wheel centre without damage.

Hlt05Medelling-103-editSm.jpg

 

Got there in the end and this was the result. Originals and modified.

Hlt05Medelling-163-©EditSm.jpg

 

Heljan/Howes policy of supplying spares meant I was able to purchase the sprue that included spare sideframes which will be able to be laminated over the originals and still utilize the original wiper pick ups. I've sussed how I'm going to enable a bit of compensation into two of the axles and I might eventually etch up a set of coupling rods.

 

Sometimes, I wish I'd stuck to EM.

 

 

Pity manufacturers can't fit the correct style radiator grills at the time of purchase. Lol

 

P

 

May I ask please, might it have been possible simply to skim the back of the wheels to reduce the flange thickness to that needed to pass through P4 flangeways - 0.4mm ? Or would the overall wheel width still be too much after doing this? Just wondering if there was an easier P4 conversion route.....as the loco looks quite tempting......

 

cheers,

 

Izzy

[PenrithBeacon]

AGW does a wheel which might do even if it isn't a perfect match

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf

 

4839G 3' 3.5" 13.0mm. 10 spoke Industrial Garratt Plain PB 11" 3.66mm

 

Regards

[Horsetan]

May I ask please, might it have been possible simply to skim the back of the wheels to reduce the flange thickness to that needed to pass through P4 flangeways - 0.4mm ? Or would the overall wheel width still be too much after doing this? ....

 

If you do it the Brian Harrap way, then yes you can turn down the flange thickness, but you'd still have an over-wide tyre unless you dare to take material off the front without damaging the front face of the wheel centre....assuming there's enough material. And even then, you'd still have to remount the centre in the new thinner tyre, which surely means taking material off the rear of the centre.

 

......Difficult part was working out how to remove the original Heljan wheel centre without damage....

 

So how do Heljan do it? Is it a press-in from front or rear?

 

It's something I've been worried about when looking at Roco HO engines. Brian kindly let me experiment with his lathe a while ago, and we managed to turn down the pony wheel flanges of a SBB C5/6 to something approximating P87, but the tyre width remains too wide, and I still don't know how Roco wheel centres are pressed into their tyres, i.e. from front or back?

 

With better knowledge of Roco's methods, I could at least have a stab at converting the rest of the C5/6 to P87 without spending too much money..... Same goes for the E3/3 "Tigerli" from Bachmann-Liliput, which also has plastic-centred driving wheels.

 

Likewise, the current generation of Hornby driving wheels - there are some useful and accurate-looking centres such as the BR Standard 6/7/8 wheel which look as though they would go well in a P4 tyre, and which are not available from the usual sources.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Horsetan

[Michael Edge]

AGW does a wheel which might do even if it isn't a perfect match

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf

 

4839G 3' 3.5" 13.0mm. 10 spoke Industrial Garratt Plain PB 11" 3.66mm

 

Regards

Too small, this is the wheel size of the first batches of 05s, the high cab version has 3'9" wheels with a very distinctive spoke shape - Heljan have done this quite well. Our kit suggests using Gibson 4844P and we put in an overlay etch to represent the flat faced spokes.

[Porcy Mane]

May I ask please, might it have been possible simply to skim the back of the wheels to reduce the flange thickness to that needed to pass through P4 flangeways - 0.4mm ? Or would the overall wheel width still be too much after doing this? Just wondering if there was an easier P4 conversion route.....as the loco looks quite tempting......

 

I was hoping that skimming the back of the wheel would do the trick but after taking a few measurements it looked as though if I wanted to keep the correct 1 in 20 inclination on the tyre, thinning of the wheel would have left an unacceptably thin flange. I didn't want to risk taking any material off the front face as Heljan have really captured the look of the prototype wheel and due to the very slight taper of the spokes felt this would have changed the appearance too much for my personal liking. Also taking material of the front would have reduced the crankipin boss depth. I wanted to keep this at maximum as possible from the front, as Heljan utilise a straight knurled  friction fit crankpin.

 

Whilst doing all the measurements  (I use 17.78 mm as my back to back.) it showed up the main reason I wouldn't be able to use wide wheels. If you run wide wheels, in moving the fly cranks out to keep the coupling rods parallel, the Flycrank crank-pins would foul the cab steps. You might get away with the Heljan wheel if you use a different crank-pin design?

 

I'm sure there will be a simpler way to convert it than my method.

 

AGW does a wheel which might do even if it isn't a perfect match

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Catalogue.pdf

 

4839G 3' 3.5" 13.0mm. 10 spoke Industrial Garratt Plain PB 11" 3.66mm

 

Regards

 

I don't think Colin does that wheel in a 2 mm axle? I suppose you could use 1/8" to 2mm top hat bushes to sleeve the wheel down or turn the centre of an 1/8" axle down to 2mm. The keeper plate design of Heljans chassis would allow you to fit a stepped type of axle.

Would it be worth doing that though, to fit a wheel that is 2mm too small in diameter, has two less spokes than the prototype, a crankpin between the spokes instead of on and incorrect crank throw?

I spoke at some depth with Colin S at Gibson regarding possible replacement wheels and bought a fair selection off him for trial. The 4844P Caley Pug 12 spoke wheel came out as the nearest match. If you just wanted to use just a tyre any of his 14.6 mm tender wheels would do. Although only 0.4 mm smaller in diameter than the scale 15 mm of the prototype the difference is quite noticeable.

Colin said he might consider moulding the Pug wheel with a 2mm bore if it could be proven that there was a demand but this was over 6 months ago.

HTH

 

 

 

If you do it the Brian Harrap way, then yes you can turn down the flange thickness, but you'd still have an over-wide tyre unless you dare to take material off the front without damaging the front face of the wheel centre....assuming there's enough material. And even then, you'd still have to remount the centre in the new thinner tyre, which surely means taking material off the rear of the centre.

Horse,

see my comment above re retaining Heljan tyre thickness and fly crank crank-pin fouling. It might be possible to do it using P4 back to back measurement but as one of my aims was to try and improve visual appearance as well, I decided on the method I chose.

I managed to retain the full width/depth of the axle boss by making up and using a Pendleton type tyre holder. This enabled the plastic wheel centre to be thinned to the same width as the tyre but retain the original depth boss on the centre. You can see this in my pic in this post.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65792-hunslet-class-05/page-11&do=findComment&comment=2175835

 

 

So how do Heljan do it? Is it a press-in from front or rear?

Neither.

Same way as Ultrascale. The centre must be injection moulded in situ with the inside of the metal tyre having a turned locating/locking recess. Unlike Ultrascale, there is an added complication in that it is not a simple recessed groove but it is cogged. I assume as a further precaution against slip.

I suspected this, so didn't even attempt to press out the centre.

 

On the first pair of wheels I tried two different methods to release the plastic centres from their respective tyres.

Firstly, as part of experimenting with turning down the original Heljan flange & thinning the wheel from the rear I continued to thin the wheel to expose the maximum diameter of the plastic centre. You can see the condition of the wheel at this point in the top photograph in this post:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65792-hunslet-class-05/page-11&do=findComment&comment=2177708

You need to be looking at the wheel at the bottom right of the photo. This enabled the wheel centre to be pressed out from the front.

 

Secondly, and what turned out to be my preferred method was to turn up a clamp type wheel holder. A wheel was mounted in the holder and then checked that it was concentric to the cutting tool/lathe centre line using a dial gauge. The wheel diameter was then reduced by taking consecutive small skims off the tyre until serrations from the cogging started to appear around the circumference. These serrations can be used as a second verification of concentricity by checking their width around the circumference. If there is width variation of the serrations on opposite sides at any point  across the diameter, concentricy will need checking and resetting. The pic below will hopefully make my explanation clearer.

 

I carried on reducing the tyre diameter until the full width of the central wheel recess was exposed as below.

 

Once this condition had been reached it was a simple matter of dismantling the clamp/holder to release the wheel and "ping off" the now, two separate halves of what remained of the tyre with my finger nail.

This is what I was left with.

 

I've been offered some Hornby K1 wheels to experiment with. If I get a change of tinkering with them I'll report back.

 

hth,

P

Edited January 28, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Porcy Mane]

Too small, this is the wheel size of the first batches of 05s, the high cab version has 3'9" wheels with a very distinctive spoke shape - Heljan have done this quite well. Our kit suggests using Gibson 4844P and we put in an overlay etch to represent the flat faced spokes.

 

Crossed post with Mr Edge.

 

P

[Izzy]

Whilst doing all the measurements  (I use 17.78 mm as my back to back.) it showed up the main reason I wouldn't be able to use wide wheels. If you run wide wheels, in moving the fly cranks out to keep the coupling rods parallel, the Flycrank crank-pins would foul the cab steps. You might get away with the Heljan wheel if you use a different crank-pin design?

 

hth,

P

 

Many thanks, that is what I suspected might be the main issue. I thought I'd ask as some 4mm wheels are now much 'thinner' than they used to be, not having an overwide tread - just more flange on the back than P4 ones -  and if you just skim off the back - I don't touch the actual tyre profile - then often you can get close to 2mm overall width at the right flange width.

 

Izzy

[Horsetan]

.....I've been offered some Hornby K1 wheels to experiment with. If I get a change of tinkering with them I'll report back.

 

If they're anything like the Hornby "Merchant Navy" wheels, they might be a press-in from the front.

[PenrithBeacon]

Too small, this is the wheel size of the first batches of 05s, the high cab version has 3'9" wheels with a very distinctive spoke shape - Heljan have done this quite well. Our kit suggests using Gibson 4844P and we put in an overlay etch to represent the flat faced spokes.

Thank you for that. I looked the loco up in my 1959 Combined Volume, clearly I got the wrong one. Will you be making the wheel overlay available?

 

I bought this RTR loco not imagining the problems with wheels, a way out would be appreciated. Also I must make a note not to splash out in the future until the matter has been researched properly!

 

I must say that I'm most impressed with 'Porcy Mane''s lathe work, but those sort of skills are not available to most RMwebbers, we need a simpler, less technical, approach.

 

Regards

[Michael Edge]

Thank you for that. I looked the loco up in my 1959 Combined Volume, clearly I got the wrong one. Will you be making the wheel overlay available?

 

We could do but at the moment they are only on the kit etch.

[ColinK]

I'm hoping someone can give me a few pointers. My 05 has suddenly started running badly, but only in one direction. Running backwards (cab first) it runs fine. But going forward (bonnet first) something is wrong, it is erratic with a ticking sound like something is catching, particularly every half revoloution. It sound like something is catching in the gears, but if it was I would expect the problem to be in both directions.

[Swindon 123]

I'm hoping someone can give me a few pointers. My 05 has suddenly started running badly, but only in one direction. Running backwards (cab first) it runs fine. But going forward (bonnet first) something is wrong, it is erratic with a ticking sound like something is catching, particularly every half revoloution. It sound like something is catching in the gears, but if it was I would expect the problem to be in both directions.

Sounds like you might have a split gear in the gear train. I haven't dismantled the chassis on one yet so don't know what the gear train looks like or how easy it is to repair, if that is what's wrong. Sorry can't be much more help.

 

Paul J.

[ColinK]

Thanks Paul, I've just removed the chassis baseplate and lifted the wheels out. One of the gears does indeed appear to have split. I've no idea how to fix the problem though.

[Izzy]

Thanks Paul, I've just removed the chassis baseplate and lifted the wheels out. One of the gears does indeed appear to have split. I've no idea how to fix the problem though.

 

That's sad considering the models quite a new one. I had no idea that split gears were a problem in 4mm until I read of the issue with a W&M railbus. It's long been a relatively common experience with Farish N gauge but spare gears are reasonably easy to obtain as a consequence. Perhaps Howes can help. One would think that given the age of the model and it's cost a replacement could be expected if the model has failed and spare gears are not available.

 

Izzy

[ColinK]

Thanks Izzy, it will be on its way to Howes next week.

[Horsetan]

Spare gears may be available, albeit direct from Chinese sources on eBay.

[Swindon 123]

For anyone with the model of "Cider Queen" who is thinking of weathering the model, I have recently put some shots of it working at the Bulmer Railway Center at the Easter 1985 open day on my Flickr site here.

 

https://flic.kr/s/aHskxLc6TL

 

Paul J.

[Enterprisingwestern]

we need a simpler, less technical, approach.Regards

Its called EM gauge.

 

Mike.

Hat, coat, passport, gone.

[Porcy Mane]

I must say that I'm most impressed with 'Porcy Mane''s lathe work,

 

Thanks for the kind remark but it has to be said, if I can do it, anybody can. (See below).

 

but those sort of skills are not available to most RMwebbers, we need a simpler, less technical, approach.

 

Skill/expertise is something I don't posses. After spending a bit of time reading on line "stuff" about Unimats and lathe-work, quite a bit of which was found on RMweb and reading through articles by Chris Pendleton in MRJ's 219 &221, I bought the lathe second hand late last year. I paid no more than it costs to buy a new 4mm RTR loco  and invested about another £70.00* on cutting tools & steel and brass bar. I then spent a few evenings getting to know the foibles of the lathe by turning the brass and steel bar into swarf. There was no one more surprised than I when the first set of wheels I altered turned out to be concentric and true.

Some Swarf, yesterday.

 

* I was fortunate in that I already own Dial Gauges, Micrometers and Verniers used in another hobby but these have to be described as luxury items and not something I would use daily. Despite owning some quite expensive measuring equipment I now find myself using almost exclusively a digital vernier which cost me £9.99 (inc P&P) off Ebay.

 

Its called EM gauge.

 

Mike.

Hat, coat, passport, gone.

 

Oi. I know a few people out there and might arrange for them to come a visiting, once you get settled in that hacienda.

 

BUT I agree with your sentiment. There is something to be said, for buying one of the current high end RTR offerings and spending just a couple of hours pulling out the wheels and slipping a couple of plasticard horseshoe washers over the axle to take up the slop. I suppose you'll have to be doing quite a bit of that in the near future or did all the stock come as part of the deal?

It would seem "Mr O Hardy" might be needing to fit some stronger springs to the Works Transport for one journey only.

 

P

Ps. *Did you Know* There was a lady at the York show expressed great sadness on the news that you are off to shores afresh. The smile was restored to her face when she realised you would look quite at home in "that" television series. That remark was lost on me, not being a telly owner.

[ColinK]

Thanks Paul, I've just removed the chassis baseplate and lifted the wheels out. One of the gears does indeed appear to have split. I've no idea how to fix the problem though.

My 05 has been repaired by Howes, reasonable price, happy with the result.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Oi. I know a few people out there and might arrange for them to come a visiting, once you get settled in that hacienda.

 

BUT I agree with your sentiment. There is something to be said, for buying one of the current high end RTR offerings and spending just a couple of hours pulling out the wheels and slipping a couple of plasticard horseshoe washers over the axle to take up the slop. I suppose you'll have to be doing quite a bit of that in the near future or did all the stock come as part of the deal?

It would seem "Mr O Hardy" might be needing to fit some stronger springs to the Works Transport for one journey only.

 

P

Ps. *Did you Know* There was a lady at the York show expressed great sadness on the news that you are off to shores afresh. The smile was restored to her face when she realised you would look quite at home in "that" television series. That remark was lost on me, not being a telly owner.

Ooh, goody, visitors, I like visitors and would love you all to come when we are settled.

 

No stock, as Mr H is doing a Doctor Who with most of it and re imagining it on the superb Hornsey Broadway, just got to work out a way of connecting it to Wibdenshaw in a few years time.

 

Re the TV programme, my partners son was on the documentary type programme, so tis but a small step for yours truly.

 

You could come over and open a pease pudding shop, a business opportunity if ever there was one.

 

Mike.

[Porcy Mane]

Re the TV programme, my partners son was on the documentary type programme, so tis but a small step for yours truly.

 

Don't think is was documentary/reality type of show. From the explanation it sounded like Johnny Vegas and Tim Healey were in it.

 

You could come over and open a pease pudding shop, a business opportunity if ever there was one.

Was tried by my local baker and failed miserably. (Now ceased trading both at home and abroad).

 

 

No stock, as Mr H is doing a Doctor Who with most of it and re imagining it on the superb Hornsey Broadway, just got to work out a way of connecting it to Wibdenshaw in a few years time

 

Crikey! that'll be some feat. Engand to Spain in EM. Are Eurotunnel aware of your ambitions?

 

P

Edited April 8, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Horsetan]

.... England to Spain in EM. Are Eurotunnel aware of your ambitions?

How will they deal with 4mm scale migrants going the other way?

[Enterprisingwestern]

How will they deal with 4mm scale migrants going the other way?

Easy, wait for them to appear from the tunnel and stamp on them, Python style.

 

Mike.

[Horsetan]

And here I was thinking that Keir Hardy was an important figure in the history of the Labour Party.

 

...turning the brass and steel bar into swarf. ....

I wonder if there's any way of collecting all that swarf, melting it down, and recasting it into useful weights......