First the Fairbourne, now the Talyllyn...

[John_Hughes]

The TR's apparently the latest member of the railway preservation movement to feel the chill financial winds whistling round its ankles:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-20897036

 

[edcayton]

I think this was inevitable when the WHR opened. The attractions at Portmadoc are now somewhat overwhelming, plus the system can be accessed from several locations whereas for the TR it is really Towyn or nothing. I have to say I've not been to North Wales for several years, and it is the WHR which is tempting me.

Can't help but feel sorry for the pioneering TR in difficult times.

 

Ed

[coachmann]

Several of the Welsh narrow gauge lines are easy to visit from here. Towyn's (Cambs)  scenery is particularly spectacular in high summer but the downside of the Tallylyn Railway is its old fashioned coaches...... Mighty fine for narrow gauge enthusiasts and historians but for ordinarry Joe's and their family where are the amenities? Other lines realised long ago that they have to offer tourists simple things like on-board toilets.

[Ohmisterporter]

I agree with Larry the old coaches just aren't comfortable enough for non-enthusiasts, but it is a Catch 22 situation. They need better coaches to attract more repeat visitors but until they get the income from more passengers they cannot build more coaches. I have just read Tom Rolt's "Railway adventure" and those old coaches were on the point of being unacceptable even in 1951. Sixty years later they can't compare to Ffestiniog coaches. Even so we will be visiting the TR again this year, and maybe calling in at the Coris.

[The Stationmaster]

I think Larry is spot on but there's a bit more to it than that I think.  The weather has been rubbish for much of 2012 and this must have depressed the tourist trade which is the life-blood of all the Welsh railways but added to that if it is a 'bad' day and you're avoiding outdoor holiday activities you would probably chose the 'indoor' one which offers the greatest comfort and biggest tea room.

 

And the other thing is cost.  At present day ticket prices people are less likely to do what was done a few years back and travel on as many as possible or as many as they want - they will go for what they see as offering the best for their money and that will tend to favour longer journeys and, in many cases, the more accessible lines.  But I've no doubt that the TR will survive, as it always seems to have managed to.

[big jim]

the other thing with towyn is its now getting that "abersoch" feel about it, well it did when i visited last easter, lots of middle to upper class townies in their 4x4s and volvo estates etc who would rather sit on the verhanda of thier holiday home supping waitrose cava than go and explore the local attractions and contribute to the local economy.

 

the location doesn't help either, similarly with fairbourne, to get to either its a trek down winding rural roads which quite simply a lot of people dont want to do, to get to the WHR (and indeed portmadoc) you can do it via the A55 which is dual carriageway practically all the way to bangor with a short stretch of A roads to either carnarfon or portmadoc.

 

speaking as a parent of 2 young kids who visits the area on occasion (my mum lives in llwyngwril and my brother has the pub in fairbourne) the tallyllyn has never appealed to me as a day out, similarly the vale of rheidol, don't know why, maybe its just too long a trip with a 3 year old with nothing to attract him, the fairbourne however is ideal, not too long a trip, running alongside the road so we can "race cars" and best of all it runs by the seaside.

[edward66]

Unfortunately Tywyn doesn't have a big lot to recommend it as a resort, not even a decent hotel and little in the way of amenities plus it is quite a distance from the core North Wales attractions. Coach traffic has more or less desertd the area too. 

 

However, the railway is very attractive and has a great heritage plus some pleasant scenic walks from several stations. Most passengers give glowing reports of the way staff go out of their way to be friendly, many of them visit again and again. For the youngsters it also has the claim of originality for its Thomas connections with some of the actual engines featured in the Rev Awdry's books. The big problem is to get people away from Porthmadog for a day!

 

Hopefully 2013 will feature a summer, notably absent from the last couple of years, and won't have the Olympic Games, Golden Jubilee etc. to contend with. Fingers crossed!

 

Edward

[APOLLO]

Well my kids enjoyed their visit a few years ago.

 

 

I think there are hard times ahead for many concerns, not just our preserved railways either.

 

Brit15

 

 

[coachmann]

I took my son to the Talyllin when he was in nappies. Just me and him and a bag full of the old washable nappies. This was in the summer 1963 when we could catch a train from Abergele to Llandudno Junction, a train to Bangor, change for Carnarvon and Afon Wen, change at Afon Wen for the Campbrian on down to Towyn. Took us hours to get there and all by steam, then we caught the Talyllin train to wherever and paid at the brakevan. Coming back from Towyn, we sat in a Hawksworth corridor coach with Holaplast cream coloured interior walls...a pretty dismal experience compared with polished wood empire veneers in the LMS stock. A young woman had kindly changed my sons umpteenth nappy before we reached Portmadoc! When Mary and I 'did' the Tallylin three years ago, the stock carried neat liveries but still basic. We both love the Cambrian and its scenery but whatever transport one uses, it ain't quick and easy.

[Poggy1165]

It's a heck of a place to get to, petrol is dear and so are rail fares. And if you look at it purely as a tourist attraction, the FR/WHR complex beats it by miles. Very sad though, and don't get me wrong, I will try to get down there in 2013 and give them some patronage.

[jonhall]

I've just looked up a post on the National Preservation forum

 

'the Talyllyn in 1973 186,000 passenger journeys were made. now we have on a very good year 56,000 passengers (that includes Members who travel for free),'

 

Thats a big change for the worse.

 

Will the recreation reopening of the WHR result in the loss of the Talyllyn?

 

Jon

[James]

I have just read Tom Rolt's "Railway adventure" and those old coaches were on the point of being unacceptable even in 1951.

 

That's one of my favourite books and it makes you really want to see the TR as it was.

 

So much so that this book, along with others and Boyd's in particular, actually work against the Tal-y-llyn - it's now so far removed from the descriptions of what was essentially saved (even though it could never have continued as it was) that for enthusiasts it may lack something and from comments above with regards 'normal' people it may perhaps find itself in a rather awkward situation.

 

Lines like the WHR have an awful lot to offer these odd-non-enthusiast-types. And the section around Pont Croesor probably has the most expertly laid track of any narrow gauge railway in the UK!

[Neal Ball]

It's a shame the TR is suffering like this. Unfortunately, its a long way from Hove, to quickly pop over and support them for the weekend.

[talyllyn1]

Several of the Welsh narrow gauge lines are easy to visit from here. Towyn's (Cambs)  scenery is particularly spectacular in high summer but the downside of the Tallylyn Railway is its old fashioned coaches...... Mighty fine for narrow gauge enthusiasts and historians but for ordinarry Joe's and their family where are the amenities? Other lines realised long ago that they have to offer tourists simple things like on-board toilets.

 

Larry,

How long has it been since you travelled in a TR coach? The standard bogie coaches are now getting on a bit (one was rebodied at Boston Lodge last year), but they have always provided a reasonable degree of comfort, and plenty of leg room. The end framing was designed to have the option of gangways fitted in future, but this isn't feasible for a number of reasons.  Introducing corridors would have reduced the carrying capacity and it wouldn't  be possible to make this up with longer trains as the termini are too cramped to extend the run-round loops. Without corridors, on-board "amenities" like toilets are a non-starter. This is why the refreshment stop was introduced at Abergynolwyn, with the station building expanded to suit. Visitors seem to appreciate this as it provides an opportunity to "interact" with the train crew. Incidentally, the only other ng line I can think of that offers on-board toilets is the F&WHR, and even then is just one at the rear of the train - most passengers are unaware of it!

The railway now carries almost half the number of passengers that it did in the late 60's and most of the 70's. This is entirely due to the drop in  the number of holidays being taken in the area, and it's been happening for a long time. There have been many initiatives to try and reverse the drop in traffic - Reduced chidrens fares, "Duncan days", Victorian trains, Drive-an-engine, vintage car rallies, weddings, etc. There is little more that can be done for enthusiasts - not much choice of visiting locos for 2ft 3ins gauge.The area bounded by Machynlleth and Barmouth doesn't lend itself to day trips or short breaks as Porthmadog/Caernarfon does - there is no equivalent of the A55.

Unless there is a change in the tourist trends for the area the problem will persist. The general ambience of Tywyn doesn't help, but it has always been thus. If the railway didn't exist, I certainly wouldn't want to go there. The problem is, not everybody is a railway enthusiast and the TR (like most tourist lines) relies on the general public for revenue. The regular coach traffic was lost when the coach companies stopped subjecting their customers to the declining standards at the only suitable hotel in Tywyn - the Corbett Arms.

The TR will have to "cut its cloth", which will mean a reduced timetable and loco and carriage overhauls deferred. The railway needs support now more than ever before. Please tell your non-railway minded friends and relatives what they are missing!

Cheers

Dave

[talyllyn1]

I agree with Larry the old coaches just aren't comfortable enough for non-enthusiasts, but it is a Catch 22 situation. They need better coaches to attract more repeat visitors but until they get the income from more passengers they cannot build more coaches. I have just read Tom Rolt's "Railway adventure" and those old coaches were on the point of being unacceptable even in 1951. Sixty years later they can't compare to Ffestiniog coaches. Even so we will be visiting the TR again this year, and maybe calling in at the Coris.

The TR carries out regular passenger surveys. These are overwhelmingly favourable, and many visitors are travelling again because they enjoyed it so much last time. The only problem is, there aren't enough of them (see my previous post)! The comfort of the carriages is seldom, if ever, questioned. The addition of new coaches, even if they could be afforded, would make no difference.  Only enthusiasts seem to make to the comparison between the TR and the FR. Thankfully, the general public judge the railway for what it is, a unique and charming "throwback" to the Victorian era, with some lovely scenery to enjoy.

[big jim]

do you have to pay to park in towyn?

 

i know that the car parks in fairbourne are pay and display which i think is a joke, places fairbourne are dieing on their feet without having people put off by parking fee's no matter how minimal, as fairbourne is somewhere that you tend to call into in passing (to towyn normally) i recon when people see the charges they just turn around and carry on.

 

 

[Kenton]

I did the WHR and FR during my Snowdon visit last summer. The weather was terrible for both though I found the WHR in particular very enjoyable, along with my American colleagues. The amount of effort put in by staff to make it enjoyable for everyone and even the sandwich/tea/coffee cart through the carriages was that nice bit of extra parting with cash.

 

I am afraid I have found nearly all my visits to Wales as unwelcoming of tourists. The local folk seem to go out of their way to just ignore or even shun tourists and do little to part them from their cash in return for goods or services. It is a bit of a generalisation, I know, but that is the way I have found it. Scotland on the other hand has developed it to an art form and will sell you anything .

 

These are definitely difficult times, but I think these attractions really need to concentrate more on the foreign tourist (including wealthy English) rather than the day trippers from Blackpool and Liverpool who probably don't have spare cash to spend.

 

The problem with the TR is that it remains an enthusiasts railway. With no welcome or attraction nearby it remains a day trip, and the roads make that difficult.

[Penrhos1920]

We went to the TR in 2012, but was unable to travel any further than the next station as we had arrived too late.  We only arrived in the middle of the afternoon.  Consequently we didn't get to sample the on train facilities but consoled ourselves with a cuppa and cake in the cafe.

 

When we are on holiday we often try to do two things in a day.  But we occasionally find that places like preserved railways think that everything has to be put to bed by 5pm (including the engines and shutting the engine shed doors).  A typical day for us would be to plan a visit to somewhere and then after lunch take pot-luck with finding something else to do that is nearby; often having a list of what else is on offer.  The then either return to our cottage or find a pub for dinner.  Modern tourists are much more flexible than those of 20 years ago but many railways still run to the timetables that they started with.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

We went to the TR in 2012, but was unable to travel any further than the next station as we had arrived too late.  We only arrived in the middle of the afternoon.  Consequently we didn't get to sample the on train facilities but consoled ourselves with a cuppa and cake in the cafe.

 

When we are on holiday we often try to do two things in a day.  But we occasionally find that places like preserved railways think that everything has to be put to bed by 5pm (including the engines and shutting the engine shed doors).  A typical day for us would be to plan a visit to somewhere and then after lunch take pot-luck with finding something else to do that is nearby; often having a list of what else is on offer.  The then either return to our cottage or find a pub for dinner.  Modern tourists are much more flexible than those of 20 years ago but many railways still run to the timetables that they started with.

They do publish a timetable in their free leaflet though to be fair!

 

I don't know about parking at Tywyn but Abergynolwyn has free parking. My Granddad was with us for the trip and he had no complaints about the comfort of the carriages, and we had space for our Labrador to spread out across our feet. The new museum is rather good too!

 

Whilst it doesn't have the length or the state of the art carriages available to the WHR, it does have a certain charm that is almost unique.

 

 

 

Will the recreation reopening of the WHR result in the loss of the Talyllyn?

 

Very quick to doom monger don't you think? A bad year doesn't spell the end for the Talyllyn and as mentioned by others all through the thread there are several potential distractions away from the railway this year. I'm not going to claim that they will immediately bounce back to full strength but one bad year isn't curtains.

 

Whilst the WHR and Ffestiniog are fantastic railways with scenery, comfort and varied interesting rolling stock, they are both rather expensive, with return tickets costing more than you would expect to pay for an all day ticket on a gala at any other railway. The full journey on either of the lines, particularly the WHR, is a bit long for a family with young kids as well. They may be well publicised but the Talyllyn will always have that Thomas the Tank link. I don't really see how the Talyllyn could lose its appeal to tourists so quickly and easily. 

[talyllyn1]

 

 

The problem with the TR is that it remains an enthusiasts railway.

 

On another forum, someone in a position to know has stated that enthusiasts account for about 10% of the FR's passenger figures. Given all the "goodies" available at Porthmadog, the TR percentage is likely to be less, although the enthusiast element has held up well against "ordinary" visitors.

The biggest groups of passengers are either retired, and have often visited at least once before, or families with young children (the "Thomas" effect) The main problem is that most holidaymakers to the area stay in caravans and tend to return every year and sometiimes more than once a year. They will have "done" the TR once or twice, but as non-enthusiasts they don't feel the need to do it every time. The lack of decent hotels and the trend away from caravan holidays and B&B's means that the numbers taking their holidays in the area has fallen year-on-year for the past couple of decades. Porthmadog, on the other hand, has had a considerable improvement in fortunes since the building the A55 trunk road, bringing it in easy reach for day trippers from Llandudno and making weekend breaks feasible from Liverpool, Manchester and surroundings. A sure sign of this is the opening of a Travelodge there in the last couple of years - something the Tywyn area would benefit from enormously, but it's most unlikely to happen.

[big jim]

another thing is the "all in one place" static caravan holiday, last year my wife did 7 short breaks with the kids while i was working, ranging from 2 on scotlands east and west coasts, mablethorpe, tenby, pwllhelli and borth, what she does is once she had driven to the site the car doesn't move and she makes use of the on site entertainment and facilities or places within walking distance which is what a lot of people do meaning they never get to discover hidden gems like the talyllyn, fairbourne, corris etc, i on the other hand like to explore the area, in fact were off to somewhere near swanage during half term, hmmmm wonder what we can find to do there!!

 

the end of the day the whole area, travellers psyche and indeed travellers amenities have changed beyond recognition since the likes of towyn, barmouth, bala, betws-y-coed etc were must visit destinations, the advent of the A55 expressway and indeed the improvements to the A5 from nescliffe north etc has negated the need to travel cross country via the A5 from chirk to bangor and discover these places, you only have to look at llangollen for example despite being a tourist destination there isn't even a petrol station there anymore, similarly corwen iirc, llangollen is virtually a 15 minute diversion off the "new" tourist route into wales, pull off the duel carriage way, couple of hours max in town (and thats pushing it), photograph some sheep, back in the car, 15 mins back to the duel carriageway and carry on.

 

interesting the comments about holiday homes, its also worth noting that last year a lot of people with holiday homes just didn't visit at all, my other brother cleans windows and cuts grass for holiday home owners in the area and he was saying that last spring/summer his workload has had a downturn as people just arent making use of their hoilday homes, it amazed me the number of houses for sale in llwyngwril last time i visited my mum, 90% of which were 2nd homes apparently

[wombatofludham]

Comment was made about the cost of tickets on the Tal-y-Lyn earlier - well if that is an issue, then the WHR will really put people off.  It's over £30 return from Porth to Caernarfon, and although as a Gwynedd resident (actually in Fairbourne) I was able to get a resident's discount card, it's a lot if you have a family.  The journey is over two and a half hours which is a long time for modern kids who unless they like trains will get bored.  I've done the trip several times now with friends and family when they visit, and although they enjoy it I've seen lots of really quite fractious kids on the journey.  By comparison, the Tal-y-Llyn is shorter with the added benefit of being able to take a break at Abergynolwyn.  In that respect it's more child friendly, just like the Fairbourne railway.

 

What the WHR and FR are very good at is attracting coach parties.  The WHR seems to be being promoted as a one way trip to Beddgelert (never quite understood the appeal of Bedd, it's based on a lie about Gelert's dog and is a village with a nice ice cream shop in my view...) with the coach dropping people off in Porthmadog, with time to do the Edinburgh Woollen Mill shop before catching the train, and being picked up by the coach in Bedd for the rest of the Snowdonia tour.  The Tal-y-Llyn hasn't got that coach appeal, as others have said, Tywyn is looking down at heel and the sea front isn't much to write home about, the shops are pretty awful although I do like to go there occasionally, and there isn't really an alternative destination for a coach party to visit if they got off at Abergynolwyn, you'd pass Lake Tal-y-Llyn but there isn't a "Beddgelert" or Llanberis to go to at the other end.  Dolgellau has tried a couple of destination attractions in the failed Gold Mine Museum and the failing Ty Siamas Folk Music Heritage Centre, which had they been successful, could have lent itself to a coach party being dropped off in Tywyn, train to Abergynolwyn, then coach via Tal-y-Lyn to Dolgellau for overnight accomodation.  But I don't see that happening.

The one thing in the TR's favour is it is relatively easy to get to from the Midlands - except it appears that Barmouth, Tywyn and Fairbourne are no longer mainly visited by Midlanders, apparently the majority of visitors are from the Liverpool and Manchester direction.  Places which have to pass the FR and WHR before they get to Barmouth or Tywyn.  Unless things pick up in terms of visitors from the Midlands, the TR might continue to find things difficult.  That said, I'm pretty sure this year's performance has been weather related as a lot of local attractions have suffered - and the flooding in Aberystwyth which made everyone think the whole of Wales was cut off didn't help, people cancelled a lot of visits worried they might be trapped even though the flooding was relatively localised.

[Gwiwer]

Others have recounted their experiences and adequately described the relative awkwardness of making a special trip to Towyn just for a ride.  The dedicated volunteers do it week in week out and at no small cost to themselves in terms of petrol.  

 

Like it or not the UK is in something of an extended recession with discretionary spending falling which makes the option of a casual trip out of the question for many.  It also precludes many families taking holidays which is having an impact on tourism across the nation.  The Talyllyn isn't the only railway to have a significant drop in passenger numbers and income.  It affects the "big boys" as well with some turning in disappointing provisional results for 2012.

 

The Cambrian rail service to Towyn is probably the best it's ever been.  At that level rail access cannot be described as inconvenient in the way it was back in the 1970s and 80s when just a handful of trains ran timed to suit school traffic and crew rosters more than anything else.  It is however a long way from much else and with little or no access to the "top end" making it very much "Towyn or nothing" as others have said and the option of a one-way trip not readily available.  Compare with the Ffestiniog which can be used for one-way or short round trips using Minffordd and Blaenau at least and with the option of riding up into the mountains and leaving by rail towards Llandudno.

 

Towyn relies heavily on tourism and suffers in bad years.  The railway will feel that keenly.   The irony is that harder times means there is less money to develop other visitor attractions and to improve the quality of the overall experience.  Yet this may be what is needed.  Relying heavily on the discretionary tourism market they are open to adverse comments being posted all over the internet these days.  It only takes one bad experience for a negative comment to be posted then read by others who might have come but may be deterred.  The Talyllyn, as with all other heritage railways, cannot afford that.  

 

I wish them well as they face the challenges ahead.

[PaulRhB]

I've been a fan of the TR for over 30 yrs after being introduced by the Skarloey stories, (I think they are one of the few who can avoid some of the licensing fees too as they are actually in the books), and I do think it's a bit stuck in time facilities wise for what many modern visitors expect. Once on the railway it's very good but the car park is in a field on the other side and you walk past nothing spectacular or quaint to the station, that's where a nice arcade of shops and a pub would instantly improve the feeling.

I think most of the points are covered above in different posts, Tywyn has little else around to attract visitors as other or alternative activities and the town itself isn't going to occupy someone for long. Coaches pass it by using the main A487 road inland now as it's been upgraded and there aren't any famous sites to draw them onto the coast road. Harlech probably survives purely because the draw of the castle has kept numbers high which brings business to hotels and pubs.

I think the coaches are ok as they are part of the ambience and most visitors actually seem to think they enhance the feeling of the Victorian era.

Maybe the Talyllyn needs to think radically about making it's major terminus at the Talyllyn lake end to draw people the shorter distance off the main road. It would also benefit from encouraging the local council to push a combined approach to other attractions maybe something like the folk museum moved to Abergynolwyn? If you could offer the railway, folk museum, walks to Bryn Eglwys and something at Talyllyn lake to tour companies and show their reps it might work. Could lottery funding be used to help finance a funicular on the old coal incline at Abergynolwyn to get the less able up to the station? Turn the heritage to their advantage and include the rejuvenation of the whole valley as the resulting aim.

Beddgelert built it's reputation on Gelerts grave alone and that's not even a major destination now the village shops etc have become so successful.

[AMJ]

North Wales is bliss for those of us that like railways.  The TR is one where I plan on going for the whole day.  I get a day ticket, pay to park at Towyn Wharfe and often sample the tea room at Abergynolwyn (now has bottled Purple Moose ale).  I tend to spen most of the day on the top half of the line changing between trains dependent on the time table.

 

Any sensible person (like us) would go to as many railways in the area a possible though I must admit Fairboure has often been bypassed apart from going to ride on Sherpa the other year.

 

A week in Wales for me is like a military campaign as I have got time tables and driving times from where I'm staying so I know what time to get up, whats running when etc.  Last year I even planned a trip to FR based upon what was running when.

 

Old adage applies "Use it or loose it."