Great Gathering A4 Collection

[Ozexpatriate]

Hornby no longer use Kader or Sander Kan for any ot their railway products.

Where did you learn that?

 

It was my understanding that Sanda Kan which like Bachmann Branch-Line is a Kader Holdings subsidiary, remains the dominant supplier to Hornby for model railway products.

 

Hornby have worked to find a second manufacturing source but it is my understanding that this company still supplies less than half of Hornby's model railway items. I believe they did the 28xx and the GWR eight-coupled tanks but apparently failed on the B17 which I thought went back to Sanda Kan.

[40F]

Where did you learn that?

 

It was my understanding that Sanda Kan which like Bachmann Branch-Line is a Kader Holdings subsidiary, remains the dominant supplier to Hornby for model railway products.

 

Hornby have worked to find a second manufacturing source but it is my understanding that this company still supplies less than half of Hornby's model railway items. I believe they did the 28xx and the GWR eight-coupled tanks but apparently failed on the B17 which I thought went back to Sanda Kan.

 

 

Where did you hear it from. My source is from the Horses Mouth

[Ozexpatriate]

Where did you hear it from. My source is from the Horses Mouth

It's my understanding that all of Hornby's supply chain issues date back to the Sanda Kan meltdown of July - November 2008 - shortly after which Sanda Kan was rescued from going out of business when they were acquired by Kader Holdings in early 2009.

 

Hornby reported this on their website with a letter to shareholders. That letter is no longer posted. All of their financial reports since that date speak of their efforts to change suppliers. A good place to start is the 2009 annual report. The notion that Hornby was then dependent on Kader for their manufacturing was widely discussed at the time.

 

If Kader/Sanda Kan is not Hornby's primary supplier, then who is?

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

EDIT, added the following:

 

Please refer to the Hornby 2012 Annual Report, page 17, in a section on supply chain risk analysis:

The Group purchases goods, in the main, from third party Chinese suppliers due to the significant cost advantage when compared to products manufactured in Europe. The principal supplier to the Group, Sanda Kan, is owned by Kader Holdings Company Limited a Hong Kong based company with interests in the model rail sectors in Europe/US.

Any changes to this could only have happened in the last nine months.

[Coldgunner]

I *think* I managed to pre-order four of the six, just awaiting an email confirmation to assure me the pre-order is pukka.

[robmcg]

....

 

If Kader/Sanda Kan is not Hornby's primary supplier, then who is?

 

Good question.  I'm not sure if Hornby have supply arrangements sufficiently robust or enduring to answer it other than vaguely, but their committment to delivering quality models is heartening. I certainly have no complaints with my recent purchases, two weathered 2-8-0s and two pristine B17s.  The delay in the Great Western tank engines is/was sad I think for Hornby as well as us.

 

Short runs of 500 for the A4s certainly makes buying the full set a challenge.  Hats off to those who pre-ordered early with reliable suppliers.

 

For what it's worth I am very interested in the current values being realised at auction for 00 RTR steam-era models of the super-detail variety, and there are quite a number of Hornby releases which can command well over £100... examples would be a 2005 weathered Duchess of Montrose or a 2012 'William Shakespeare' Britannia, and I'm sure there are others; the 'End of Steam 1968' Black Fives 44781 and 44871   ... I see these latter sometime singly in low-turnover shops at full 2008 retail, which means in NZ around £150 ea.   but I digress (as ever.... sigh)

 

Rob

[brushman47544]

Where did you hear it from. My source is from the Horses Mouth

 

If you have insider knowledge as you imply, perhaps you would like to share with the rest of us who the "Horses Mouth" is? Your comment would be much more credible if you clarified how you know, particularly since most people on RMWeb will, I suspect, have the same understanding as Ozepatriate.

[bigherb]

Where did you learn that?

 

It was my understanding that Sanda Kan which like Bachmann Branch-Line is a Kader Holdings subsidiary, remains the dominant supplier to Hornby for model railway products.

 

Hornby have worked to find a second manufacturing source but it is my understanding that this company still supplies less than half of Hornby's model railway items. I believe they did the 28xx and the GWR eight-coupled tanks but apparently failed on the B17 which I thought went back to Sanda Kan.

I may be wrong but I thought the B17 was being done by another new company they where trying out.

It is probably a shame that Kader beat Hornby to get Sanda Kan when they had their troubles. It's not the best situation having your competitor making you products.

[The Stationmaster]

I may be wrong but I thought the B17 was being done by another new company they where trying out.

It is probably a shame that Kader beat Hornby to get Sanda Kan when they had their troubles. It's not the best situation having your competitor making you products.

I don't think there was ever any question of Hornby even thinking of acquiring Sanda Kan let alone actually trying to buy the company - which was massively larger than Hornby with thousands of employees and a number of factories (not that such a situation stopped some takeovers back in pre-crecession days).

[Ozexpatriate]

It is probably a shame that Kader beat Hornby to get Sanda Kan when they had their troubles.

It's interesting that you bring that up. I went back to Hornby's 2009 annual report  yesterday. It says:

The most significant challenge has been to maintain continuity of supplies from our largest vendor in China (Sanda Kan). During the year (2008) this supplier faced serious financial problems arising from the debt burden it had carried since its heavily leveraged purchase by a venture capital investor in 2004. We maintained close contact with all interested parties during the greatest period of difficulty between July and November 2008. During this period, in order to ensure that our ongoing supplies would be protected, we incurred due diligence costs in a process that may have led to Hornby acquiring this supplier. These costs are identified separately in note 1. In the event, the supplier was acquired in January 2009 by a well resourced Hong Kong company which is a well established supplier to the toy and model railway industries (Kader).

Items in (parentheses) are mine.

I don't think there was ever any question of Hornby even thinking of acquiring Sanda Kan let alone actually trying to buy the company - which was massively larger than Hornby with thousands of employees and a number of factories (not that such a situation stopped some takeovers back in pre-crecession days).

Which is a very reasonable guess why Hornby could not, or at least chose not to, acquire Sanda Kan.

[bigherb]

That saves me looking up where I had read it.

[Ozexpatriate]

It's not the best situation having your competitor making you products.

No, it isn't, but we tend to look at this situation very much through the prism of the competition between Hornby and Bachmann Branch-Line.

 

Kader's viewpoint is different. Their Sanda Kan subsidiary is a large supplier to the world model railway market including some prominent US brands like Atlas and Walthers, and Hornby's large volume represents a big revenue source for Kader. Reducing Hornby's business, reduces Kader's top line - it doesn't automatically flip to Bachmann Branch-Line.

 

Doubtless there are some economies with their vertical segments at Bachmann Europe Plc, but as a business they are still motivated to maximize all their revenue streams. The healthy competition is also a way of making sure their vertical subsidiaries don't get complacent and remain competitive.

 

It's not different to a food processing plant that ships tins of food with different labels for different supermarket chains, or a TV manufacturer that ships the same hardware in different cases for different brands. The manufacturer can gain a lot of market share this way.

[G-BOAF]

Its possible to pre-order Bittern and Dominion of Canada with Kernow. Intersting on two counts, only these are availble (and not all six which were a few days ago), which means the presumbaly now know how many they ar getting and are counting their pre-orders accordingly!.

[Coldgunner]

Put some cash aside, looks like I've got 5 reserved!

[Andy Y]

As a note about the distribution of allocations it would appear from a couple of sources that some retailers did place orders as soon as contacted by their reps to ensure they got an allocation whereas it may be deduced that some retailers didn't make that order as early, leaving it until they were next due to see a rep, so it may appear that some retailers took pre-orders from their customers before they'd submitted an order to their rep and/or been advised of the allocation.

[Dan Hill]

I'm not too sure but I think I could be alright. Looking at Hattons the pre-order icon no longer appears on any of the 6 Great Gathering A4's but does on Great Snipe and 60019 with 2 tenders, so could be a sign that Hattons have all of their allocation sold.

[robmcg]

As an inveterate watcher of values on auction sites I shall be curious to see how the value of the 6 'Great Gathering' models varies over the coming year or years.

 

I wouldn't make any predictions, though.

 

Anyone want to offer me the un-opened boxed mint 'End of Steam 1968' Black 5 pair please. 10s/6d waiting...

[Coldgunner]

Managed to pre-order all except Dwight D. Eisenhower. Although I can see people cancelling orders etc when they realise the price they have chosen to pay.

[Trains4U]

All retailers have had an allocation.

Once all retailers have been contacted to see if they want to accept their allocation, any remaining will be offered to other retailers that have expressed an interest.

 

Given that pretty much every retailer has requested more than their allocation, it is unlikely that more will become available

 

I also believe that the largest single allocation is around 10 sets.

 

I also understand that retailers have to order in full sets (To encourage the sale of the locos as a set)

Each loco contains a voucher, when all six vouchers are collected, the owner can send off for a FREE cabinet - though there is a £10 P+P charge.

 

This is a good quality wood and glass case (Similar to a Picture pride product) and is worth over £100.

 

We had already had orders for full sets that meet our allocation and we can't now accept any more orders. 

We would have taken five times our allocation had it been available.

[Ian Hargrave]

Thank you,Gareth,for sharing this information with us.It might have been helpful if this had been forthcoming from the initial Hornby press release in December. Witholding information from the customer base (ourselves) as Hornby have done,lays them open to the charge of cynical manipulation of those customers. At the very least ,it is underhand and can only foster a lack of trust. I post this more in sorrow than in anger. It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. This is no reflection on you as you remain one of the more honourable retailers.

[Coldgunner]

Tell you what, at £170 each, Hornby stand to make a tidy sum. I'm umming and ahhing the Bachmann DoC too, as its a livery I've experienced her in.

 

Hi, my names Coldgunner and I'm an A4holic...

[The Stationmaster]

Thank you,Gareth,for sharing this information with us.It might have been helpful if this had been forthcoming from the initial Hornby press release in December. Witholding information from the customer base (ourselves) as Hornby have done,lays them open to the charge of cynical manipulation of those customers. At the very least ,it is underhand and can only foster a lack of trust. I post this more in sorrow than in anger. It leaves a nasty taste in the mouth. This is no reflection on you as you remain one of the more honourable retailers.

 

I don't quite understand this post.  The information issued by RMweb/MRL made it crystal clear that there would be 500 sets and a month ago page 1 of this thread said exactly the same -

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/65398-hornbys-2013-announcements/

 

So clearly Hornby have not 'withheld' any information that this range would be limited in number - they said it from the outset, very clearly.  Whether or not retailers manage to obtain stocks of the loco is another matter but I would have thought it  fairly obvious that Hornby would be allocating on the sort of basis explained by Gareth (and, as earlier reported by Andy, at least one other retailer).  If anyone has been 'underhand' it is most likely to have been those retailers who gaily took orders without making clear to prospective purchasers that supplies were likely to be limited and that they might not be successful.

[brushman47544]

Hornby has also explained these arrangements in the catalogue and the worlding implies to me at least that Hornby expects the majority if not all to be sold as sets of six. And if all retailers are being offered an allocation, there may well still be some available, perhaps more so from retailers without an Internet presence.

[G-BOAF]

Hornby will only sell complete sets to retailers. But retailers can then do what they want with their allocation. If they were only to be sold as sets, then why would they have individual product numbers and be individually priced?

[brushman47544]

I didn't say they would only be sold as sets, just that perhaps Hornby expects most to be sold that way. Of course retailers can decide for themselves, but if they can only have them as full sets will they not prefer to sell them that way? How many people will want to pay a premium for one or two? Yes some people on here have said they are planning to do so, but I can't see them being in the majority just to get any A4, it will be people who want a specific loco for that time period/livery. So with only 500 of each available my money is on complete sets so retailers don't risk finding themselves with odd models left unsold. It's only my opinion but we shall see, particularly if retailers get fewer sets than they would like or expected.

[micklner]

I didn't say they would only be sold as sets, just that perhaps Hornby expects most to be sold that way. Of course retailers can decide for themselves, but if they can only have them as full sets will they not prefer to sell them that way? How many people will want to pay a premium for one or two? Yes some people on here have said they are planning to do so, but I can't see them being in the majority just to get any A4, it will be people who want a specific loco for that time period/livery. So with only 500 of each available my money is on complete sets so retailers don't risk finding themselves with odd models left unsold. It's only my opinion but we shall see, particularly if retailers get fewer sets than they would like or expected.

 

Everybody on here who actually wants them, say they are sold out . It is therefore hardly a problem for the retailers to worry about.

 

Good marketing by Hornby ( who probably could have sold even more) and good for retailers too.