Coldgunner Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 I think a lot of people are picking up the loco's not previously available, like Ike, which is the remaining one I've not secured. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Gaugemaster (no connection, other than a brilliant turnaround on a recent order) seem to have all six available to pre-order on limited availiabilty (as of now). If anyone's still looking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 21, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 21, 2013 Thank you for that information. My latest posting on this topic seems to have caused irritation in certain quarters. I made contact with one retailer who has very recently put them on his website only yesterday asking whether,in fact,he would actually be able to fulfil an order. He replied that there was no guarantee and that it would be first come,first served: and here I quote--- 'It looks like to secure this item buyers may just have to register at multiple places and hope that one of the places will be able to supply the items '. I see no reason to change my original position. I do not think that this is either ethical or desirable. This requires,I trust, no question of 'understanding' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldgunner Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Just tried to pre-order through Gaugemaster, seems you have to make a full payment if paying by debit. Whether that's their system or not I don't know, but I don't like paying for stuff months in advance. My quest for 60008 continues... edit: on a further note, I've pre-ordered via major retailers that I've used many times before, so fingers crossed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 22, 2013 Author Share Posted January 22, 2013 Coldgunner, have you tried phoning them to see if they will take a reservation with card details without actual payment? This would seem reasonable. Still, sounds like you're sorted. So a complete set remains at Gaugemaster (in theory) Mr Hargrave - I totally agree its not ethical or desirable,but seems to be a necessity at present, what can one do? Can't beat 'em... Not that one would apply this rule to other areas of one's life or society (I write as one who generally regards themselves as an ethical individual). On the plus side, if multiple pre-orders come through, there will be a certain amount of availaiblity of cancelled orders come delivery time, and whatever stock is left will fly off the shelves. But doesn't help those without pre-orders, or those unertain of the validity of those orders. I can't think of any other limited editons causing these problems. Clearly most other 'very limited runs <=500' are retailer commissions, so you will be ordering with the outlet who has 100% of the production. The only other case I can personally think of was the Australian Flying Scotsman - limited 1000 but only about 300 available in the UK and very hard to place orders with UK suppliers (I got mine from Aus in the end). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2013 Thank you for that.At least someone sees my cause for concern. It seems we are heading for a market free-for-all. Surely,the distribution and allocation could have been better organised than this.I am sure no one intended this but it looks as if retailers (some) are still unsure of what will happen,let alone the likes of you and I.Seemingly,some are 'inthe know',whilst others are in the dark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 AFAIK, Distribution (Allocation) was based upon total spend by the retailer in the last year. How can it be better organised than that? Given that 2013 preview orders take place at margate over a 3-4 week period, first come-first served wouldn't be fair. This is the first opportunity most retailers have to place their new-year orders. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2013 Be that as it may,the effcct of it all in real terms is that prospective customers are placing multiple orders upon which many are likely to renage and retailers are taking orders which they may not be able to fulfil,which,I'm afraid,brings me back to where I started. I completely understand your position,specifically,Gareth,as a retailer with an impeccable reputation,but on this side of the fence,as it were,there is another perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 Then the problem lies with those retailers taking advance orders before knowing what they were allocated. We need to look at this also from the perspective that demand has been created by scarcity. If the number produced was greater, retailers would be ordering less as there would be less of a need to try and corner the market. If Hornby produced 1500 or even 1000 of each, chances are a quantity of locos would remain unsold and left in the warehouse. What Hornby have done is make a true limited edition collection that will maintain or even increase in value for those with the timeliness and funds to acquire it. It also guarantees revenue for Hornby and (To a smaller extent) the retailer. If any orders placed with me are reneged upon, then a significant deposit will be lost... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted January 22, 2013 Share Posted January 22, 2013 I have no problem with what Hornby are doing and find the mutterings of unethical practice quite frankly ludicrous - we are talking model railways, not lifesaving drugs or arms dealing! However I think it also helps make the case for supporting a local retailer because at times like this it's one way of ensuring that you get looked after when items are in short supply. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold DaveF Posted January 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2013 Many collectables are made in fixed numbers, and have been for many years, so why should Hornby do anything different? After all not many people seem to complain about prints, books, glass and even bronzes produced in pre determined numbers. We also have to remember that not only are firms in business to make a profit for their shareholders/owners, they provide employment. If they don't make a profit, and up up with lots of unsold stock they eventually close. Then what happens to the people who work for them? So producing a limited number which are all sold helps keep people in jobs, rather than being left with unsold stock which ties up capital and could eventually lead to the demise of a business. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2013 I have no problem with what Hornby are doing and find the mutterings of unethical practice quite frankly ludicrous - we are talking model railways, not lifesaving drugs or arms dealing! However I think it also helps make the case for supporting a local retailer because at times like this it's one way of ensuring that you get looked after when items are in short supply. I am not given to muttering---at least not yet---and have tried,I think,in civil fashion,to express a point of view,to which I hold.It seems,at least,that I have allowed a free expression of such views as some of us hold. It is a pity that they have not been expressed in more temperate language. NO PROBLEM with that,I trust? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 22, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 22, 2013 I am not given to muttering---at least not yet---and have tried,I think,in civil fashion,to express a point of view,to which I hold.It seems,at least,that I have allowed a free expression of such views as some of us hold. It is a pity that they have not been expressed in more temperate language. NO PROBLEM with that,I trust? I'm still trying to work out what the problem is? Originally you were somewhat condemnatory of Hornby for reasons which I still cannot understand - it was fairly obvious that if they only produce 500 sets they are going to be in very limited supply and that allocation will almost certainly be a result. I would agree wholeheartedly with any condemnation of retailers who blithely accept orders without knowing if they can fulfill them - the least one would expect is a warning when ordering that quantities will be limited and that you might not be lucky. And I can understand absolutely your point about people placing orders with a number of retailers but that, I suspect goes on with many limited editions and retailers have their own mechanisms for dealing with it - one being to seek a deposit, especially as a full set will retail for in excess of £1,000 at RRP, at that level some retailers would probably be well advised to seek a deposit especially from 'new' customers. And yes, there undoubtedly is a 'market free-for-all' (as you have termed it) because we are talking about something which is being offered for sale in an open market and in limited quantities. It is clearly up to retailers to make sure that their customers understand that they might be unlucky - and some seem to be doing exactly that, so what exactly is wrong with such a process? If I had wanted this set of A4s, which from the start have been clearly advertised as a limited quantity, I would have spoken as soon as possible to one of the retailers to whom I give my regular custom to place an order and ask what hope there would be of it being fulfilled? If the first couldn't help I would try the other - and if neither could help I would consider myself not to be one of the lucky 500 and either keep the money in the bank or spend it on something else. That is how truly limited editions work in a free market and to be honest I can't really see a more equitable way around it - the Hornby allocation system as described by Gareth sounds as good a way as any of deciding allocations and better than most alternatives - what would be a better one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 I don't see a problem. The serious collector will I presume have a regular arrangement with a retailer. The modeller will ignore this issue and do what he usually does, buy the nearest standard version and alter the details to suit. The only person to suffer will be the odd individual who just wants to start collecting at this particular moment in time. I know people moan about the non supply of some Hornby models. I have been known to get a bit touchy about not being able to get a certain item. But then that is just me being mean and not wanting to pay extra postage on a single coach or wagon. Try collecting Gutzold or Mehano if you want a challenge, or even some Roco issues can be difficult to obtain. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 Mr Lamb Fair point, regarding what the 'serious modeller' would do, regarding obtaining these locos, but I'm no sure I totally agree: 60007 as preserved is very difficult, unless you have a supply of double chimney's, which many people, even the serious modeller don't (is there a white metal double chimney available?) The Hornby part is not avalable as a spare. True there have been two BR blue A4s made, but both are expensive: One is Sound Fitted (Sparrow Hawk), and has a non-corridor tender, so is a non-starter. The other is part of the Rare Bird pack, and retails at over £200. TMC have used the Rare Bird model to produced 60007, fitted a doube chimney and are charging more than the Hornby limited edition (and even at that rice there are some detail discrepencies) So for Gresley at least, this is the ONLY option, without resorting to very expensive mods, or a complete repaint, is this limited edition. The others can be 'converted', providing you can find the right base model most of those that fit the criteria are either sound fitted or themsleves limited editions, which means the Great Gathering models still seem attractive price wise. Brief look through the back catalogue. Mallard as of 2013 can be created easily from a standard 1938 Hornby Mallard (although seldom in stock it seems) with addition of plaque, and polished metal fittings. Bittern can potentially be converted from Mallard, if you can obtain an LNER Corridor Tender body, which to my knoweldge has only been produced once with block LNER lettering (2008 Sir Nigel Gresley Limited edition, but with chrome band on bottom). So Bittern as of 2012/3 is a challenge, without resorting to a repaint.... Dominion of Canada as of 2013 can be relatively easily obtained through the new Commonwealth of Australia model (limited edition!), in so doing correcting the errors Hornby appear to have made with nameplate and cabside number sizing. Union of South Africa (as preserved) is a straight forward reworking, providing you can obtain a Limited Edition ‘Empire of India’, or ‘Dominion of Canada’ (double chimney, 1928 Corridor Tender), or 60029 Woodcock (long out of production) or the forthcoming 60019 Bittern (and you'll get an extra tender thrown in!) Dwight D Eisnehower is also straightforward, being convertible from the Digital Sound 60001 Sir Ronal Matthews, or Sparrow Hawk 60018. From a cursory glance all other Hornby other A4 have either the wrong chimney or tender to accurately reflect the six locos in the guises represented by Hornby. With East Kent Models no longer splitting locomotives for body/tender//chassis, the supply of alternative body and tenders has all but dried up, even for the ‘serious modeller’ As with 60007 TMC are prepared to mix and match parts to get the correct combination, but then end up charging the same price as the Hornby limited edition. So no, I would argue the serious, detailed conscious modern image modeller will be looking hungrily at these models, limited edition or not! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 24, 2013 TMC also offer 'Sparrow Hawk' ( sound module removed,dc analogue at £115 ). I bought one from them late last year because I wanted a genuine early 50's BR blue. It has the correct single chimney. The forthcoming Sir Nigel is not prototypically correct for that era,of course because it then was equipped with a single. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 Yes, I'd forgoton about Kingfisher from the (again limited edition...) scotsman pack, but needs a double chimney to be bittern! And quite correct about Commonwealth of Australia - its got a streamlined tender. Digressing slightly, but on one level its a shame that when Bittern's tender was rebuilt as a corridor tender, the streamlined design was not repicated, as its missing from the lineup of preserved gresley tenders. But then again I guess the bowed ends cost a bit of water space. If you do go down the TMC route for Gresley, see if they can paint the tender top (roughly above cantrail height) black. Their online photographs have left it blue. Also you may want the motion bracket support (which on the prototype holds up the slide bars) , for some reason the Rare Bird Blue A4s had this part missing, so the slide bars appear to be held up by the radius bar (the rod above the slide bars that links to the valve spindles). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted January 24, 2013 Author Share Posted January 24, 2013 I presume this post (second from top on page 13) on LNER forums is NOT correct, if it is, where does this leave those pre-orders that are 'secure' with reputable suppliers? Surely Hornby wouldn't announce a number and then reduce it, that would be far too damanging and leave a lot of retailers with very angry customers. Have I just picked up on a troll? http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8082&start=210 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I presume this post (second from top on page 13) on LNER forums is NOT correct, if it is, where does this leave those pre-orders that are 'secure' with reputable suppliers? Surely Hornby wouldn't announce a number and then reduce it, that would be far too damanging and leave a lot of retailers with very angry customers. Have I just picked up on a troll? I'll find out, it seems very dubious to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I'll find out, it seems very dubious to me. It's been confirmed to me that the exact quantity to be produced is 510 of each, 500 for the release and the remaining ten for Hornby's own use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairburn Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I got the TMC SNG last year, as I wanted a present day version of said loco. I can live with its minor discrepancies. I've ordered Mallard, Union and Bittern from the LE's as I want the UK based locos only. As the order was placed with a larger Hornby stockist, a box shifter, only 3 days after the Hornby announcements, I'm hopeful ill land them. If not, I'll possibly attempt to represent one of the mainline registered Union or Bittern. Mallard must be a decent earner for Hornby v Bachmann's offering, not like they won't do it again. I'd understood the LE's will be wholly representative of the locos as they appear this summer, is that correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2013 I don't see a problem. The serious collector will I presume have a regular arrangement with a retailer. The modeller will ignore this issue and do what he usually does, buy the nearest standard version and alter the details to suit. The only person to suffer will be the odd individual who just wants to start collecting at this particular moment in time. I know people moan about the non supply of some Hornby models. I have been known to get a bit touchy about not being able to get a certain item. But then that is just me being mean and not wanting to pay extra postage on a single coach or wagon. Try collecting Gutzold or Mehano if you want a challenge, or even some Roco issues can be difficult to obtain. Bernard I have an extensive collection of both Gutzold and Roco-very nice they are,too. The issue that now stops me furthering the collection is the price. Now THAT is a challenge,Bernard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 25, 2013 Interesting, if some retailers don't get all the sets they would like... According to the Hornby website, "We will have a small number of complete Great Gathering sets available to buy direct from Hornby. We are not yet taking orders for these sets. Please subscribe to our email newsletter or click the stock notification button and we will email you when we are able to confirm how these will be sold." This is the first paragraph of the Description that appears on the individual product pages for each A4, for SNG see here, http://www.Hornby.com/shop/locomotives/limited-edition-locomotives/r3201-br-4-6-2-sir-nigel-gresley-a4-class-the-great-gathering/. So anyone who wants a complete set and hasn't managed to secure on yet, salvation may be at hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2013 Interesting, if some retailers don't get all the sets they would like... According to the Hornby website, "We will have a small number of complete Great Gathering sets available to buy direct from Hornby. We are not yet taking orders for these sets. Please subscribe to our email newsletter or click the stock notification button and we will email you when we are able to confirm how these will be sold." This is the first paragraph of the Description that appears on the individual product pages for each A4, for SNG see here, http://www.Hornby.com/shop/locomotives/limited-edition-locomotives/r3201-br-4-6-2-sir-nigel-gresley-a4-class-the-great-gathering/. So anyone who wants a complete set and hasn't managed to secure on yet, salvation may be at hand. The logic of this based on the information of Andy's post (no.75) is that there will be no more than 10 of these sets and probably several fewer - unless they are taking some out of the 500 'for release'. But, whichever, it is also logical that Hornby should retain some for direct sale in accordance with some of the philosophy they have been expounding recently with emphasis on retail sales by more direct routes and via their franchises. Not at all a bad idea for a company which needs to generate some income because if they sell them as 'sets' they will be grossing over £1,000 on each one. The next step will be the interesting one - if this approach to marketing with a truly limited edition, in contemporary terms, is successful what are they likely to do next? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 The next step will be the interesting one - if this approach to marketing with a truly limited edition, in contemporary terms, is successful what are they likely to do next? Take a leaf out of the Roco book. Underwrite the painting of DoG in some amazing new livery and release a model to match. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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