DavidB-AU Posted January 10, 2013 Share Posted January 10, 2013 BRUSSELS — In proposals likely to infuriate Germany, the EU executive will this month urge an end to Europe's last rail monopolies and so open the lucrative passenger market to competition from 2019. http://www.france24.com/en/20130110-eu-moves-end-state-rail-monopolies Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 Should be good for a few SNCF strikes, then. The love of public services here makes Bob Crowe look like a Tory! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 A plague of rail franchises for Europe then - Will DB = Deutsche Branson in the future? XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 I've not used any of the state run systems on the European mainland since the 1980s! however, when I did they were no way comparable with the old BR. Cheap, clean and punctual springs to mind. How do they compare today? A friend who regularly travels to Italy, has nothing but praise for the Italian Rail network. Would removing the monopoly from the state run system give us more fragmentation and higher prices? Bring them into line with the UK! Now that would be a real turn off for the rest of Europe! Regards Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 My wife has just booked a return trip to visit her mother at the end of the month. East Coast Northallerton -KX, Eurostar St Pancras - Paris, SNCF Paris - St Pierre des Corps and return in all cases. The SNCF leg cost more than the other two combined. The grass isn't always greener..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Insanity spreads. We have no competition for rail passengers that I can see. If I want to go to London I can choose between Virgin and Virgin. How is that better than when the choice was between BR and BR? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thos Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I think the Belgian government will be glad of an excuse to get rid of the railways. The impression is that the SNCB is only concerned with Flanders, and the Wallone part goes on strike for the least reason. The latest was when the SNCB wanted to cut back on freight services because the Users were using freight less, so the unions went on strike cutting all freight services - just the thing to keep the remaining users on the rails. The other big argument is that the government are too slow installing automatic cut-outs when trains burn red lights. Forgive me, but I thought that was why trains had drivers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 Insanity spreads. We have no competition for rail passengers that I can see. If I want to go to London I can choose between Virgin and Virgin. How is that better than when the choice was between BR and BR? The original idea was indeed to have competition, but this seemed to get lost a few years ago when "one terminus one operator" in London became the vogue. Only InterCity and Suburban TOCs now co-exist, e.g. at Euston and KX. At Paddington even that was unacceptable. But, while the customer may not be getting the best deal, we do remain in an era when expenditure on the UK network is at unprecedented levels, with schemes and enhancements, not to mention renewals, of an order that BR could only dream of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm not certain but not at Liverpool Street too, Ian? Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 I'm not certain but not at Liverpool Street too, Ian? Best, Pete. I think so, Pete, but am not certain, either - hence "e.g."! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I think the Belgian government will be glad of an excuse to get rid of the railways. The impression is that the SNCB is only concerned with Flanders, and the Wallone part goes on strike for the least reason. The latest was when the SNCB wanted to cut back on freight services because the Users were using freight less, so the unions went on strike cutting all freight services - just the thing to keep the remaining users on the rails. The other big argument is that the government are too slow installing automatic cut-outs when trains burn red lights. Forgive me, but I thought that was why trains had drivers. The unions at SNCF have had the same policy about striking to keep freight traffic on rail- it has not been a conspicuous success.. I presume in that last paragraph you mean that the government/SNCB have been too slow in installing any form of Automatic Train Protection to stop trains passing danger signals. Certainly, it is the driver's responsibility to ensure that red (closed) signals are respected, but there many, well-documented, cases where this is not happened; sometimes the driver has suffered a lapse of concentration, or been taken ill, or on some occasions the signal might be difficult to read under certain conditions (low winter sun, new catenary masts having been installed etc) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruffalo Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 I am no longer a fan of the EU, feeling it is a bloated unaccountable bureaucracy designed for self-preservation! Oh, I have just realised that could be a decription of Westminster too! Sadly, the EU bureaucrats would rather waste more money from the hard-pressed tax-payers of a few EU countries than evaluate the results of rail privatisation in the UK from which they could form reasoned policy. It matters not one iota to Brussels as everyone there gets first-class tickets for wherever they feel the urge to go anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Having used Dutch Railways in the past much better than the UK, however no doubt the Eurocrats need to find something more to wreck! XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well if nothing else they can look at the UK Omnishambles and develop a model that reflects intelligent thinking rather than the ideologically driven fraud schemes that so personify BR's privatisation and the subsequent scams, sorry, schemes that followed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 If fares are significantly cheaper in some countries it must surely be because the subsidy from the government is greater. As far as I can tell there are only two ways of paying for train journeys. Either the customer pays it all or the taxpayer chips in a portion too. For railways to go truly "private" there should be no subsidies. People will then begin to realise just how expensive it is to run a railway. On the other hand governments prefer to pay out subsidies to keep people using the trains because the alternative would be horrendous road traffic. You just can't win in these situations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well, I had no love for BR when it existed - but you have to dig deeper to find out the real reason. Usually something to do with funding cuts at the whim of central government....the good gets caught up with the dross. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2013 I wonder if the EU plan was conceived after some eurocrat rode on the Swiss Federal Railways stock on the Basle - Strasbourg - Luxembourg - Brussels line and experienced tatty coaches with empty toilet water tanks unfilled prior to departure from Basle? I once spent 3 hours on such a train between Basle & Luxembourg in a first class coach! Yuk! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Network Rail is publicy (government) owned - will this have to be privatised ? If so you could rename it - RAILTRACK !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Time to renationalise the lot, electrify the lot, subsidise it correctly, reinvest all profits, and get some knowledgeable engineering orientated management in charge. (yes - some bean counters will be needed - just a few). Won't happen though. The current set up in the UK is a fiasco. Remember a few years ago whilst the WCML was being upgraded, Midland Mainline ran HST sets from Manchester to Marylebone via Chesterfield, competitive prices too, good service with a free cuppa !!. Gone now, this service ended when the WCML work was done. If we keep the current franchise system then more competition like that is needed, LOTS more. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium melmerby Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 11, 2013 If fares are significantly cheaper in some countries it must surely be because the subsidy from the government is greater. As far as I can tell there are only two ways of paying for train journeys. Either the customer pays it all or the taxpayer chips in a portion too. For railways to go truly "private" there should be no subsidies. People will then begin to realise just how expensive it is to run a railway. On the other hand governments prefer to pay out subsidies to keep people using the trains because the alternative would be horrendous road traffic. You just can't win in these situations.In the UK the problem with railway's costs is that they have to pay all their infrastructure costs, whereas the road infrastructure is paid out of general taxation. (don't go on about road taxes/fuel taxes, they are today just part of general taxation.) As long as you are a UK taxpayer you pay for the roads, however much or little you use them. This keeps the cost of using the roads artificially low on a personal level. If we had a pay per usage e.g. higher fuel costs and zero car tax it would be fairer and maybe give the users who use the roads the most a more accurate feeling of the true cost. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Well if nothing else they can look at the UK Omnishambles and develop a model that reflects intelligent thinking rather than the ideologically driven fraud schemes that so personify BR's privatisation and the subsequent scams, sorry, schemes that followed. That would be nice! Instead, why do I get the feeling that some eurocrat (prat!) has looked at BRinc. and thought "Aha! There's a load of cash to be made!?!" Cynical, Moi? John E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 Remember a few years ago whilst the WCML was being upgraded, Midland Mainline ran HST sets from Manchester to Marylebone via Chesterfield, competitive prices too, good service with a free cuppa !!. Gone now, this service ended when the WCML work was done. If we keep the current franchise system then more competition like that is needed, LOTS more. St Pancras rather than Marylebone. It aped part of the route of the original Blue Pullman - obviously certain bits of that original journey no longer being available to use. I used an up service in April 2004, and was one of not many on that train. It was slower, of course, than Virgin, which matters to most people making such a journey. It got me to St P in plenty of time for my afternoon meeting on the Kings Cross project, so that was fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2013 In reality all this appears to be about is getting a proper implementation of 91/440 to ensure the clear distinction between infrastructure and train operating costs which it demands. Now I do, genuinely, say 'all' but it is totally at odds with the idea in many mainland European countries and in some that is much a political matter as anything to do with railways. But at the end of it all it is about creating a level playing field for open access and that is something the French have been doing their best to 'slow down' for more than a decade. In Belgium, and I believe also in Italy, the problem is different because much of the railway organisation is actually part of government and many railway staff at HQ etc level are civil servants with some of the weird Belgian bureaucratic nonsense that leads to in the strange 'double country' which is Belgium. In France the situation is rather different with the huge SNCF bureaucracy fighting to maintain its privileges and benefits (for example if Olddudders and I had worked at our grade on SNCF in Paris instead of on BR in London we would have had a free 'grace & favour' apartment in a nice part of central Paris in addition to whatever we managed to buy for ourselves as a house in the country or wherever). SNCF HQ buildings, and staffing, in the late 1990s had very much the air of BR in the 1960s although there were a few trying to bring about change but the bureaucracy and inefficiency was - and in some cases still is - staggering. And you try explaining open access to SNCF senior managers as I had to in the late 1990s - it is simply beyond their thinking. Incidentally talking the Italians and FS they once provided one of the funniest sights I have ever seen at a meeting where having agreed a detailed curse of action at the previous meeting they came to the next one, several months later, having done none of it - the reaction of the Austrian (in particular) delegates even exceed that of the DB while the Swiss took cover. Best 'free' (i.e. I'm not involved) meeting I ever attended as at least no one was threatening to hit me (as had happened once at a BR meeting, and that was someone from SR local management). European freight shows that open access can work but for passenger working it still needs a more financially level playing field, especially in France. And on a final note - the last train I travlled on in Switzerland was 16 minutes late over the border into Germany, due to engineering work! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 The EU was supposedly about trading back in 1972, but then trading can be used to support politics particularly the politics of money grabbing. Other EU countries watch the UK with interest, and maybe we will will them something else to chew over before long. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted January 11, 2013 Share Posted January 11, 2013 Yes, It was St Pancras, don't know why I typed Marylebone - got GC on the brain at the moment (just got a Bachman 'Director' - lovely model). I used the MML service a couple of times, only thing wrong with it was that it wasn't a Peak on a rake of Mk 1's. Just think, even in early BR days you had a choice of 3 routes Manchester to London, WCML, Midland and of course the GC over Woodhead via Sheffield. Birmingham to London has Virgin and the excellent Chiltern service (this time to Marylebone !). Other major cities need at least 2 providers on the main long distance routes to enable competition. A few have allready, but not enough. Not everyone wants or needs high speed / high cost. By the way I think HS2 will be a massive waste of money. A shiny new toy for the rich & priveleged only. We will still have a nodding donkey from Wigan to Manchester and the rest of our local routes, with a few secondhand EMU's on the newly electrified lines. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidB-AU Posted January 12, 2013 Author Share Posted January 12, 2013 By the way I think HS2 will be a massive waste of money. A shiny new toy for the rich & priveleged only.TGV, ICE, Shinkansen, etc are not expensive toys for the rich. What makes the UK so different that high speed rail would not work the same way as it does in every other country? Cheers David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.