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EU moves to end state rail monopolies


DavidB-AU

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If fares are significantly cheaper in some countries it must surely be because the subsidy from the government is greater. As far as I can tell there are only two ways of paying for train journeys. Either the customer pays it all or the taxpayer chips in a portion too. For railways to go truly "private" there should be no subsidies. People will then begin to realise just how expensive it is to run a railway. On the other hand governments prefer to pay out subsidies to keep people using the trains because the alternative would be horrendous road traffic. You just can't win in these situations.

 

Another possible reason is that I suspect British railway staff are paid more than their European counterparts (though admittedly the cost of living is also probably a lot lower in those countries too)....

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Another possible reason is that I suspect British railway staff are paid more than their European counterparts (though admittedly the cost of living is also probably a lot lower in those countries too)....

 

Not necessarily the case with France (especially if you include their 'fringe benefits' and the extra month's pay they get every December), definitely lower pay rates in the UK than in the Scandinavian countries, and some rates in Germany are higher (although some might be lower).  Overall comparing Driver's rates across Europe there has been some 'escalation' in Britain over the last decade or so but part of that is due to changes in conditions and part of it on some companies is due to extensive Rest Day working.

 

What does seem to have happened here however is escalation in salary levels at the top end of companies and adding the cost of any owning group etc costs above that while the extreme bottom end (train despatch etc) is possibly - I'm not entirely sure - lower on balance due to very limited fringe benefits such as little or no free travel etc.  

 

The other problem is comparing productivity which can be quite difficult and cost of living etc differences also distort things.  However I've no doubt at all that some of the mainland management structures are considerably more bureaucratic than was the case in the UK  in even BR days let alone today.

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Birmingham to London has Virgin and the excellent Chiltern service (this time to Marylebone !).

Brit15

Don't forget the London Midland service. Ideal if speed isn't essential as it is a lot cheaper (at least on the couple of times I used it recently)

Best if you try and get a seat in a 350/1 as there is more room than the 350/2!

 

Keith

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TGV, ICE, Shinkansen, etc are not expensive toys for the rich. What makes the UK so different that high speed rail would not work the same way as it does in every other country?

 

Cheers

David

 

Cost of tickets, especially peak time fares.

 

Brit15

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Cost of tickets, especially peak time fares.

 

Brit15

Interesting I just did a quick comparison looking at a single journey in 2nd/Standard Class this coming Thursday comparing Amsterdam - Paris by Thalys with GNER from Newcastle to London, as near as dammit the same journey time (within 10 minutes) travelling at about 10h00 (so not peak).  The cheaper of the two is GNER at £60.50, the Thalys fare was a bit over 100 Euros.

 

OK so it's a single comparison and yes you get can get some very good deals over on the European mainland (especially if you book through DB) but still enough to show that all that glistens is not gold (in the form of cheaper fares) on the other side of our moat.

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I was in France last week when this was announced and covered in the Press. Remarkably little reaction but then it has been expected.

 

Will it really happen? I doubt it, apart from some cherry-picking (probably by DB or NS) of some paths on Paris - Lyon and Paris - Lille.

 

Our region (Languedoc-Roussillon) currently has all bus fares at €1 and plans to extend this to most regional rail services including, remarkably, the Train Jaune de Cerdagne. They reckon that the extra usage will mean that they do not have to subsidise rail services any more than at present. I welcome the idea but I can't see that it  works on the maths.

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Insanity spreads.

 

We have no competition for rail passengers that I can see. If I want to go to London I can choose between Virgin and Virgin. How is that better than when the choice was between BR and BR?

 

Manchester to London is a good case in point when it comes to route competition. I used the ‘Project Rio’ service on a number of occasions although the journey was an hour longer than via the WCML but the fares were reasonable and MML provided free tea and coffee in Standard. The journey time would, of course, have been shorter if the ‘real’ Midland main line via Bakewell had been available and the service had not been limited to the pedestrian pace as a result of using the Hope Valley.

However, come the completion of the West Coast upgrade and Project Rio is discontinued. “Insufficient capacity on the MML” said the DfT but I suspect that neither the Department nor Virgin wanted the competition. The WCML upgrade had hoovered up large amounts of cash and the DfT didn’t want any dilution of returns from the existing West Coast franchise. Virgin, equally, had a self interest as the financial returns from their VHF timetable could have been adversely affected by competition.

The fact is that Manchester to London, which by rail has an astonishing percentage of the market, is a private monopoly. The only way to take real advantage of the VHF timetable is by buying either an off-peak return or an anytime return. The former is £77 having just risen from, I think, £66 and the latter is the oft-quoted and eye-watering £308. ATOC, of course, will tell you that “there are many bargains to be had by booking in advance” but which then means being restricted to a specified service which renders a 20 minute frequency meaningless. What an irritating organisation ATOC is, who tell us constantly that what we have is the best in the best of all possible worlds. What utter, self-serving tosh.

The simple fact is that the Department is terrified of route competition, as having screwed the highest (later, often illusory) returns out of franchise bidders they don’t want anything which may smack of a better service for customers to affect their treasured outcomes. Wrexham and Shropshire anyone? Pour encourager les autres . . .

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I would like to raise some points here. When any system is nationalised it is run by the government, that's the crowd who think our money is theirs, to waste a sthey think fit. When I think back to BR I remember filthy trains, lousy organisation and rail workers who thought passengers were a nuisance.

The competition does exist in Britain today, not universally I'll grant, but definately there. To travel to London from Shrewsbury I can choose between Arriva or London Midland to Brum. From there I can use Virgin, London Midland or, after a five minute walk, Chiltern. I,ve been doing this trip a lot the last couple of years and have found it very good. Once Virgins' agreed monopoly of some stations expires it should be even better. Businessmen may not always be the best at everything, but in sixty years I have yet to see anything politicians are good at except feathering their own nests.

Nationalisation, no thank you.

Oh, just remembered, who's that crowd that organise the franchise system? Oh yes, the government, nuff said?

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I would like to raise some points here. When any system is nationalised it is run by the government, that's the crowd who think our money is theirs, to waste a sthey think fit. When I think back to BR I remember filthy trains, lousy organisation and rail workers who thought passengers were a nuisance.

The competition does exist in Britain today, not universally I'll grant, but definately there. To travel to London from Shrewsbury I can choose between Arriva or London Midland to Brum. From there I can use Virgin, London Midland or, after a five minute walk, Chiltern. I,ve been doing this trip a lot the last couple of years and have found it very good. Once Virgins' agreed monopoly of some stations expires it should be even better. Businessmen may not always be the best at everything, but in sixty years I have yet to see anything politicians are good at except feathering their own nests.

Nationalisation, no thank you.

Oh, just remembered, who's that crowd that organise the franchise system? Oh yes, the government, nuff said?

I find your view of BR not only interesting but incredibly inaccurate - maybe you came up against the wrong bit some time.  But organisation wise BR was years, nay light years, ahead of most railways on the European mainland in terms of both efficiency and effectiveness.  The main reason trains got 'filthy' was due to the unsavoury people who spread their litter on the floors, their food and drink on tables and themselves just about anywhere in the lavatories - don't believe me, you just spend one night turn in a major carriage cleaning depot if you don't believe just how messy passengers could be.  Biut soem stock was old and rather careworn (lack of money from Govt) and difficult to clean so you have a point about dirtiness/grubbiness in its case.

 

And yes - some staff couldn't care but an awful lot did and did a difficult job in trying circumstances which at times became immensely frustrating due to the behaviour and rank stupidity, rudeness, and sheer villainy, of a tiny percentage of passengers.

 

I'm sorry but generalisations work two ways - as you would soon find out after clearing up the bodies and mess left by a drunken punch-up between a group of 'passengers'.

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Interesting I just did a quick comparison looking at a single journey in 2nd/Standard Class this coming Thursday comparing Amsterdam - Paris by Thalys with GNER from Newcastle to London, as near as dammit the same journey time (within 10 minutes) travelling at about 10h00 (so not peak).  The cheaper of the two is GNER at £60.50, the Thalys fare was a bit over 100 Euros.

 

OK so it's a single comparison and yes you get can get some very good deals over on the European mainland (especially if you book through DB) but still enough to show that all that glistens is not gold (in the form of cheaper fares) on the other side of our moat.

 

Another interesting comparison here - also suggesting that it's not anywhere near as simple as 'UK=Expensive Private and Europe=Cheap Nationalised'

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.UO6N2m-pBmo

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Another interesting comparison here - also suggesting that it's not anywhere near as simple as 'UK=Expensive Private and Europe=Cheap Nationalised'

http://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-train-fares-comparison.html#.UO6N2m-pBmo

That certainly was a pleasant surprise, TVM, Martyn!

 

As I have not had to buy a ticket in many years - BR employee - I nevertheless feel that fares have risen in real terms since Privatisation, although that, too, may be wrong. After all, InterCity was using quotas for advanced bookings more than 20 years ago, on the airline model.

 

And the TOCs don't always get it right, either. I was witness to an Inter-TOC pricing battle a dozen or more years ago that threatened to reduce a £5m-a-year flow to a £3m-a-year flow, and that would not have been in anyone's interest - except the lucky traveller, perhaps! Eventually the TOCs did a deal at senior level, and fares settled down again, or probably back up, actually.

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..........Eventually the TOCs did a deal at senior level, and fares settled down again, or probably back up, actually.

Doing any sort of "deal" on prices is anti-competitive, just ask British Airways.. If what you've just said actually happened then there should be two TOCs anxiously awaiting the "knock on the door".

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I am no longer a fan of the EU, feeling it is a bloated unaccountable bureaucracy designed for self-preservation! Oh, I have just realised that could be a decription of Westminster too!

Sadly, the EU bureaucrats would rather waste more money from the hard-pressed tax-payers of a few EU countries than evaluate the results of rail privatisation in the UK from which they could form reasoned policy. It matters not one iota to Brussels as everyone there gets first-class tickets for wherever they feel the urge to go anyway.

 

 

I think the EU wants to do away with other state monopolies so that it becomes the only monopoly in Europe........

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Doing any sort of "deal" on prices is anti-competitive, just ask British Airways.. If what you've just said actually happened then there should be two TOCs anxiously awaiting the "knock on the door".

Why? If two TOCs sell tickets and offer services between the same pair of stations, then each is entitled to make special offers to attract punters. What happened here was the offers got silly, then sillier. Nothing illegal in any of that, nor in putting prices back to their former level. What makes you think otherwise?

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That certainly was a pleasant surprise, TVM, Martyn!

 

Interesting isn't it. So we do have the most expensive fares in Europe. But we also appear to have the cheapest fares in Europe too...not quite the story that the media usually presents.

 

Which (heading way off topic) is my issue with those folks who say they want a simple fare structure, as you know that heavily discounted £12.50 fare isn't going to be the one that survives the cull...

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Why? If two TOCs sell tickets and offer services between the same pair of stations, then each is entitled to make special offers to attract punters. What happened here was the offers got silly, then sillier. Nothing illegal in any of that, nor in putting prices back to their former level. What makes you think otherwise?

The implication of illegality was in your earlier post where you said "Eventually the TOCs did a deal at senior level,".    If two companies, or staff from them, discuss a pricing policy, or arange to move prices, remove discounts, etc.. etc.. then that is highly illegal and the Office of Fair Trading will want to know about it.    There's often a bounty for reporting such things, so it can be worth reporting them if you have evidence. 

 

If, instead, the two companies just removed their special offers without any conversations between the two companies (ie. "did a deal at senior level" means the finance director in company A discussed things with marketing director in company A, and they agreed to alter the pricing in company A),  then that's perfectly legal.

 

- Nigel

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These tales of rival companies undercutting each other reminded me of a situation in the USA when two companies got into a price slashing war over carrying cattle. One company undercut it rival, the other responded in kind, and so it went on until it because completely uneconomical to carry cattle at all. At this point one company gathered all the cattle it could and sent them along to its rival's yards to be carried at a big loss. There is a moral to this, blowed if I can remember what it was!

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In reality all this appears to be about is getting a proper implementation of 91/440 to ensure the clear distinction between infrastructure and train operating costs which it demands.  Now I do, genuinely, say 'all' but it is totally at odds with the idea in many mainland European countries and in some that is much a political matter as anything to do with railways.  But at the end of it all it is about creating a level playing field for open access and that is something the French have been doing their best to 'slow down' for more than a decade.  In Belgium, and I believe also in Italy, the problem is different because much of the railway organisation is actually part of government and many railway staff at HQ etc level are civil servants with some of the weird Belgian bureaucratic nonsense that leads to in the strange 'double country' which is Belgium.

 

Here here Stationmaster!

 

Its amazing how the merest mention of the EU gets people frothing. Contrary to what the Daily Mail might have you believe, and as The Stationmaster describes, this is about separating infrastructure from operations, to allow open access, and especially open access freight. i.e. about the common market in goods across borders.

 

Open access is not the same as franchising!

 

The vast, vast majority of EU legislation is about the common market, because, despite the smears from the right wing press, it is ultimately designed to ensure a level playing field and equalise costs and expenses of trade across borders. There can be no effective free trade on a level playing field when costs of labour, track access, what have you, are vastly different. 

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The implication of illegality was in your earlier post where you said "Eventually the TOCs did a deal at senior level,".    If two companies, or staff from them, discuss a pricing policy, or arange to move prices, remove discounts, etc.. etc.. then that is highly illegal and the Office of Fair Trading will want to know about it.    There's often a bounty for reporting such things, so it can be worth reporting them if you have evidence. 

 

If, instead, the two companies just removed their special offers without any conversations between the two companies (ie. "did a deal at senior level" means the finance director in company A discussed things with marketing director in company A, and they agreed to alter the pricing in company A),  then that's perfectly legal.

 

- Nigel

These are TOCs! All their pricing policies are very visible within the industry, and centrally via ATOC and RSP. Do not confuse the workings of the much-scrutinised railway industry with under-regulated cabals and other rip-offs in the high-street.

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I find your view of BR not only interesting but incredibly inaccurate -.....

 

I'm sorry to disagree with you Mike, but Scouser's description of BR ...."When I think back to BR I remember filthy trains, lousy organisation and rail workers who thought passengers were a nuisance", apart from "organisation" sounds very familiar IMHO.

 

From my own experience, I don't think I encountered one single example of good customer service from any BR rail staff I ever came into contact with or witnessed "in action", other than some friendly and courteous catering trolly staff on ICWC and maybe the odd ticket inspector.

I can clearly remember scruffy and indifferent station staff were commonplace and supervisory or senior staff always gave me the impression that they really didn't want to deal with the public, other than having to bark orders at them occasionally.

 

I fully understand that the disgraceful behaviour of some passengers, in using trains like litter bins and toilets, would be difficult to keep on top of at times; but the standard of cleaning and preparation of the dirty old trains left an awful lot to be desired most of the time.

That may have been down to management's inability to understand and care about what level of service they should have been providing and their failure to ensure the right sort of staff were employed, trained, motivated and supervised to see it delivered.

 

From a passengers point of view, there was definitely an impression of lazy management, lazy and sometimes unsuitable staff and a general air of complacency and indifference towards their "customer's".

 

I've no doubt that "behind the scenes" there would have been countless numbers of hard working and diligent rail staff who did their very best, if not an excellent job, but the poor showing on the front of shop, customer facing end of the business really did expose some serious cultural problems within the organisation.

 

I realise that there are a good number of former BR employees on here that will view my remarks as slightly insulting, or even offensive, but I'm honestly telling it as I saw it at first hand. 

 

Sorry, this way off topic....

 

Ron

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I suppose each generation comes along, its balls drop, and it suddenly sees things it hadn't noticed before and assumes such things were always like that. The BR I remember will no doubt be disputed, but it was affordable even for the poor and flippin' interesting.

 

Since then I've seen several new generation come and go until we are where we are now and railways are an over-rated rip-off form of transport barely adequate for cattle and, as far as I'm concerned, unnafordable and totally irrelavent. I don't know if the UK has a state monopoly on ripping off its citizens at every twist and turn, but many of us doubt the EU is the body to end it.

 

Think I'll go for a lie down now.....

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To be honest I support the EUs stance on this and think its high time the Germans, French etc were taken to task. Not because I necessarily agree with the fundamental principle of privatizing or opening up the railways to competition (both of which do have positive and negative sides) but rather from an aspect of fairness. Basically why should DB - and therefore the German Government be allowed to run, and perhaps more importantly get the resulting profits from UK rail franchisees while simultaneously denying similar activities to happen at home. As it stands DB have the best of both worlds - guaranteed income at home from a captive market plus extra income from abroad which they can use to reinforce their home operations and ultimately cost the German Government less money. Much the same can be said of SNCF who also have significant involvement in a couple of UK franchises.

 

Of course this 'fairness' is not just restricted to railways - EDF energy who bought up a number of English electric companies after privatization are actually 'Electricity de France', the French equivalent of the old CEGB in the UK and consequentially any profits from its UK operations get given to the French Government.

 

Basically I take the view that state organizations should not operate outside their own countries boundaries. Within their own countries a state enterprise can be held accountable via the countries electorate while PLCs have shareholders to provide governance. State companies operating overseas are not accountable to anyone.

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Basically I take the view that state organizations should not operate outside their own countries boundaries. Within their own countries a state enterprise can be held accountable via the countries electorate while PLCs have shareholders to provide governance. State companies operating overseas are not accountable to anyone.

 

DB ceased to be a "state organisation" (in the sense of their earlier incarnation, or like BR was) many years ago.

They are technically a private company and have been for almost 20 years, although still 100% owned by the German government.

Following a couple of major reorganisations, they are set up and operate as a major business; hence the expansion and acquisition of other companies, home and abroad.

In other words they are operating just as a private company would (or should?).

 

The intention has been to privatise in some form, but this has met with political obstacles over the years.

The current plan is for a 49% sell-off, with the government retaining a 51% stake, but this is on hold at the moment due to the economic environment.

 

They have had foreign competition on their home soil, but they bought up the largest competitor, Arriva, a couple of years back.

 

 

.

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