'Hybrid' 2BIL/HAL combinations?

[Re6/6]

As far as I can recall there were at least three combinations of these 'hybrid' units.

 

BIL Driving Motor Brake Third + Tin HAL Driving Trailer Compo

 

Tin HAL DTC + 4SUB (type) DMBT or were they specially made Tin Hal coaches) 

 

BIL DMBT + 'Old' HAL DTC.

 

Please do correct if wrong. 

 

Were there any other 'bomb/crash' damaged replacement combinations such as an 'Old' HAL DMBT + BIL DTC unit?

 

Many thanks.

[Xerces Fobe2]

The Ian Allan Combined Volumes from the 1960's detail which units were reformed and with type of coach.

 

XF

[Oldddudders]

Not according to my 1961/2 Combined Volume. BIL trailers only appear to have been used in BIL units at that stage. The only 1939 HAL that didn't have an equivalent trailer was 2653, which had a Tin version. As you note, the BILs all had original trailers, 1939 HAL or Tin HAL types. It suggests to me that as there were a few gaps in the BIL fleet - e.g. 2014, 2102 at that date, there was a preference for keeping BIL trailers in the BIL fleet, stepping up a HAL trailer where needed.

[Gwiwer]

Bil DMBT + Hal DTCL (e.g. 2069)

Bil DMBT + Tin Hal DTCL (e.g. 2100)

Hal DMBT + Tin Hal DTCL (e.g. 2653)

 

but not that I can recall or trace Hal of any kind with a Bil DTCL

 

I don't recall any Sub vehicles being involved.  Tin Hal 2700 was split up to keep other units in traffic and IIRC there were more "tin" coaches built than units created from them suggesting that a few extra trailers were indeed built to replace wartime losses in the Bil / Hal fleets.  

 

It's 00.55 here and while I have more detailed references than a middle-aged brain I'm not about to get them out and start a complete search right now

[Xerces Fobe2]

Here is some more info on these formations

 

2-BIL

Units 2028/56 have BL Motor coaches and 1939 HAL trailers

Units 2069, 2100 and 2133 have BIL motor coaches and post –war all-steel HAL trailers

 

2-HAL

Unit 2626 has BIL trailer

Unit 2653 has a post-war all steel HAL trailer

 

Source:  Ian Allan Combined Volume circa 1970

 

XF

[talisman56]

As Gwiwer says there were no Hals with Bil DTCs

 

'Hybrid' 2Bils were 2056 and 2088 (Original design Hal trailers from 2646 and 2653); and 2069, 2100 and 2133 ('Tin' Hal war replacements).

 

'Tin' Hal 2700 was formed from another war replacement trailer and 4Sub power car 12664 - this was an accident replacement car and was originally in 4590 (an augmented 3Sub) and became spare when 4590 was withdrawn; when 2700 was disbanded 12664 went to 4282.

[talisman56]

Here is some more info on these formations

 

2-BIL

Units 2028/56 have BL Motor coaches and 1939 HAL trailers

Units 2069, 2100 and 2133 have BIL motor coaches and post –war all-steel HAL trailers

 

2-HAL

Unit 2626 has BIL trailer

Unit 2653 has a post-war all steel HAL trailer

 

Source:  Ian Allan Combined Volume circa 1970

 

XF

 

The highlighted one must have been a stop-gap as most of the Bils and Hals had been withdrawn from revenue-earning service by the end of 1970 and the final few by October 1971.

 

I have no records of any permanent reformations of 2Hal units involving 2Bil trailers. Ian Allan CVs tended to take a snapshot of the status of BR Locos and Rolling Stock at a particular cut-off date and print their books from that - not taking any notice of whether formations were temporary or not. They did not print the actual vehicle numbers for each multiple unit until well into the 1980s - I have a 1977 CV in front of me and only SR DEMU/EMU numbers are listed, and only individual DMMU vehicle numbers - one had to determine which vehicles ran together oneself.

[Re6/6]

Many thanks all.    

[Colin parks]

Hi John,

 

Just a small addition to the above information re. the 'Tin Hal' trailers paired with 2 BIL motor coaches.  In David Brown's excellent book (both volumes equally excellent) 'Southern Electric - A New History'  Volume Two, he states that four trailers were built to dia. 2705 in 1954. These trailers, unlike the 'Tin HAL' units, had gutters at cantrail level, no cab front grab rails and no steps over the buffers.

 

The pairings of three of these trailers has already been mentioned by Talisman56.  The fourth trailer went to unit 2700 in Feb 1955 according to Michael Welch in 'A Southern Electric Album' p. 39.  He goes on to say that when that unit was disbanded in 1968, its trailer went to 2688, thus creating a hybrid pre/postwar 2 HAL.  As Talisman says, this arrangement only lasted a short time as unit 2688 was withdrawn in 1969 (as stated in the David Brown book on p.121).

 

So the BIL/HAL numberings and formations became a bit of a minefield after WWII, with two 2 BILs destroyed at Portsmouth Harbour in one night of bombing - let alone all the accident damage after that.  A bit off-subject, but at least one 2 BIL was withdrawn with a first series motor coach and a second series trailer, as can be seen in Michael H C Baker's book 'A Southern Electric Story' (p.23).

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[talisman56]

There were two Bils with a mixture of 1st series and 2nd series vehicles as 2008 and 2029 swapped trailers in 1951, as a result of the accident at Ford.

 

The 1st series units were slightly longer and had different electrical equipment, including traction motors (Metropolitan-Vickers), as well as differing in interior trim and external details.

 

There was also a fifth war replacement Hal trailer, this went to 2653 to replace its own trailer, which went to 2088.

[Gwiwer]

We seem to have conflicting detail here regarding a number of units.  Not surprisingly since I concur that the formations were a bit of a minefield from quite early in the BILs career due to war losses then occasional accident damage.

 

I recall (without reference to source material) 2008's trailer going into 2024 not 2029.  I don't remember any HALs with a BIL trailer but 2626 and 2666 both carried their unit numbers in non-standard fonts suggesting something was done to them at a place and time when the regular font was unavailable and this may have included an exchange of trailers.  

 

I don't place ultimate faith in the Ian Allan books of the period which were known to be not entirely accurate and based only upon such information as they could extract from someone in the region concerned.  Carriage numbers were not listed in those books during the BILs lifetime.

 

As always I'm happy to stand corrected when reliable source material is cited.

[Colin parks]

More stuff:

 

Oldddudders mentions two units missing from a list in a 1961/2 publication. 2014 was destroyed in 1943 at Brighton and 2102 at Portsmouth Harbour in 1940.  'Southern Electric - A New History' volume 2 by David Brown, lists losses of the 2 BIL fleet in Appendix 2 on p. 233/4.  It is a pretty complex subject.

 

I have looked again through 'A Southern Electric Album' by Michael Welch.  On p.49 there is a picture of a collision involving 2 BIL 2096 and a 4 CIG.  He states that 2096 then ran with a replacement trailer from the very first 2 BIL, the confusingly numbered unit 2010.  This must have been for a very short time as the accident occurred in June 1969 and the unit was withdrawn that same year.

 

David Brown's second volume details 2 BIL/HAL reformations on pages113-123.  It would appear unit 2008 did indeed exchange trailers with  2029.  So, 2029 could be the 2 BIL pictured at Polegate after withdrawal - it lasted in service unitl 1970. 

 

Then there is the question of repainting/full yellow ends - but that's another story.  The period from the late sixties up until about 1972, with the demise of the 4 CORs, was a very interesting time for the Southern Electric modeller.

 

Colin 

[Xerces Fobe2]

The problem is that we are all posting information from various sources at different points in time. A lot of the information will be correct and some maybe erroneous.

 

I am sure that were both long and short term reformations in order to accommodate operational needs when major failures/accidents occured. The only way to move forward is to build up a comprehensive list of all the 2BILs & 2HAL's detailing dates and reformations etc using the all the data sources whilst seeking validation by cross reference. This would not be a easy task however could help form the basis for a future Modern? Locomotivesi Illustrated !

 

Anyone up for the task?

 

XF

[Colin parks]

The problem is that we are all posting information from various sources at different points in time. A lot of the information will be correct and some maybe erroneous. I am sure that were both long and short term reformations in order to accommodate operational needs when major failures/accidents occured. The only way to move forward is to build up a comprehensive list of all the 2BILs & 2HAL's detailing dates and reformations etc using the all the data sources whilst seeking validation by cross reference. This would not be a easy task however could help form the basis for a future Modern? Locomotivesi Illustrated ! Anyone up for the task? XF

Hi XF,

 

The David Brown book mentioned in my previous post does what you want re. 2 BILs.  Mr Brown does a pretty good job on the 2 HALs too!  Given the extensive bibliography listed at the back of said book, it would appear the author has done his research to a very deep level.

 

Mind you, nobody could keep track of all the ad hoc temporary arragements that were sometimes used to keep the trains running.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

[Xerces Fobe2]

Hi XF,

 

The David Brown book mentioned in my previous post does what you want re. 2 BILs.  Mr Brown does a pretty good job on the 2 HALs too!  Given the extensive bibliography listed at the back of said book, it would appear the author has done his research to a very deep level.

 

Mind you, nobody could keep track of all the ad hoc temporary arragements that were sometimes used to keep the trains running.

 

All the best,

 

Colin

Hi Colin,

 

Thanks for this the temporaty arrangements might only last a day or so and may never have been offically recordered

 

This question made me think that if anyome asked about the formations/reformations of the Western Region London Area DMU' s from 1970 -1990 as that would be a lifetimes working given how common it was.changes to be made at very short notice.

 

I think in the end find it is best to find a photo of a prototype(s) you wish to model and forget about the rest !

 

XF

[Oldddudders]

I think in the end find it is best to find a photo of a prototype(s) you wish to model and forget about the rest !

But if you exhibit your layout, make sure you have a copy of the photo with you to ward-off the sneering know-all!

[Re6/6]

But if you exhibit your layout, make sure you have a copy of the photo with you to ward-off the sneering know-all!

So true Ian, so true!

 

We have a few prepared for Balcombe....!

 

We've fended off one or two 'know-alls' before with the old Matford...."they never came to Exeter"......"oh yes they did"......shoves photo under nose!

 

It sometimes works the other way round, you know. I've been trying to persuade CK to get a (LNER) K4 2-6-0 I think it was, for Callow Lane. One did venture well off it's beaten track once in the 60s all the way to Bristol with a goods! All I'm getting is  'negative waves'!

[Gwiwer]

"You can't run a 2Bil through the Severn Tunnel - they don't have end gangways".

"Yes I can and they did go through - on their way to the South Wales scrapyards "

 

[Oldddudders]

"You can't run a 2Bil through the Severn Tunnel - they don't have end gangways".

 

"Yes I can and they did go through - on their way to the South Wales scrapyards "

 

Can't argue with that, Rick! But of course in the service life of the 2-BIL single-bore tunnels were never an issue. I believe it was in the mid-80s that a guard from Thanet raised the issue of evacuation from such trains in single-bore tunnels, stopping HAP stock running via Folkestone in passenger service. The individual concerned, ISTR, had been a driver and member of Sectional Council B, when he was found guilty of some sort of off-track misdemeanour (expenses sounds likely) and reduced in grade to guard. He vowed to disrupt whatever and whenever - and this was his master-stroke. As a result, the 365 stock that ran on the SE for some years could only ever serve the Canterbury line, not via the Coast.

[Gwiwer]

That totally accords with my memory of the issue insofar as Shakespeare and Archcilffe Tunnels are concerned.  The Elfin Safety mob generally have also taken issue with end-door evacuations in more recent years starting IIRC with the cutting of doorways into some late-surviving LNER Merseyside stock.

 

I'm not sure Bil and Hal stock was passed for running under the cliffs at Dover anyway and for other reasons but I'm happy to be corrected on that.

[talisman56]

More stuff:

 

Oldddudders mentions two units missing from a list in a 1961/2 publication. 2014 was destroyed in 1943 at Brighton and 2102 at Portsmouth Harbour in 1940.  'Southern Electric - A New History' volume 2 by David Brown, lists losses of the 2 BIL fleet in Appendix 2 on p. 233/4.  It is a pretty complex subject.

 

I have looked again through 'A Southern Electric Album' by Michael Welch.  On p.49 there is a picture of a collision involving 2 BIL 2096 and a 4 CIG.  He states that 2096 then ran with a replacement trailer from the very first 2 BIL, the confusingly numbered unit 2010.  This must have been for a very short time as the accident occurred in June 1969 and the unit was withdrawn that same year.

 

David Brown's second volume details 2 BIL/HAL reformations on pages113-123.  It would appear unit 2008 did indeed exchange trailers with  2029.  So, 2029 could be the 2 BIL pictured at Polegate after withdrawal - it lasted in service unitl 1970. 

 

Then there is the question of repainting/full yellow ends - but that's another story.  The period from the late sixties up until about 1972, with the demise of the 4 CORs, was a very interesting time for the Southern Electric modeller.

 

Colin 

 

I have the Michael Welch book Colin mentions above - the stock on display on the picture on p49 is very interesting, apart from the major subjects, Blue/Grey liveried 4BIG 7033 and Green liveried 2BIL 2096, there are other Green liveried 2BILs; Blue liveried 4Cors and a BR 2HAP and 4VEP; a Green SYP 4 CIG and a 5Bel set still in Pullman Umber/Cream. Also visible is a SR design power car in Green livery, probably from a 2HAP, not to mention the variety of NPCS stock in maroon and blue in the freight yard on the opposite side of the main line.

 

All in all, a very good demonstration of why I'm trying to put this in model form...

[Xerces Fobe2]

The Elfin Safety mob generally have also taken issue with end-door evacuations in more recent years starting IIRC with the cutting of doorways into some late-surviving LNER Merseyside stock.

 

t.

 

Surely an Gremlin not an Elfin LMS Merseyside maybe?

 

XF

[robertcwp]

I posted this image in another thread but it is also relevant here - a 2 Hal with an ex-Bil DTC:

 

2-HAL_2626_Wdon_7-7-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

2700 is the second unit in this formation and the third is a Bil with a 'tin' Hal DTC:

2-HAL_2636_DurnRd_2-7-67 by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The DTC from 2700 ended up in a 'tin' Hal as shown here - note the cantrail gutter:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12a_kingmoor_klickr/6284441506/

[Re6/6]

Thanks for those Robert.

 

They were just what I was looking for.

[Reading General]

fascinating thread. Just to put the cat amongst the pidgeons, wasn't there at least one HAL running with a LAV coach ...or was it the other way round?