Improving the Hornby APT (1980s version)

[Horsetan]

This is a brilluant thread but Murphy's law strikes again.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128566-oo-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/

I'm still waiting for the all-etched one so, like a Murphy's, I'm not bitter.

[RedDwarfIV]

This is a brilluant thread but Murphy's law strikes again.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128566-oo-gauge-crowdunded-apt-p-warley-announcement/

14 car set, £1000? I could do that for £320. Pretty sure there's still room for a low-quality budget version.

 

And that site doesn't even seem to have pictures of the whole train (I'm not even convinced those are pictures of OO gauge APTs rather than the full size thing). Maybe they're legit but that would concern me if I were thinking of buying from them. (Edit: Seeing as both the OO gauge and N gauge pages show the same images, they're definitely of the real thing.)

 

The thread will go on!

 

(Edit: Please disregard my questioning DJM's legitimacy. It was unnecessary and based on incorrect assumptions.)

 

 

(Speaking of, I'm still working on mine. Got 1 complete buffet car, a second almost complete buffet car, two almost complete coaches that could be 1st, 2nd or unclassified depending on what insert I put in them, half a coach, a load of painted coach bodies and three sets of unpainted coach bodies. Certainly enough for at least one rake when its done.)

Edited December 6, 2017 by RedDwarfIV

[FPH 603]

They seem really expensive too... And I would like to see how this turns out.

[Titan]

14 car set, £1000? I could do that for £320. Pretty sure there's still room for a low-quality budget version.

 

And that site doesn't even seem to have pictures of the whole train (I'm not even convinced those are pictures of OO gauge APTs rather than the full size thing). Maybe they're legit but that would concern me if I were thinking of buying from them. (Edit: Seeing as both the OO gauge and N gauge pages show the same images, they're definitely of the real thing.)

 

 

I would advise that you think things through a little better before making posts like this. This has only just been announced, what do you expect, Do all the scanning, cad work, research, test moulds and have an engineering prototype ready to photograph in under two weeks?

 

And you are querying whether DJM is legit? A company that has an excellent track record of successfully delivering extremely high quality crowdfunded models already?

 

You make it look like you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[RedDwarfIV]

I would advise that you think things through a little better before making posts like this. This has only just been announced, what do you expect, Do all the scanning, cad work, research, test moulds and have an engineering prototype ready to photograph in under two weeks?

 

And you are querying whether DJM is legit? A company that has an excellent track record of successfully delivering extremely high quality crowdfunded models already?

 

You make it look like you don't have a clue what you are talking about.

You're absolutely right, I didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I made that post. Reading the linked thread, it looks like a crowdfunding project. Makes everything else make sense. I was basically writing the post as my first reactions, and they weren't particularly good ones.

 

Added a disclaimer to my above post.

Edited December 6, 2017 by RedDwarfIV

[royaloak]

You're absolutely right, I didn't have a clue what I was talking about when I made that post. Reading the linked thread, it looks like a crowdfunding project. Makes everything else make sense. I was basically writing the post as my first reactions, and they weren't particularly good ones.

 

Added a disclaimer to my above post.

Probably worth deleting the whole post because sticking a disclaimer on a post which is borderline defamatory simply wont cut it, I did read your other post at 02:00 this morning but deleted my reply as I didnt want to be banned.

 

You could do a 14 coach APT for £320, dont make me laugh, you obviously have no idea about the development and manufacturing costs involved.

 

Can you please explain how they could have pictures of the model on the website when they havent even done the design work or engineering prototypes that is what the crowdfunding is for.

 

Do you actually know how crowdfunding or model design and production works?

Edited December 6, 2017 by royaloak

[RedDwarfIV]

Probably worth deleting the whole post because sticking a disclaimer on a post which is borderline defamatory simply wont cut it, I did read your other post at 02:00 this morning but deleted my reply as I didnt want to be banned.

 

You could do a 14 coach APT for £320, dont make me laugh, you obviously have no idea about the development and manufacturing costs involved.

I didn't delete it because that would imply I wanted to hide my wrongdoing. I accept that I said something incorrect, but what happens if someone makes the same assumption I did? Either they post about it and this all happens again or they don't post about it and they'll go away with the wrong impression. If I did something worth banning me from the forum over, I'll accept responsibility for that.

 

As for £320, I'm already doing it. Note the 'budget' part of the immediate next sentence. If you're willing to lose some detail, you can absolutely sell a 14 car APT for that much. (Being the person making it, it cost even less.) Not mass-production, mind you.

Edited December 6, 2017 by RedDwarfIV

[Titan]

As for £320, I'm already doing it. Note the 'budget' part of the immediate next sentence. If you're willing to lose some detail, you can absolutely sell a 14 car APT for that much. (Being the person making it, it cost even less.) Not mass-production, mind you.

 

If you are just talking cost of materials I am sure that the DJM version would be well under £320. However, back to the real world...

[letterspider]

Probably worth deleting the whole post because sticking a disclaimer on a post which is borderline defamatory simply wont cut it, I did read your other post at 02:00 this morning but deleted my reply as I didnt want to be banned.

 

You could do a 14 coach APT for £320, dont make me laugh, you obviously have no idea about the development and manufacturing costs involved.

 

Can you please explain how they could have pictures of the model on the website when they havent even done the design work or engineering prototypes that is what the crowdfunding is for.

 

Do you actually know how crowdfunding or model design and production works?

 

APT

 

Angry

People

Time

[RedDwarfIV]

If you are just talking cost of materials I am sure that the DJM version would be well under £320. However, back to the real world...

It's also probably worth noting that DJM are probably planning on building entire new sets, yes? They would have to be to be making N-gauge ones as well. I was including the £80-£100 cost of an existing APT set from eBay in my calculation.

 

A 1KG roll of ABS fillament costs £12. For each 14 car rake, it takes about one roll and I would be making 10 intermediate coaches. So that's £1.20 per coach in materials. Electricity cost is negligible. A 236ml pot of grey paint was £6, a 500ml pot of RAF blue grey paint was £9, enamel paints for the 1st and buffet stripes £6 altogether. The paints last for ages so cost there is also negligible. An A4 sheet of clear acetate sheet for the windows is £2. Painting parts takes a while, assembling each coach is quick.

 

These are not expensive for me to make. Most of it is time spent working on it, plus however much people are willing to pay for it. So let's run that through again, using conservative estimates. £100 for a pre-owned 5-car APT. £12 + £6 + £9 + £6 +£2 = £35. £135 materials. £185 to cover labour and profit. £320.

 

If you're a company that has to cover overhead costs, £1000 makes sense. I'm not, so I don't. I'm a guy who decided to make some APT carriages for himself, posted images of the progress on the internet, then got an offer from someone to make more for them (for £220, which is where that number comes from) that made me think about how I could do it for other people too.

[JDW]

I admire your attempts to produce some centre cars yourself, I wouldn't know where to start with 3D printing.  Having a go at DJM was a bit silly, as others have said, and as you say there's a huge difference between your basic shells and the proposed DJM model, and trying to compare the two is like chalk and cheese.  Add in the cost of your printer, time spent designing and prototyping, and the time and cost of adding in all the extra features and I'd suggest your £185 in labour is a bit cheap - certainly if it were me I'd spend time smoothing surface before painting for a better finish and neater stripes, which would take a while per coach.  Your ten coaches at £1.20 each is a bit out too - if you're starting with a Hornby set, you already have 4 coaches and a power car, which means you need to produce another eight plus one more power car, not ten, for a 14 car set - 2 x 7 car half sets...

[RedDwarfIV]

I admire your attempts to produce some centre cars yourself, I wouldn't know where to start with 3D printing.  Having a go at DJM was a bit silly, as others have said, and as you say there's a huge difference between your basic shells and the proposed DJM model, and trying to compare the two is like chalk and cheese.  Add in the cost of your printer, time spent designing and prototyping, and the time and cost of adding in all the extra features and I'd suggest your £185 in labour is a bit cheap - certainly if it were me I'd spend time smoothing surface before painting for a better finish and neater stripes, which would take a while per coach.  Your ten coaches at £1.20 each is a bit out too - if you're starting with a Hornby set, you already have 4 coaches and a power car, which means you need to produce another eight plus one more power car, not ten, for a 14 car set - 2 x 7 car half sets...

If I'd bought the 3D printer for the sole purpose of making a business of it, then I'd have included it. But I bought it back when I was just interested in making things for myself. I paid that off with my real job some time ago.

 

Time spent designing and prototyping could also be written off as something I would have done whether I started a business or not, as I mentioned the original idea was just to print off coaches for myself.

 

ABS plastic can be smoothed using acetone and sanding. Both would be rather complicated as I don't want to melt/sand off things like the window rims. Would also significantly increase production time.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the second power car. None on sale on eBay at the moment, but looking at my purchase history I got one for £40 including postage. H'mm. Maybe I should design and print off dummy power cars.

[JDW]

If I'd bought the 3D printer for the sole purpose of making a business of it, then I'd have included it. But I bought it back when I was just interested in making things for myself. I paid that off with my real job some time ago.

 

Time spent designing and prototyping could also be written off as something I would have done whether I started a business or not, as I mentioned the original idea was just to print off coaches for myself.

 

ABS plastic can be smoothed using acetone and sanding. Both would be rather complicated as I don't want to melt/sand off things like the window rims. Would also significantly increase production time.

 

Thanks for reminding me about the second power car. None on sale on eBay at the moment, but looking at my purchase history I got one for £40 including postage. H'mm. Maybe I should design and print off dummy power cars.

 

You're welcome.  And certainly, whether you intended to sell them or not, if there are people out there interested in buying and you have the time/motivation to produce them (or to sell the artwork for others to print for themselves) then it's a handy and welcome small profit to put back into your modelling budget!

[Colin_McLeod]

As for £320, I'm already doing it. Note the 'budget' part of the immediate next sentence. If you're willing to lose some detail, you can absolutely sell a 14 car APT for that much. (Being the person making it, it cost even less.) Not mass-production, mind you.

If you would seriously do a 14 car set for £320 then I would genuinely like to get a price from you for a 10 car set ready to run.

Colin

 

PS. PM sent.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[FPH 603]

After looking at the APT configurations page, I want to make the APT-S (Advanced Passenger Train - Squadron). I might attempt to do something on Sketchup.

 

http://www.apt-p.com/APTConfigurations.htm

[Colin_McLeod]

As for £320, I'm already doing it. Note the 'budget' part of the immediate next sentence. If you're willing to lose some detail, you can absolutely sell a 14 car APT for that much. (Being the person making it, it cost even less.) Not mass-production, mind you.

If you would seriously do a 14 car set for £320 then I would genuinely like to get a price from you for a 10 car set ready to run.

Colin

PS. PM sent.

BUMP

No response to date. Looks like I will have to go for the DTOS/DJM model instead.

 

 

 

 

.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Colin_McLeod

[FPH 603]

I find the DJ Models one appears to be more of a cramfest than anything. Chances are either half of the wanted features will be removed in the design of production processes, or they'll get ridiculously expensive. They already are pricey, but I have a feeling that the prices are going to jump up soon.

[7APT7]

Hi All,

 

What Great News! Not been on here for a while, but love to come on this thread whenever I'm passing...!

All good reading and the APT always divides opinions in one way or another... normally on what its true colours etc., I do hope DJM get that right and I'm sure they will.

 

I must admit, when I herd that DJM were doing the APT-P, I was so over the top with excitement I have to say! But when I saw the price, I was like wt-Flip man!, is that a barcode or a price tag haha. It was at this point in the thread I was for the £320 from RedDwarfIV seems the better option by far, and still would!

 

The APT-P was some much of my childhood memories that I always wanted one at some point, but I must admit I was more surprised to read that only the 14-Car Sets & 10-Car Sets have the two Buffet Cars, one each side of the two Power-Cars in the centre, both of which are Black Fronted. I wanted a Yellow Fronted one to, which means I need a 7-Car or the 6-Car Set..., for the Yellow Fronted, those are my options.

 

I just wish they could sell some of the coaches individually on top of the Rakes that they have announced below, the Buffet Cars more so, so at least we can buy maybe a starter set of the 5, 6 or 7 Car Sets with the option to purchase a Buffet Car would be nice. Its a shame there is not a Buffet Car with all the other Units even if its just one Buffet Car. It just gets pricey when you have to go to the 10 & 14 Car sets for a Buffet Car, is that just a sales ploy to sell the more expensive APT-Ps, we all want what the formations ran in and I get that totally.

 

I feel by putting the Buffet Cars on the 14 and 10 Car Sets, that these are the ones we all need to purchase, but unless you are in a Club that you can run those lengths on, that's all well and good but most of our home layouts may still be to small to run a 10 Car, not to mention the 14 Car Set, as good as that may sound.

 

If money was no object then all would be ordered, sadly I'm still waiting for the Lotto to come up. Sooner rather than later

I believe a 25% Deposit payable in May 2018 and then Month instalments so I was told when I emailed for information, I'm not sure how long that term would be over, I'm taking it as 12 months, 24 Months just means I can order 3 Sets and at least I get  Buffet Cars and Yellow Fronted to swop around, and I get to run at least Two 12-Car Sets with One Yellow and One Black Fronted.

 

The Only Extra Coaches on the 6-Car & 7-Car are...from what I can see is:-

6-Car Yellow (Set 0001) the extra car is the TS Trailer second, side car number, #48201

7-Car Yellow (Set 0004) extra cars are the TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48203 & Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49002

from what I can make out.

 

I've included all DJM Types available in OO & N, which again is great to see both gauges are being modelled  smiles all round for that.

 

6-Car Black (Set 0001) £699.95

#370001 + 370005, 6 car Full Yellow Front End Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370001, side car number, #48101

TS Trailer second, side car number, #48201

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48601

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49001

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48605

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370005, side car number, #48105

 

7-Car Black (Set 0004) £749.95

#370004 + 370002, 7 Car Full Yellow Front End Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370004, side car number, #48104

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48604

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49004

Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49002

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48602

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48202

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370002, side car number, #48102

 

10-Car Black (Set 0006) £895.95

#370006 + 370003, 10 Car Black Front Eindow Surround Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370006, side car number, #48106

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48206

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48406

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48606

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49006

Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49003 Note below

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48603

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48403

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48203

DTS Driving Trailer Second, side car number, #48103

(May be a Mistake as that's what the Documentation said, both None Powered/Powered, I'm guessing due to the length it may be two Power Cars and not one of each, Need to question that, unless anyone else knows which it will be)

 

14-Car Black (Set 0007) £995.95

#370005 + 370002, 14 Car Black Front Window Surround Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370005, side car number, #48105

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48205

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48405

TU Trailer Unclassified, side car number, #48305

TF Trailer First, side car number, #48505

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48605

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49005

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49002

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48602

TF Trailer First, side car number, #48502

TU Trailer Unclassified, side car number, #48302

TRSB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48402

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48202

DTS Driving Trailer Second, side car number, #48102

 

Thank You to DJM for a company to take on this Iconic Train.

 

Last Question this leaves me with is..., what do I do with my 32 Coaches (Off Centre) and 12 Mixed Yellow & Black Fronted Coaches that I had ready for cut to make one coach, I just couldn't come to terms with Cutting them up!   My plan was to have them all cut up and numbered to what was out originally of each APT-P Running.

That doesn't include the 4 Hornby Large Box Set and 3 Hornby Small Box Sets., I guess I could make up a good scamp yard of the real thing being smashed to pieces on a exhibition layout! Brings tears to my eyes thinking of it lol    

 

Thanks to all, for the interesting views!

Jamie

Edited December 31, 2017 by 7APT7

[7APT7]

Hi all...

 

I've included all DJM Types available in OO & N, which again is great to see both gauges are being modelled  smiles all round for that.

 

6-Car Black (Set 0001) £699.95

#370001 + 370005, 6 car Full Yellow Front End Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370001, side car number, #48101

TS Trailer second, side car number, #48201

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48601

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49001

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48605

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370005, side car number, #48105

 

5-Car Black (Set 0002) £649.95

#370006 + 370007, 5 car with Black Front Window Surround Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370006, side car number, #48106

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48606

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49006

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48607

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370007, side car number, #48107

 

7-Car Black (Set 0003) £749.95

#370006 + 370003 7 car Black Front Window Surround

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370006, side car number, #48106

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48606

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49006

Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49003

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48603

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48203

DTS Driving Trailer Second, side car number, #48103

 

7-Car Black (Set 0004) £749.95

#370004 + 370002, 7 Car Full Yellow Front End Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370004, side car number, #48104

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48604

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49004

Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49002

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48602

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48202

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370002, side car number, #48102

 

10-Car Black (Set 0006) £895.95

#370006 + 370003, 10 Car Black Front Eindow Surround Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370006, side car number, #48106

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48206

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48406

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48606

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49006

Motor Non Driving (non powered), side car number, #49003 Note below

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48603

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48403

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48203

DTS Driving Trailer Second, side car number, #48103

(May be a Mistake as that's what the Documentation said, both None Powered/Powered, I'm guessing due to the length it may be two Power Cars and not one of each, Need to question that, unless anyone else knows which it will be)

 

14-Car Black (Set 0007) £995.95

#370005 + 370002, 14 Car Black Front Window Surround Comprising

DTS Driving Trailer Second 370005, side car number, #48105

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48205

TSRB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48405

TU Trailer Unclassified, side car number, #48305

TF Trailer First, side car number, #48505

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48605

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49005

Motor Driving (powered), side car number, #49002

TBF Trailer Brake First, side car number, #48602

TF Trailer First, side car number, #48502

TU Trailer Unclassified, side car number, #48302

TRSB Trailer Second Restaurant / Buffet, side car number, #48402

TS Trailer Second, side car number, #48202

DTS Driving Trailer Second, side car number, #48102

 

Thank You to DJM for a company to take on this Iconic Train.

 

Regards

Jamie

[Colin_McLeod]

Jamie I think your last two posts really belong in the DJM thread where DJM and Durham Trains could see them and perhaps take note of the valid points you have made.

 

Colin

[Horsetan]

....Last Question this leaves me with is..., what do I do with my 32 Coaches (Off Centre) and 12 Mixed Yellow & Black Fronted Coaches that I had ready for cut to make one coach, I just couldn't come to terms with Cutting them up!   My plan was to have them all cut up and numbered to what was out originally of each APT-P Running.

That doesn't include the 4 Hornby Large Box Set and 3 Hornby Small Box Sets., I guess I could make up a good scamp yard of the real thing being smashed to pieces on a exhibition layout! Brings tears to my eyes thinking of it lol    

Given the silly prices being achieved there, why not eBay?

[Titan]

Given the silly prices being achieved there, why not eBay?

 

Complete trains (less pantograph) still selling for under fifty quid?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-APT-set-5-cars-/173044974709?hash=item284a48c475%3Ag%3A9K0AAOSwXCBaPBZh&nma=true&si=XkVuIYa4V0td9iYIXTnj6nUIMEQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Legend]

Complete trains (less pantograph) still selling for under fifty quid?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-APT-set-5-cars-/173044974709?hash=item284a48c475%3Ag%3A9K0AAOSwXCBaPBZh&nma=true&si=XkVuIYa4V0td9iYIXTnj6nUIMEQ%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

By the time it comes to the end of bidding they sell at £120-£155 .

 

I’ve always fancied an APT . The new crowdfunded one is just too expensive for something that will see only occasional use. So I bid on an APT and won it. As I like collecting things Hornby it fits in well. As mine has the black cab windows it’s about 35 to 36 years old . It’s taken me that long to get one!

[FPH 603]

The Hornby one wins again! I agree that the Hornby APT's a nice model to have, and personally I'd chose that over the DJ Models one any day. There seem to so many gimmicks in it, and who's got layouts long enough to operate a 14 car train? Not many people, I bet half these models will end up in display cabinets and shelves - MONEY WASTED ON GIMMICKS WHEN ITS NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING BUT SIT IN THERE!

[Legend]

Well the DJ one has yet to appear and I’m sure will be a stunner if it arrives. I’m not that convinced that there are that many people who can run and afford a full 14 car train . It’s not so much the extras with this train but the fact that it is being offered in a bewildering number of variants . I just decided to bite the bullet and get a Hornby one now, and I’m glad I did. It’s a great runner and in good condition, complete with pantograph, which is the usual omission.