Older Inspirational Layouts

[Pacific231G]

The main station building is alongside the Up Relief (Platform 4) - and includes my occasional weekend 'office'!

I was thinking that if the station was modelled to be viewed from the south then platform 3 could be at the front of the layout so the fast lines would be as it were behind the viewer's head . Only the relief lines and the Wallingford bay  and its exchange sidings would then actually be modelled. If the viewpoint was from the north with the main station building at the front you'd presumably have to include the fast lines though not necessarily operational (so you wouldn't need fiddle yards long enough for an HST or the Cornish Riviera Express) and as you say the station building and the trees could then act as scenic breaks to frame the modelled section.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

JohnArcher

 

"The trouble" I was referring to is that designing for operation, within realistic space constraints, seems to be a neglected, if not forgotten, art. And, I think that part of the reason it has become neglected, is that photo/dimensional accuracy is frequently emphasised above all else.

 

Which is not at all the same as saying that "operation is more important than appearance" or that people should be forced to pursue their hobby in a way that they don't prefer - both of which you appear to accuse me of saying, when I don't.

 

I'm more than happy to exchange perspectives, and I have a suspicion that we may actually agree with one another on a lot of this, but please don't ascribe to me views that I haven't expounded, and, as it happens, don't hold.

 

Kevin

[johnarcher]

Hello Kevin

 

I didn't intend to accuse you of that, or anything. Sorry if it seemed so.,

It was just that the word 'trouble' seemed an odd choice. If more people are designing for visual accuracy then that is presumably what they prefer.

It would be a 'trouble' if that approach were forgotten - as it wouldn't then be available to those who might prefer it, but maybe not if it's just neglected (ie less common) due to more people choosing to do things differently.

 

I don't really see how it can be a forgotten art (even if not so dominant as it once was) - anyone can look at , and admire, Buckingham , for instance.

 

As you say everyone is free to follow their different preferences, and looking at discussions here and elsewhere when people are planning layouts there seems to be at least as much talk about operational possibilities as anything else.

Edited September 6, 2015 by johnarcher

[Nearholmer]

John

 

No worries - and it looks as if my suspicion that we agreed was well-founded.

 

I really do think that the art is neglected, and perhaps partly forgotten, though, a theory which can be tested by looking at the balance of content magazines, and even on this forum. Here, for instance, I notice that a thread about "realism" is really about that facet of realism perceptible in photos.

 

I think that there is a strong possibility that a newcomer could get the impression that this hobby is solely about photo/dimensional accuracy, which, of course, it really isn't.

 

Kevin

[RJS1977]

As regards the supposed "demise" of the operationally intensive layout with lots of tracks, as opposed to the "scenically nice" layouts it must be borne in mind of course that this is based on what one sees in magazines and at exhibitions and does not necessarily always reflect the "layouts that never leave home".

 

A friend of mine has a model of Cannon Street in his loft. From CS the main lines do a 180 and pass through a junction station, then do another 180 to pass through the other side of the station before diving below/behind Cannon Street to storage loops and a reversing loop. In a departure from prototype, two lines run through Cannon Street to another reversing loop, creating a continuous run (though never operated as such). Throw in two MPDs and some low level goods lines and you have a very intensive layout, but one which has never featured in a magazine nor has been (or ever will be) exhibited.

 

Personally I think Buckingham in particular managed to capture the best of both worlds, especially once the branch line was brought out into the open.

[luckymucklebackit]

JohnArcher

 

"The trouble" I was referring to is that designing for operation, within realistic space constraints, seems to be a neglected, if not forgotten, art. And, I think that part of the reason it has become neglected, is that photo/dimensional accuracy is frequently emphasised above all else.

 

Which is not at all the same as saying that "operation is more important than appearance" or that people should be forced to pursue their hobby in a way that they don't prefer - both of which you appear to accuse me of saying, when I don't.

 

I'm more than happy to exchange perspectives, and I have a suspicion that we may actually agree with one another on a lot of this, but please don't ascribe to me views that I haven't expounded, and, as it happens, don't hold.

 

Kevin

 

I would like to think that on my layout, the art of operation is still alive and kicking!

 

Jim

[Talltim]

I have found the historical research angle absolutely fascinating.  Comparing the old articles and photographs of Craigshire with what actually has survived has been a real eye opener.  For instance, some small parts of the very first layout 65 years ago survive on Dundreich.  I presume that partly because of the shortage of materials in the 1950's, and possibly financial constraints, both Denny and Hancock were almost forced down the road of re-cycling items.

Possibly also, Hancock liked the bits he kept and wanted to keep them

[RJS1977]

Possibly also, Hancock liked the bits he kept and wanted to keep them

 

I also remember one of PDH's last articles on the THLR made mention of the fact that having lived through the wartime shortages it always horrified him to see people throwing things away that were suitable for further use.

[C&WR]

Well there are bridges at Cholsey, but it would take a degree of willing suspension of disbelief to bring "Silly Bridge" & the Conker Bridge close enough for scenic breaks...

[BG John]

Cholsey would have been a fair bit shorter, and only double track, in the early 19th century, and would be easier to compress when a typical express train would have consisted of a 2-2-2 and 4 or 6 wheel coaches. If I get everything else I want to model done, and live long enough, it's the period I'd choose for a big main line layout!

[5050]

I also remember one of PDH's last articles on the THLR made mention of the fact that having lived through the wartime shortages it always horrified him to see people throwing things away that were suitable for further use.

I rarely throw anything away.

 

Ask Mrs 5050.............................

[Nearholmer]

Been reading Volume 2 of "Railway Modeller", dating from 1951, in odd moments over the past few days, and one of the "gems" is CJF's first "Layouts for Modellers", the very start of what gave rise to all those marvellous booklets from Peco, the excellent PSL book, and much more besides. In short, the start of a career in inspirational layout design.

 

In the first paragraph of the little article, he says, in effect, that lots of people seem to find designing layouts hard work, but that he can't understand why, because he loves it! Very, very evident, in retrospect.

 

That first design is for, you've guessed it, a modest single track terminus, with two platforms, running into a fiddle-yard, and a very good, worth building today, plan it is.

 

His designs for larger layouts, some of which appear in the next few issues, were rather "off beam" at that stage, bordering on the completely impractical, so it looks as if he took a while to "get his hand in".

 

Kevin

[Portchullin Tatty]

For me it was Benfieldside. Wonderfully atmospheric.

 

Almost four years later, I spot your post............  Sorry for that, but to make up for it, here are a couple of pictures:

 

 

 

 

You will find more where these came from here.

[The Johnster]

Probably the biggest influence on me, and it wasn't when I was all that young and impressionable, was Chris Pendleton's North Shields.  Before that I would never have considered anything with 2 completely separate and unconnected bits of railway, as in the high and low levels on this, would be worth serious consideration; I was of the view that it was cheating, and that you should be able to at least shunt between them; North Shields removed the blinkers.  Those photos from the yard viewpoint with the high level signals silhouetted against a grey sky...

 

I was particularly struck by his description in a magazine article of the 'ebb and flow of the electrics above'; the passenger part, the main line, being a mere background to the comings and goings down in the yard where the real action was going on.  He populated it with imaginary characters and individuals that were recognisable to me as real railwaymen, and the operations all meant something in railway terms; no shunting movements for the hell of it, it was a replication of real railway work, hard, unrelenting, cold, wet, and dirty.  And he ran pacifics with restaurant car expresses through that yard (with the facing turnouts spiked and clipped, of course).  Brilliant.

 

Another thing that impressed was the idea of having a street of seedy rundown buildings down behind the railway, a very common prototypical arrangement but the conventional wisdom was that, on a model, you had to have the backdrop a bit higher than the railway to enhance the perspective.  North Shields took your sightlines over the roofs, there were a few more on a backscene, and you were seduced into believing that you were gazing northwards across miles of urban North Tyneside on a gloomy day.  Very effective...

 

Until starting on my current South Wales blt, only recently, I was still designing 2 level Cardiff docks layouts that were visibly influenced by North Shields.  2 levels are a good way to capitalise on limited space.  I never saw it in the flesh, having gone to one of the Westminster Hall shows for that purpose and found I was unable to get anywhere near the damned thing!

Edited December 22, 2016 by The Johnster

[ianblenk]

Hi Guys,

 

Just found this fascinating thread, back in 1999 I was putting together my first web site in time for the millenium, (Using Publisher!!). One of the things I did was list my 'Top Ten' models, here are some that appeared on that list, in no particular order here they are

• North Shields, I saw this at the MRJ exhibition, or at least some of it due to the vast crowd. I saw it again at Newcastle in 1992, magnificent in all respects.
• Benfieldside, I think this was John Henry's zenith
• High Dyke, Again seen at Newcastle in 1987, I wish I'd had my ABC with me!
• Eastbourne, I of course never saw this in the flesh, but I think it was the first time I had seen an attempt at an actual location.
• Yatton Junction, seen at York in 1972(?)
• North Cornwall Minerals, I used to follow this and other Rice writings in Model Railways, this changed my whole approach to modelling
• Carron Road, atmospheric and in a 'doable' space.
• Ashleigh, I helped Ian Futers operate this at the 1971 Newcastle Show, It showed me that a viable layout could be built in a small bedroom, the flood gates opened!

There were others, but the above are the main ones.

As an aside, being in the Merchant Navy, It was difficult to get to shows on a regular basis, but in the late 70's early 80's I used to have Model Railways mag sent to me, being pre MRJ, this was truly cutting edge, how I enjoyed the writings of Iain Rice et al. The real road to Damascus for me was Iain Rice  ' An approach to Finescale Modelling' the principles of which I still try to follow. What a debt of thanks we owe these wonderful modellers and what great memories they have given us. I am so pleased that several of the builders of the above layouts are still active and still continue to inspire.

 

There are many excellent models on around at present, but I think we have come to expect excellence and maybe are a bit blasé these days.

 

Cheers Guys!

Edited July 18, 2017 by ianblenk

[The Johnster]

Iain Rice was a big influence on me as well, and many a small layout around today owes a lot to him.  There was a time when a layout 2 or 3 feet long in the scenic section with not much actually there would have been considered a poor use of limited space; you could get a B set in a platform and an auto in a bay, and there wasn't any point in modelling some obscure siding where nothing much ever happened, was there?

 

Rice's various light railways and period pieces, superbly presented with proper cool lighting and proscenium arches at a height where the observer was at ground level or close to it, were a new approach altogether, and a breath of fresh air.  The low viewpoint made the tiny space look bigger, and put you on the ground watching the action up close  They initially looked like the preserve of skilled scale modellers with vast reserves of erudition about the likes of the Pentewan Railway and such, but it wasn't long before people realised that they wee perfectly suited to small rtr locos like the new Mainline J72, and to modern image as well.  Sheep Lane and Vopak are their modern descendants. 

 

Rice has had an influence on Cwmdimbath, though it is subtle and not immediately obvious. The pathological aversion to dead straight track and general air of decay are down to him, as is my desire to view things from a trackside level.  I am so bothered by the bird's eye view that I have to convince myself I am watching trains from the mountainside on the other side of the valley.

 

I think there are 3 basic ways to build a minimum space layout in 4mm; the mpd/tmd, the american shunting puzzle, and Iain Rice.  I don't count inglenook as this is not really a layout, it's a mental exercise, and none the worse for that...  I am not interested in the engine shed layout, as there is not enough operation in it to satisfy me and I can't help thinking of them as train spotters' wet dreams.  It is a way to go if you want big engines in small spaces, but most real sheds were/are quite large affairs, and the single road tmd beloved of modern image modellers is largely a fantasy;  a good engine shed layout needs a bit of room and a main running line beside it.  The american shunting puzzle is a better idea, with the very railway-like concept of delivering vehicles to customers and picking them up loaded or empty later in the day, and it translates well to British prototypes, but many are too small, especially the 0 guarge ones, track layouts unfeasibly difficult to shunt, loco and one wagon at a time in the headshunt to avoid blocking yourself in, 3 or 4 locos each with one wagon when the reality would be one once or twice a week; it just looks a bit too compressed sometimes, although it is very suited to a dense urban or heavy industrial environment.  But little half a coach length stations with booking offices approached down steps from a backscene high wall and no proper separation of BR and industrial locos don't do it for me; again, more space is always needed and I wouldn't attempt one in less than 4 feet scenic area.

 

Iain Rice got it right.  He suggested that you could use small locos and small wagons to make it look less constrained, but Vopak shows that you don't need to do this; blend your railway into the backscene, view it from low down, and don't overcrowd it.  It is what prevents me from trying to shoehorn an extra road into the goods yard on Cwmdimbath; it'd look wrong in that narrow valley and make the shunting too easy!

[Porcy Mane]

Hi Guys,

 

Just found this fascinating thread, back in 1999 I was putting together my first web site in time for the millenium, (Using Publisher!!). One of the things I did was list my 'Top Ten' models, here are some that appeared on that list, in no particular order here they are

• North Shields, I saw this at the MRJ exhibition, or at least some of it due to the vast crowd. I saw it again at Newcastle in 1992, magnificent in all respects.
• Benfieldside, I think this was John Henry's zenith

 

Ian,

I'm surprised your ears weren't burning about lunchtime Saturday gone. Mr P mentioned your layouts and was asking after you, as a few of us sat in the Crown Pos. talking railways (model & prototype)

You probably know but JHW is moving back into British outline.

 

 

Probably the biggest influence on me, and it wasn't when I was all that young and impressionable, was Chris Pendleton's North Shields.  Before that I would never have considered anything with 2 completely separate and unconnected bits of railway, as in the high and low levels on this, would be worth serious consideration; I was of the view that it was cheating, and that you should be able to at least shunt between them; North Shields removed the blinkers.  Those photos from the yard viewpoint with the high level signals silhouetted against a grey sky...

 

 

If only he read RMweb, although after last weekend he may pop bye. (Looking for other things) I don't think he realises how inspiring some folk have found his work.

 

If only I'd read your post before Saturday.

 

P

Edited July 18, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[rogerfarnworth]

My main influences have been the Madder valley, Derek Naylor's Aire Valley and John Allen's Gorre and Daphetid. - I do seem to like big layouts!

 

One other line which I found fascinating was a freelance TT scale pre-grouping line - the North Caledonian ?  there was  couple of articles on it in a late MRN and one of the early Model Railways mag called closely watched trains and More closely watched trains respectively. I have lost these now and if anyone has them, I would dearly like to find them again.  

 

There was a slate quarry line I saw at EXPONG 30 odd years ago, with lovely fine running scatch built locos. I seem to remember it was 4mm scale 7mm  gauge? any remember this ?

 

Another line I liked was a model of Uganda Railway is something like 10mm scale on 32mm track . Have some photos of this I took an early digital camera.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tom 

 

I am interested in finding out more about this Uganda Railways layout. members of the forum will have seen that I have created a thread about the Uganda Railways. Can anyone tell me more?

[Nearholmer]

If you google ‘virtual narrow gauge model railway exhibition’, I think it’s somewhere on that site.

[rogerfarnworth]

If you google ‘virtual narrow gauge model railway exhibition’, I think it’s somewhere on that site.

 

Hi, this seems to lead me to https://www.16mm.org.uk/links but I cannot access the lists or individual posts. Do I need to join something?

best wishes

Roger

[Allegheny1600]

I have fond memories from th 1950s of the 7mm scale railway in Derby museum, especially when it was operating on Saturday morning.  What happened to it?

Sorry for the late reply! I don't think its a record, even on this thread though?

While I never got to see this wonderful railway working in its original location in the centre of Derby (Derby Museum & Art Gallery), I did help with its reconstruction at the "Silk Mill" industrial museum. My good late friend, Ron B introduced me to the guys down there in the early 1980's and I was set to work helping to (re)build some of the mainline curves - using all the materials and methods as the original: cast metal chairs with real wood keys, super-elevated curves. Basically, the plan was for the 'old' layout to be rebuilt with much gentler curves leading around to fiddle yards at the rear, rather than going under the main layout.

All led by an old friend of my family, Alan Doig. I think my friend Mike Steadman built some stock for it, too.

Enough name dropping!

I remember there were some truly skilled modellers working there, one chap once brought along a Midland loco (a 4-4-0?) and it rolled freely down the very shallow grade of the branch line until a piece of steel was placed on the track nearby and the loco then had to be pushed. Why? I asked. Simple - the steel shorted out the track and absorbed the current generated by the locos motor - that's how good this locos mechanism was even then.

By the late eighties/early nineties, I had gone off to model foreign 'muck' so I lost touch but I heard that around that time, the layout was very nearly complete when 'new management' decided that all this "amateur" work should be ripped up and be replaced by "Professionals" - I don't think I saw it again but it looks as though it's undergoing another rebuild now! https://www.derbymuseums.org/locations/silk-mill/model-railway

Cheers,

John.

[Allegheny1600]

I would also like to include a couple of layouts that I have come across whilst doing research into other projects.

 

A chap called RNH Hardy built a fairly substantial layout in his loft (it appears) and I understand this was almost all scratchbuilt - when he was a teenager;

Searching for this chap online, it seems he only died recently: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131453-rhn-dick-hardy/

Does anyone know any more about his layout?

 

Also, a very creative chap called Aldo Cosomati, who was very active prior to WW2 building a layout called the Alheeba State Railway;

http://contents.mtimag.co.uk/?issue=82

I hope to buy a copy of this magazine in the near future but in the meantime, it seems that the Science Museum in London holds some examples of his work, built in 1933.

 

Finally, Vernon Woods layout: Burford: http://www.british-ho.com/ (under "Layouts"), I have a feeling this layout (or at least, some of the stock) may have originated with Michael Longridge before moving onto Jack Nelson.

 

Actually, I must include Jack Nelson too - his dioramas were quite impressive but prior to that, he had built a lovely LNWR layout: again http://www.british-ho.com/

 

It seems that 'scenic' modelling was more widespread, earlier on, than previously thought.

Cheers,

John.

[Pacific231G]

I would also like to include a couple of layouts that I have come across whilst doing research into other projects.

 

A chap called RNH Hardy built a fairly substantial layout in his loft (it appears) and I understand this was almost all scratchbuilt - when he was a teenager;

Searching for this chap online, it seems he only died recently: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131453-rhn-dick-hardy/

Does anyone know any more about his layout?

 

Also, a very creative chap called Aldo Cosomati, who was very active prior to WW2 building a layout called the Alheeba State Railway;

http://contents.mtimag.co.uk/?issue=82

I hope to buy a copy of this magazine in the near future but in the meantime, it seems that the Science Museum in London holds some examples of his work, built in 1933.

 

Finally, Vernon Woods layout: Burford: http://www.british-ho.com/ (under "Layouts"), I have a feeling this layout (or at least, some of the stock) may have originated with Michael Longridge before moving onto Jack Nelson.

 

Actually, I must include Jack Nelson too - his dioramas were quite impressive but prior to that, he had built a lovely LNWR layout: again http://www.british-ho.com/

 

It seems that 'scenic' modelling was more widespread, earlier on, than previously thought.

Cheers,

John.

Hi John

I've got the two editions of MRN that included the Alheeba State Railway and think it may have been the first layout of any size to include more than a token amount of scenery "beyond the railway fence" well before John Ahern. I think it may also have been the first published layout with a "fiddle yard" a little before Bill Banwell and Frank Applegate's O gauge Maybank.

Edited July 4, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Pacific231G]

More on Alheeba. I've been looking at the original articles as well as the version of it in MTI 82 which is worth getting if you're interested in knowing more about this pioneering layout.

 

The original articles were published in the December 1933 and January 1934 editions of MRN. Apart from railway company display layouts wirth train turntables, Alheeba is the first published layout I've found so far that included an off-scene staging or fiddle yard.

 

 

The Maybank layout, first described in the August 1934 MRN had been around and exhibited for a couple of years by then. That had a four road motorised traverser to handle trains "off-stage" but it's not clear how long Alheeba State had been in existence when its description was published. 

 

The first actual discussion of hidden sidings I've found was an article "In Conclusion" by A.R.Walkley in the October 1937 MRN  but there are enough odd passing references by 1934 to hidden tracks in tunnels etc. to sugest that this wasn't a complete novelty.

 

A.R. Walkley did include some scenery on his layouts but Aldo Cosomati said that "Alheeba owes its existence to a veritable lust of modelmaking of all types.. houses, landscape, railway and ships" by three friends over many years. Though the scenery, mostly townscape,  wasn't as well developed as John Ahern's in the following decade it does look as if the Madder Valley was influenced by Alheeba, at least to some extent.  

Edited July 4, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Allegheny1600]

Many thanks indeed, David.

What an astonishing layout, decades ahead of its time.

I can't wait for my issue of MTI and I wonder if that article mentions what happened to the layout or its creator/s?

Cheers,

John.