What are 'Hex Frog Juicers'?

[Crewlisle]

Can one of you DCC experts out there exlain to me in plain English what a 'Hex Frog Juicer' is.  If it is a switch, what is their advantage over a simple polarity switch and can they be used with Peco solenoid point motors?

[Grovenor]

The hex frog juicer is a comparatively expensive replacement for a switch, it has the advantage that it works automatically by detecting shorts and then switching to remove the short, hence it will work even if you forget to set the points correctly.

Since it is entirely independent of the point operation it will work with any kind of point motor or with hand operated points.

Each hex frog juicer can switch 6 frogs.

Regards

Keith

[locoworks]

 non 'hex' versions are available that do only one frog.

[250BOB]

If you love wiring, and love loads of switches, then the frog juicer is not for you.

 

I find wiring in switches a part of the hobby I dont enjoy....and also, I do not use sub baseboard point motors to which switch attachments can be put.

 

There are plenty of people on here , maybe including you, that prefer to do the wiring up of polarity switches.....then forget to switch them the next time a loco passes, with the resultant short.

 

I use the Hex(6) Frog juicer in order to flick the polarity on two double slips, one single slip and a three way point. Its automatic, you dont even have to think about it.  Wiring it in place is simplicity itself.

 

On DCC if a point is set wrong the loco shorts out, and the system shuts down.......with the Frog Juicer, the system detects the short, but before the loco has time to think, the juicer  switches the polarity, and the loco continues unaffected.......miraculous.

 

But if you, like others on here, enjoy wiring point motor switches, polarity switches, then it is an expense you can avoid.

 

My one Hex Frog Juicer, which has six outlets, deals with 8 frogs without problems......two are doubled up where I know there wont be any conflicts.

 

Many people who are perhaps not too keen on wiring up points switches, love these juicers, but if your fun is wiring, then dont use them.  If you avoid wiring, then the Juicer is for you.

 

Check out this link to a previous thread. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49663-hex-frog-juicer-queries/

 

Bob

 

If you want to use them with peco solenoid point motors....thats fine, you dont then have to fit a switch to the point motor to switch the frog polarity......just wire the wire that comes from the frog, direct to the juicer, and let it switch the polarity for you automatically.

[RFS]

But if you fail to set the points correctly, all the hex frog juicer may do is correct the polarity of the frog a few milleseconds before the loco derails on the wrongly-set blades! 

[Nigelcliffe]

They're an expensive and largely unnecessary device. They replace a switch to change turnout crossing polarity.

 

They don't reduce wiring: the Juicer needs a wire from each of the main running rails, and a wire to the turnout crossing (frog). Wiring to a switch attached to turnout motor or operating lever requires an identical number of wires and connections to the same places.

 

But for some reason some people are seduced by them.

 

Nigel

[Armchair Modeller]

What is the view on using these for places where no turnout is involved - like a diamond crossing, for example? Are they a good substitute for a manual switch, or should they not be used at all?

[BRealistic]

I'm one who's happily 'seduced' by the highly innovative device... as THE alternative to mechancal switches. They're beautifully simple to instal (the 'hex' juicer has one wire to each of 6 frogs (in a turnout, a diamond crossing or even a double slip) and just a pair to the track bus... much less than switches), they work like a dream, and are 100% reliable.

 

Can't really understand why so many seem to be so prejudiced against them. They're a life-saver for me!!!

[Sunnysa]

But if you fail to set the points correctly, all the hex frog juicer may do is correct the polarity of the frog a few milleseconds before the loco derails on the wrongly-set blades! 

 

IF this is correct what is the pont. No pun intended.

 

 If the juicer only changes the frog polarity and does not change the point to the correct track the loco is going to derail anyway.

 

 Cheers

 

Ian

[Nigelcliffe]

What is the view on using these for places where no turnout is involved - like a diamond crossing, for example? Are they a good substitute for a manual switch, or should they not be used at all?

 

Obviously its personal preference...

 

For most track designs, a diamond does not exist in total isolation.  It is connected to other turnouts (perhaps some distance away) which route the train over the diamond.  So, it is usually possible to link the polarity of the diamond to the setting of the adjacent turnouts and/or signals which control the diamond. 

[RFS]

The HFJ is not cheap - works out at around £8 per frog.  Add in the cost of the point motor (solenoid, I assume) and that's around another £5 - £13 in total not including a CDU.  You can buy slow-action point motors with two built-in switches for less than that (Model Railways Direct list a 12-box of Cobalts for £129 - less than £11 each).  It's only a couple of additional wires but your hard-earned cash has been invested in a reliable slow-action motor instead of a solenoid + HFJ. No contest, in my opinion.

 

With 2 built-in switches you can control the polarity on diamond crossings via the points that connect to them: should not be necessary for stand-alone switches.

 

And, finally, this arrangement works both for DC and DCC whereas the HFJ is DCC-only.

[roundhouse]

I am happy wiring layouts conventionally.

However I often find the polarity change switches on SEEP solenoids unreliable but does depend on the batch as they do get assembled slightly differently every so often. On some of my layouts they work fine and others they dont.

 

I have tried the Peco solenoid with the twin micro switch assembly on Banbury but they took many attempts to get sone of them working correctly.

 

Eventually I gave up and started installing Frox Juicers. They have worked perfectly every time since installing them.

 

It is an added expense but for me very much worth it especially on an exhibition layout.

 

Not for everyone and it doesnt stop derailments unless yoy have sprung turnouts in one of the larger scales but it does avoid the whole layout shutting down.

 

I am now fitting them to the fiddlegard turnouts as the solenoid switches fail.

Ian

[Guest Max Stafford]

It's a daft name though; might get you a visit from the RSPCA if you order one! ;-)

[roundhouse]

It's a daft name though; might get you a visit from the RSPCA if you order one! ;-)

I have not had one croak yet!

[Armchair Modeller]

Obviously its personal preference...

 

For most track designs, a diamond does not exist in total isolation.  It is connected to other turnouts (perhaps some distance away) which route the train over the diamond.  So, it is usually possible to link the polarity of the diamond to the setting of the adjacent turnouts and/or signals which control the diamond. 

 

True, but even some PECO turnouts require a switch, if I remember correctly - maybe the 3-way I am thinking of? It is so easy to forget to switch polarity.

 

Having seen and operated a layout with frog juicers, the reliability of the solid state contacts must be a plus point. Even expensive point motors do have occasional problems with contacts.

 

It is very easy in the heat of an exhibition to forget to switch a point before you move a train across it. In the facing direction, that is just a minor embarrasment, as the train will go whichever way the point is set.

 

In the trailing direction though, I personally think it would be great if there was something like a frog juicer that not only switched the polarity of the frog but operated the point motor to move the point blades to the correct alignment too. It would save a lot of short circuits and derailments when people forget to change the points. With DCC, especially DCC sound, any short should be avoided wherever possible.

[BRealistic]

The HFJ is not cheap - works out at around £8 per frog.  Add in the cost of the point motor (solenoid, I assume) and that's around another £5 - £13 in total not including a CDU.  You can buy slow-action point motors with two built-in switches for less than that (Model Railways Direct list a 12-box of Cobalts for £129 - less than £11 each).  It's only a couple of additional wires but your hard-earned cash has been invested in a reliable slow-action motor instead of a solenoid + HFJ. No contest, in my opinion.

 

I make my own manual turnout units (see post 121 near the bottom http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54069-manual-point-control/page-5)so the cost of point motors doesn't figure in my calculations!

[Nigelcliffe]

 I personally think it would be great if there was something like a frog juicer that not only switched the polarity of the frog but operated the point motor to move the point blades to the correct alignment too. It would save a lot of short circuits and derailments when people forget to change the points. With DCC, especially DCC sound, any short should be avoided wherever possible.

 

Lots of ways of achieving automatic turnout changes.  

 

The "Wabbit" decoders for Tortoise motors do it - read their instructions.  

 

If you have block detection prior to the turnout, then the presence of a train in the block is known, and the turnouts can be set ahead of the train arriving at the turnout.  

 

It can be added very simply to many turnout decoders which support local push button input; a photo-transistor in the track before the turnout can act as the local push button input and change the direction of the turnout.

 

But, driving trains properly, not running through red signals or against the track, is the way to do it !

 

- Nigel

[roundhouse]

I would like to use wabbits.However my baseboards dont have the depth for tortoise motors.

Also one thing watch with Wabbits is if you use route setting then these can alter your routes that you have already selected

[Armchair Modeller]

Lots of ways of achieving automatic turnout changes.  

 

The "Wabbit" decoders for Tortoise motors do it - read their instructions.  

 

If you have block detection prior to the turnout, then the presence of a train in the block is known, and the turnouts can be set ahead of the train arriving at the turnout.  

 

It can be added very simply to many turnout decoders which support local push button input; a photo-transistor in the track before the turnout can act as the local push button input and change the direction of the turnout.

 

But, driving trains properly, not running through red signals or against the track, is the way to do it !

 

- Nigel

Thanks Nigel - I should have guessed someone would have thought about it before me.

 

You are thinking very much of the British way of operating though. In some foreign parts points would only be set for facing trains. The blades were arranged with enough sideplay for wheel flanges to push them sideways when necessary without the need to switch the road permanently. There were not necessarily signals at all, apart from maybe a point indicator. This was common on French narrow gauge lines.

 

Indeed, some would not have been possible to switch using the point lever on all occasions, as they would be locked by the home signals. The Dutton facing point lock used for a while in India was like this, as i suspect were others.

[Oldddudders]

Thanks Nigel - I should have guessed someone would have thought about it before me.

 

You are thinking very much of the British way of operating though. In some foreign parts points would only be set for facing trains. The blades were arranged with enough sideplay for wheel flanges to push them sideways when necessary without the need to switch the road permanently. There were not necessarily signals at all, apart from maybe a point indicator. This was common on French narrow gauge lines.

 

Indeed, some would not have been possible to switch using the point lever on all occasions, as they would be locked by the home signals. The Dutton facing point lock used for a while in India was like this, as i suspect were others.

There were certainly unworked trailing points in the UK on passenger routes. The Chessington Branch (opened just before the Hitler war) had unworked trailing points where it joined the Up line from Epsom to Waterloo. How do I know? For decades there was a large sign at the junction saying "Unworked Trailing Points"!

 

My Halwill layout is built on a baseboard that has too many supports under key pointwork, so motors are impossible, despite a box of a dozen Tortoise motors sitting around unused. I have used switches to change frog-polarity, and usually get it right - but the Frog Juicer would be more prat-proof. Others tell me I should use bowden cables/wire-in-tube etc methods, but these seem to me to require more fine-tuning to be reliable. Frog Juicers just do it - that's their USP (Unique Selling Point) and as I have all the wiring in place, connection would be quick and easy, when funds permit.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Can one of you DCC experts out there exlain to me in plain English what a 'Hex Frog Juicer' is.......?

 

 

 

 

or this.......

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

As others have said already, the generic name for these devices is not "Hex Frog Juicer".

 

The "Hex" version is the 6 way model from the Frog Juicer range.

There is also the "Mono Frog Juicer" and the "Dual Frog Juicer" (which can double up as an Auto-Reverser unit) to complete the line-up of available Frog Juicer products.

 

 

For the OP; details available here (bottom of the page).

.

[tender]

 

 

They don't reduce wiring: the Juicer needs a wire from each of the main running rails, and a wire to the turnout crossing (frog).

 

Nigel

I think it does.

A switch needs a wire from each running rail and a wire to the frog. So six turnouts = 18 wires

A hex frog Juicer just needs a DCC supply plus one wire for each frog. Six turnouts = 8 wires

 

Plus your not limited to using turnout motors with switches. I.E if like 250BOB using surface mount motors, or like i've just done using R/C servo motors (@£1.80 each, even cheaper if you get them direct from China)

 

When you think how many times a 'How do I wire up a Single/double slip, three way, diamond etc' thread comes up i'm supprised their not more widely used. Easy, connect the frog to a frog juicer. (Assuming a DCC layout)

Ray.

[Nigelcliffe]

I think it does.

A switch needs a wire from each running rail and a wire to the frog. So six turnouts = 18 wires

A hex frog Juicer just needs a DCC supply plus one wire for each frog. Six turnouts = 8 wires

 

Plus your not limited to using turnout motors with switches. I.E if like 250BOB using surface mount motors, or like i've just done using R/C servo motors (@£1.80 each, even cheaper if you get them direct from China)

 

 

Soluble with switches or relays (depends exact details of how you control the motors) for under £1 per turnout.   Or, you can buy frog juicers which make your "cheap" RC servo motors cost more than a Cobalt or Tortoise slow acting motor.

 

If you're happy, use them.   I see them as expensive, unnecessary and with unproven medium term consequences due to rail/wheel spark errosion.

 

 

- Nigel

[tender]

Soluble with switches or relays

 

 

- Nigel

You mean the ones with all the wires!