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Lynton & Barnstaple OO9 Loco from Heljan


Mike Bellamy
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  they'd buy anything even if they run it out of context.

 

Didn't we have a similar argument about the Blue Pullman - look how successful that's been because a lot of people liked what they saw and bought it - the fact that it never ran on a GWR shunting plank (for example) wasn't enough to stop them buying it - the same could be said about Tornado or any number of other models. There are very few layouts that are operated entirely with the correct stock - most have something out of context.

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...The main problem with NG is that the range of interest is much more diverse than SG modelling...

 Hard to believe when there is a vastly greater diversity of subject matter in standard gauge, and what I would guess is a hundred to one active SG:NG modeller ratio?

 

This thread is a perfect illustration of the UK narrow gauge problem. A small number of systems, all with pretty much unique equipment. There is just no way for a manufacturer to please all potential interests, short of a bankrupting effort to manufacture in short order models of all locomotive types that boasted three or more in class. (Even then there would be someone arguing that the Liver and Onions with Mash and Gravy Joint Railway  Egglesworth Humbug class musn't be ignored, just because the third one was only planned but never constructed.) The crucial aspect for those who want RTR NG is I suspect to whack in an order with serious intent to purchase. Four years ago the Roco Fairlie proposal came to naught. For why? No orders.

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Hard to believe when there is a vastly greater diversity of subject matter in standard gauge, and what I would guess is a hundred to one active SG:NG modeller ratio?

Four years ago the Roco Fairlie proposal came to naught. For why? No orders.

The percentage of modellers following continental prototypes is much larger which increases the range, look at magazines like Continental modeller and it's rare not to have any narrow gauge content, and frequently 2-3 articles, while RM etc it tends to be far less frequent.

SG modelling now is mostly focused on the big four, BR and privatisation because of rtr models while NG modelling is much more like the SG modelling of 50-60 years ago where the lack of rtr meant those capable of building could pretty much follow whatever they liked as they all required lots of scratchbuilding.

The Roco Fairlie wasn't promoted much with virtually no contact with the Uk market or advertising to drum up orders. Unless you knew about the catalogue it's unlikely you'd hear about it, I certainly only ever saw the initial announcement with no shops advertising to place an order with. With the Peco 009 there's been demand to shops but no catalogue numbers to pre order at my local one.

I think the market has significantly changed in the last 5 years as proved by the Blue Pullman.

The recent development of more obscure rtr models might actually bring SG modelling back to more models of older / smaller companies such as the SECR C getting people started in pre grouping etc and expanding a layout from a start with rtr.

Edited by PaulRhB
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Didn't we have a similar argument about the Blue Pullman - look how successful that's been

Yes but Blue **** appeal so much more at a toy level. :evil:

 

...and I'm not especially a fan of them either - but can see their appeal as a train set.

Edited by Kenton
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All of this shows why the concept of a wish list is fundamentally flawed- even asking someone if they'd buy a particular model won't get you a true result until someone can see a production model in front of them, or at least an honest review.

 

Fortunately the research has already been done in this sector, and you only have to look at what is available and has been repeatedly re-run in the larger narrow gauge scales to see what is popular, and thats where more expensive items generally mean purchases are more carefully thought through and rely less on impulse.

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As i said, I believe that this is a brilliant step forward. I doubt it will be too long before we see double ended engines coming from somewhere should these engines be a success.

 

I firmly believe that generic 009 would be a bad move in RTR. It simply would gather enough support from the enthusiasts, who I belive would much rather wait for a prototype engine. Dont get me wrong, I adore freelance engines and railways, but I firmly beleieve that they will never sell in RTR.

 

All in all, I personally believe that Heljan has played a blinder here. With the cafuffle over 'Lyd' in recent years, and the introduction of L&B RT stock,a nd with the profusion of kits that even I could build, anyone now has a decent shot at creating a believeable slice of the L&B.

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All of this shows why the concept of a wish list is fundamentally flawed- even asking someone if they'd buy a particular model won't get you a true result until someone can see a production model in front of them, or at least an honest review.

 

Fortunately the research has already been done in this sector, and you only have to look at what is available and has been repeatedly re-run in the larger narrow gauge scales to see what is popular, and thats where more expensive items generally mean purchases are more carefully thought through and rely less on impulse.

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Generic doesn't bring in the collectors market which Heljan have pursued with the BR prototypes and I'd guess this model will fall in the same marketing bracket as far as Heljan are concerned. Appeal to NG modellers and those who collect something different. Generic locos are pretty well covered in 009 so going for something iconic makes far more sense and as Keith mentioned if they'd chosen one of the 060 prototypes they'd have been told it was an obscure prototype!

 

I completely agree, Paul, the collectors market is a good draw for an L&B loco over and above a generic design.  There's also the option for anyone with a Southern Railway layout to have a feeder line in the same delivery, not to mention the same scenario for any layout using the original L&B livery to represent a freelance line.

 

You may have seen I have exactly the same objections to Peco's offering the L&B stock. I would also argue just who is going to recognise anything that last run in the 1930's - only modellers already focused on the line, certainly not the trainset market. As I said I welcome RTR OO9, just think that this prototype is wrong. I guess time will tell how much of a success it turns out to be, and if the only buyers are those interested in boxes in a collection, aficionados of the L&B, and those so desperate to run OO9 that they'd buy anything even if they run it out of context.

 

To be honest, I don't 'recognise' anything that was running before the early 80s as that's when I was born, so that rules out most of railway history... I don't see why date has anything to do with it.

 

I disagree about the 'trainset' market, look at how many 00 layouts have a narrow gauge feeder line (as per my point above), this release will probably increase that, and I have a feeling that's where a good majority of the sales could be from - 00 layouts with 009 appearing as a special add on feature to an already extant layout.

 

Look at the success Bachmann have had with the 0n30 range, that started with one loco, RTR 009 has to start somewhere, like I said before, it's just good that Peco provided the impetus with the stock and Heljan have begun working on a loco.  

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I think they have picked a excellent loco to start with. When Bachmann started in 0n30, it really took off. Look at the range now! I think its good that they have picked a large engine and there will (hopefully), I think it will boom with enthustiasts becasue of the appeal of know prototypes, be a few other popular engines over the coming years. Eg - Talyllyn, Prince, Fairlies ect

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Hi guys,

 

Been watching this thread with interest, and have to say, I think this is great news. Here's why:

 

Having seen a fair few 009 layouts, the 009 members shop etc, the thing that strikes me is the number of L & B 2-6-2 tanks (or indeed other outside frame 2-6-2s), which are running round on minitrix inside frame chassis - I think it's clear that the demand for a L & B loco is there from these, as well, of course, of the number of kits over the years for them that these have been built from - but producing the outside frame has always been tricky up to now, leading to some dissatisfaction and perhaps some suppressed demand for these locos at a good enough quality. I would note that I don't agree with the majority of kenton's points - but the light weight of leading and trailing trucks can lead to problems - good track (not always what you want to portray of course!), and some weight are essential - I hope Heljan succeed at this.

 

However, by going for the L & B locos it allows Heljan to cover Yeo, Exe, Taw and Lew(yes, with detail differences) - in the various liveries, lets say L & B and Southern, so eight varieties , the new build Lyd (in several liveries, the other new build - Yeo now getting underway again (?),  the L & B loco  Winson Engineering built for the japanese theme park...(ok maybe that ones a bit out there - but plenty of modellers in Japan of course!) - operable both on models of the L & B, and the ffestiniog Rly, oh and those modelling brazillian forestry railways of course for Lew... so 13 different flavours of loco? Not a bad variety to go at, and one matched by Heljans previous business model in the 00 diesel market. Heljan have been brave enough to cover a variety of BR diesels, often one offs, in a variety of liveries - of course with all the major BR diesel classes now 'done', perhaps 009 offers them another avenue to build upon.

 

 I think it's unarguable that the L & B is one of the most popular narrow gauge lines in the UK, of course I don't remember it being open originally - but I've bought a few books, been to the preserved line... with the coaches and wagons, I can see some of these coming my way in due course as well.

 

I think the really good bit though, is my first point. If carefully designed, what would preclude Heljan, if this is a success, from using the chassis and outside frame components, to follow up with other outside frame narrow gauge locos in 009? I'm thinking firstly of the VoR 2-6-2 tanks?,  - playing to a Heljan strength in BR blue (well, maybe that IS just me.....!) perhaps Russell or the WLLR locos?,I've no drawings to hand for those, but I do for the following -  the 0-6-2 tanks, on the campbeltown line, Argyll and Atlantic - driving wheelbase and rear trailing axle look pretty good for these, and then whilst we're at how about ER Calthrop and JB earle  on the L & M - coupled wheelbase is 1mm too short on these - I wouldn't argue with that?

 

I think it's a canny move, and allows Heljan the flexibility to develop some further exciting models if they're clever about it. For this reason, I think that the idea of a generic model doesn't work - if they're good, they've a generic chassis on their hands which they can modify to produce some of the most popular UK narrow gauge locos. If a generic model is what's wanted, there's plenty of those around from either old supplies of eggerbahn, misc. european narrow gauge diesels or plenty of Liliput 0-6-2 tanks - many 009 layouts seem to run one of those....so a 'star' model for your 009 layout wouldn't go amiss.

 

Here's a final thought, the coupled driving wheelbase of an NGG16 garrratt, is remarkably similar to the L & B locos; Heljan have history with garratts! :-), though of course that'd be a bit of work....

 

As you'll have gathered, I think it's to be greatly applauded, and cannot wait to get one ordered and delivered.

 

 

Regards

 

Rich.

 

 

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Should this model sell well i think it would be a safe bet that any follow up model would be from the FR or WHR. I imagine that the 'Fairlie' was another front runner for this first model, and could be considered close to a sure bet if there is another made.

 

As with the MW, it can be made in a huge variety of different liveries and guises (with a little modellers compromise, it could be everything from 'James Spooner' to David Lloyd George, with only the saddle tanks of EoM making a big difference).

 

The onyl other engine that I would consider to be a reasonable competitior would be 'Russell', but I'm not sure that they will take a gamble on her until the maket has been proven.

 

However, speculating on such things is putting the cart before the horse a bit :) , I'm definitely going to do my part to make the MW a success, and I hope it is but the first of many 009 locos in british RTR

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I think this is very bad news, and should be stopped :nono:. After having built nothing other than GWR layouts, and having little interest in Southern stuff (except the ex broad gauge bit!), not only is there a temptation to build a Southern Electric layout to run Hornby 2-BILs on, as they were the first trains I travelled on, but now I'm being tempted by narrow gauge too, having worked on the L&B for a while some years ago :O. I've just got to finish one layout, and build everything except one baseboard for another first!

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Although i have a little plank of 00 finescale  in a typical branch terminal with possible pretensions at  being part of a larger layout i often buy locos that dont fit the period I am supposed to be running ,that even includes some 0n30 locos, a green Wainright C and some US locos  ,just cos I like them .The L&B loco will certainly join them and some Peco 009 rolling stock .Almost certainly  another plank will be in the offering to run it  .i think It will generate new layouts  and interests ,as others have said ,not just service older  009  layouts .

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This is another great Leeds loco, well done HJ.

 

With the speculation about what else could be done there were quite a lot of 2-6-2T HE built locos supplied to Sierra Leone Government Rly.  85 is W&LLR 14 (HE 3815/1962).  This is in black at present but has carried various other liveries.

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  • 2 months later...

Well I couldn't care less if the forthcoming Heljan L&B locos were highly specific to the north Devon coast, the arrival of rtr British outline 009 has prompted me to think of a small fictional Welsh joint heavy rail/narrow guage terminal using a mix of the proposed Peco/Heljan rtr stuff and the relaunched Minitrains little tanks and diesels.  After all, most of the Welsh NG lines have all got some non-indigenous rolling stock, the FR with quarry Hunslets (and wasn't Mountaineer ex War Department?), the Talyllyn with the ex Corris locos, the Ffestiniog run WHR is entirely imported stock and as for the Welshpool and Llanfair, a truly eclectic mix of foreign and original stock, so why not transplant ex L&B stock to Wales?  On a fictional scenario, you could always posit the scenario that the original line bought L&B type locos off the peg and when the line closed the coaches were bought second hand.

 

Unless you have the space and the top notch modelling skills to model exactly a real life situation, I think it's sometimes best to invent a scenario - in which case, an L&B design is as good as any other.

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I think its great news.

 

If I was going model anything from my life time then it would be anything from the tail end of slam door EMUs from the end of the blue era  through to the current post privatisation world of DB Schenker, DRS, Virgin and wot not. My only knowledge of steam is preserved lines and the steam specials on Network rail.

 

My love of narrow gauge comes from holidays in Wales when I was small. There's more narrow gauge line in the UK than there has been for a long time. And its all preserved running everything from little hunslets through to awesome NGG16s. So naturally my narrow gauge layout is a preserved line because that's what I know. I don't care that Heljan's offering is based on one of three prototypes from North Devon or whatever. They make quality models and it will mean I can have a nice reliable model on my line together with some R-T-R stock from Peco...

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  • 2 weeks later...

the L&B is about the most uninteresting NG prototype there is...

 

I know everyone's idea of an attractive design is different. Sure, it's a personal thing, but those L&B low-slung Manning Wardle beauties are just gorgeous! I'll have them all!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Has anyone heard anything on this project? It's gone awfully quiet... Is this normal practice after an announcement of a model until a prototype is shown? (spot the 009 modeller who hasn't bought an RTR model for over a decade so can't remember how marketing works ;) )

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