Hobby Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) Perhaps a little understanding of why it may have taken Heljan so long may not go amiss? If they have pulled production from a factory, and are incurring additional costs in moving production, it may well be that the lawyers have been involved and that comment could not be made for fear of breaching existing contracts. I have been in such a position with my work before now, desperate to let customers know what is going on, but legally unable to do so. Roy I got the impression that they only moved because of the quality issues... The advantage with Social Media is that it gives manufacturers the chance to see straight away if there any issues with their new products and react to those issues, even if it's only a holding reply such as "We are aware that some models may have valve gear/pick up issues and we are investigating"... My comment simply pointed out that Heljan failed miserably in that respect. Eventually they got their act together and said something but by that time the locos reputation had been trashed, being more on the ball could have made things a lot different... I don't want Heljan to fail, but they really need to help themselves, the feedback is out there if they want to use it... Most companies outside the model railways field seem to have got the message, it's about time MR companies moved into the 21st century... BTW I was watching two of the locos perform without any issues on an oval of Peco 9" setrack over the Welshpool Gala and the owner had said that he'd got them from Peco who had check and tested them before sending them out... Perhaps that's all that was needed... Edited September 9, 2017 by Hobby 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 (edited) It is my understanding that PECO distributed all of the first 420 batch, this could be misinmformation but it is the info I was given. I know my 2 definitely came via Peco to the retailer Regarding testing I tested my 2 when I received them they were tested on an oval of 282mm radius of Unitrack and of course they ran ok, no points to traverse., when the continuous long run on the 009 layout was completed which had 12"min radius curves gradients between 1in 25 & 1 in 30 and several points they ran fine also, as by that time to pony pick up problems were addressed by removing the brass springy bits! and the coupling heights had been adjusted to a correct height. However after approx. 2hours actual running the first loco's valve gear failed, the 2nd loco lasted several days longer failing after around 20 hours running. So really a brief test may not show faults which may occur in time, although I know of at least one loco which failed immediately power was applied. Incidentally the valve gear failures occurred on my 2 in exactly the same location on the layout, when traversing an approx. 18" curve, which was checked after no 2 failed and was found to be OK ( ie no kinks or anything wrong with the track laying!!) and was tested with several other locos including the full Roco H0e range of locos and some USA outline N gauge locos including a 'Big Boy' Edited September 9, 2017 by Stevelewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvwilson Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 My order was placed in may 2014. Hattons in writing last week to me have said they will only charge me the original price of £146. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted September 9, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 9, 2017 I quite agree. It took time to sort out the Class 17s but in the end, whole new chassis were provided to us. That sort of thing cannot be done quickly and Heljan, to its credit, resolved the problem. It cannot have been cheap. I would expect the product to be tested before being sold to the gen public. I find it deplorable that models are still being sold while Heljan clearly realise there is a problem to the extent they are changing suppliers . Let's see what the model railway press say............. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Someone somewhere is losing money on this, hopefully not the shop! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Someone somewhere is losing money on this, hopefully not the shop! The retailers I deal with have said that they have no problem with returned faulty items, when they receive them from the purchaser, they either handed to a company salesman or sent back to the manufacturer ( In the case of the Manning Wardles they were given to the Peco rep, as Peco had supplied them on Heljans behalf) I have heard though that Revised production of the MW will have to be at a Higher price than the original SRSP for obvious reasons a lot has occurred since 2013 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 10, 2017 Share Posted September 10, 2017 I note there is a L&B MW on eBay currently price at the time of posting £59. The description states new but runs with a slight WOBBLE! A Prelude to valve gear failure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 As Mentioned in the NG section Dundas have a few 9950 MWs @ £170. no more until quarter1 of next year ( optimistically) Surprising as it may seem I ordered one, despite having had 2 with valve gear failures, some may think I am Daft, but surely not 3 out of 3, who knows time will tell!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 As Mentioned in the NG section Dundas have a few 9950 MWs @ £170. no more until quarter1 of next year ( optimistically) Surprising as it may seem I ordered one, despite having had 2 with valve gear failures, some may think I am Daft, but surely not 3 out of 3, who knows time will tell!! I'm collecting one from Woody Bay on Saturday. Should be a fun review to write. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Surely all of the first batch, ie those already distributed, are suspect? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 Surely all of the first batch, ie those already distributed, are suspect? We don't know how many were in the first batch. Or how many of them are still running perfectly OK. I would presume that there's a higher-than-acceptable rate of returns, not that ALL of them are going to fail. It's much more likely that when the second batch were inspected/tested the 'pass rate' was too low and at that point the decision was taken not to distribute them. I believe that there is a limited pool of skill and experience in this type of manufacture available in China and that the very high demand for product at present has led to setting up of new factories where the skill and experience levels are inadequate for the standard of work required. A 'OO9' locomotive with outside frames and valve gear was always going to be a tricky operation for even the most experienced and skilled staff. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I received mine from Dundas this morning, as I stated sometime ago I would not touch another with a bargepole, but looking around I cant find my bargpole it probably fell into the canal during the last storm! But seriously I jumped in with 2 feet when I picked up the Dundas ad in 009 News, speaking to some others in the know (apparently) it would appear that the suggested availability date of Q1 18 may be optimistic, so working on the premise that having had 2 failures already the odds on No 3 failing must be reduced so resistance became futile and I spoke to Andy ( I think that is his name??) yesterday had a nice chat about things 009 and I ordered a loco. The loco has had a test run this morning and it all seems fine, it ran on the shed layout still under construction traversing a looped 8 continuous run with 2 gradients and 6 Peco 18" points in the circuit, no derailments or anything to note. I was concerned that the tunnelled section on the line which is 6 Peco coaches long and on a 90' curve may have caused clearance problems due to the loco overhang but it was OK ( the tunnelled section was constructed using a couple of Fourdees 0-6-0 locos as a size guide which was a bit daft I suppose. I have decided to sell the Fourdees locos, as I prefer to use digital and digitizing fourdees whilst not impossible is a little fiddly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted September 28, 2017 Share Posted September 28, 2017 I received mine from Dundas this morning, as I stated sometime ago I would not touch another with a bargepole, but looking around I cant find my bargpole it probably fell into the canal during the last storm! But seriously I jumped in with 2 feet when I picked up the Dundas ad in 009 News, speaking to some others in the know (apparently) it would appear that the suggested availability date of Q1 18 may be optimistic, so working on the premise that having had 2 failures already the odds on No 3 failing must be reduced so resistance became futile and I spoke to Andy ( I think that is his name??) yesterday had a nice chat about things 009 and I ordered a loco. The loco has had a test run this morning and it all seems fine, it ran on the shed layout still under construction traversing a looped 8 continuous run with 2 gradients and 6 Peco 18" points in the circuit, no derailments or anything to note. I was concerned that the tunnelled section on the line which is 6 Peco coaches long and on a 90' curve may have caused clearance problems due to the loco overhang but it was OK ( the tunnelled section was constructed using a couple of Fourdees 0-6-0 locos as a size guide which was a bit daft I suppose. I have decided to sell the Fourdees locos, as I prefer to use digital and digitizing fourdees whilst not impossible is a little fiddly. Glad it looks promising. Hope mine is the same. Yes, I think Q1 next year may be optimistic, although if it's a complete re-tool it might be quicker than if it's not. In this business one gets to hear some interesting stories about the perceived 'ownership' of tooling. 'Possession is nine points of the law' and all that. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) Just a quick update on my 3rd L&B Loco received a couple of days ago................ It ran fine as reported earlier, but in removing it from the layout the motion on the left side fell apart ( see Pic) This was a couple of days ago I was reluctant to reprt it at first not wanting to add more doom & Gloom, but I then considered that there may be some considering buying the locos which are still being offered from various sources. so I thought the info should be posted. The Cyano/adhesive/lubricant theory seems to be gaining ground though, this is my 3rd loco failure all failures on the left side of the loco. Edited September 30, 2017 by Stevelewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 It looks as if it would have looked nice before it fell apart, if you can follow that. I have two on pre-order. Luckily, I didn’t get them. Steve, perhaps you should drag the canal for your bargepole. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockershovel Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 I note there is a L&B MW on eBay currently price at the time of posting £59. The description states new but runs with a slight WOBBLE! A Prelude to valve gear failure? What did it make? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted September 30, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) Just a quick update on my 3rd L&B Loco received a couple of days ago................ It ran fine as reported earlier, but in removing it from the layout the motion on the left side fell apart ( see Pic) This was a couple of days ago I was reluctant to reprt it at first not wanting to add more doom & Gloom, but I then considered that there may be some considering buying the locos which are still being offered from various sources. so I thought the info should be posted. The Cyano/adhesive/lubricant theory seems to be gaining ground though, this is my 3rd loco failure all failures on the left side of the loco. Good that you post this Steve. I can't understand how this can be continued to be offered for sale when there are these level of defects . Good consideration for future consumers. 3 out of 3 , not even with a barge pole! Edited September 30, 2017 by Legend Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 What did it make? Not sure I forgot to check it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 It looks as if it would have looked nice before it fell apart, if you can follow that. I have two on pre-order. Luckily, I didn’t get them. Steve, perhaps you should drag the canal for your bargepole. Its a nice looking loco, and the actual chassis is smooth and powerful, with good haulage capacity, Basically I think all Heljan need to do is get a manufacturer to re design the way the valve gear is held together ( perhaps with no adhesive used) and ditch the pony pickups which I found on my previous locos were not necessary and fit the ponies with a light springing arrangement which pivots when the pony does! & Correct the way that the valve gear covers are attached, so they don't move and Foul the points! I cannot see them appearing in 3 to 4 months though I could be wrong but I reckon it will take longer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Midland Mole Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 (edited) In total we have sold around 8 L&B locos (mix of Yeo & Exe) and not one of the purchasers have reported a problem to us, take from that what you will but obviously a good number of the first batch were fine. Alex Edited September 30, 2017 by Midland Mole Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 In total we have sold around 8 L&B locos (mix of Yeo & Exe) and not one of the purchasers have reported a problem to us, take from that what you will but obviously a good number of the first batch were fine. Alex Perhaps they have not been run much yet,ie bought by people without layouts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted September 30, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 30, 2017 In total we have sold around 8 L&B locos (mix of Yeo & Exe) and not one of the purchasers have reported a problem to us, take from that what you will but obviously a good number of the first batch were fine. Alex This is the kind of concrete information that's needed. I'm in no sense in the market for one of these....but if I were,here is the sort of reassurance that I would find invaluable....much frustration and anger being spent on this model as it is.This is where a genuine model retailer can supply its clients with useful knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Smith Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Just a quick update on my 3rd L&B Loco received a couple of days ago................ It ran fine as reported earlier, but in removing it from the layout the motion on the left side fell apart ( see Pic) This was a couple of days ago I was reluctant to reprt it at first not wanting to add more doom & Gloom, but I then considered that there may be some considering buying the locos which are still being offered from various sources. so I thought the info should be posted. The Cyano/adhesive/lubricant theory seems to be gaining ground though, this is my 3rd loco failure all failures on the left side of the loco. Steve- I'm sorry but not entirely surprised to hear this. I'm afraid I'm a sceptic and when I read that you were buying a third I considered placing a bet on it failing.......seriously though, is there some suggestion that the motion is assembled using an adhesive of some sort? I must have missed that in the thread! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Midland Mole Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 Perhaps they have not been run much yet,ie bought by people without layouts? That might be the case with some, but 3 of them were purchased by one person and I do know he has run them and is very happy with them. You may well be right that a couple of them were bought mainly for display purposes, but obviously I don't know for sure. Alex Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevelewis Posted September 30, 2017 Share Posted September 30, 2017 In total we have sold around 8 L&B locos (mix of Yeo & Exe) and not one of the purchasers have reported a problem to us, take from that what you will but obviously a good number of the first batch were fine. Alex It has been the luck of the draw! The retailer I bought my first 2 from received 12 in total I think 2 are still uncollected! and 8 have been returned. As I reported earlier one of mine lasted around 20 hours running time, possibly a little more first one about 5 hours, the latest one this week 15 minutes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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