Improving Lima HST

[sub39h]

Hello all,

 

I used to have a train set when I was younger. Now I'm older I'm interested in getting to "railway modelling". Some of my fleet will be recycled from when I was a tot, but I have acquired some new trains. The addition I am happiest with is a full Lima InterCity 125 in Swallow livery which has taken me about a month and quite considerable expense considering these models are 20 years old. 

 

Anyhow, I am wanting to update my Lima HST power cars and this is where I ask for the help from the experts. I plan on running two motorised power cars. (I actually have 4 motorised power cars chopped and changed from different sets and eBay listings, and 2 dummy cars). 

 

I've not had a chance to run them yet, but it seems to be the consensus on t'interweb that the old Lima pancake motors are noisy and can be unreliable. As I was wanting to add DCC to them and full directional lights, I thought it a good time to change the motors. But here is where I get stuck - with Hornby now having produced 3 different types of HST (from what I can gather), and some recommending that you swap chassis with newer models I am never sure what is being referred to. 

 

I will have 2 donor Triang Hornby type HSTs from the recent R2613 pack (needed them for the coaches for a loco-hauled train I'll be running and considering the prices that Hornby's new TSOs are going for I essentially got the power cars for free for the prices I paid for the sets). Can I take the chassis from these and swap my Lima bodies onto them? Is this a big job or quite straight foward? 

 

Alternatively i've seen a chassis and drive unit on eBay for one of the later super-detail HSTs with centre drive. is it worth investing in this at £50 odd and running a single motor? I've also seen the motor X942B - can I use this or will my Lima bogies not work (i hear they use shorter axles). 

 

In all I am very confused with the options and what will and wont' work. 

 

Advice would be most welcome

Edited March 4, 2013 by sub39h

[kintbury jon]

I opted to go for replacing both the power and dummy car  with the new Hornby power car and dummy car.  The only problem is that the beige used by Hornby is different to the Lima coaches but I think it is worth it for a smooth running power car with directional lighting at each end.

 

R2702 is the reference number.  I would sell all the power cars that you have and use the money to go towards the pack.  I don't know how easy they are to find now though, there don't seem to be any on ebay at the moment.

[sub39h]

TMC seem to have them in stock, but I've got some of the newer Mk3s and the colour difference is enough to bother me for me to not want to go down that route. (That was the original plan before I got a TGS and discovered that Hornby had changed the colour.) Plus they Mk3s have been assigned to a loco hauled sleeper service now. the Lima HSTs are plenty detailed enough for me anyways! 

 

if i had the 2 FO cars I'd have a full rake of the Hornby Mk3s and then i would consider it. but i've been looking for weeks and not found any and the ones that appear on eBay go for silly money.

Edited March 4, 2013 by sub39h

[Theakerr]

I have motors in both power cars and whilst they may be a bit noisy I think at high speed they actually sound like a HST.    So until they fail they will stay.   By the way the kids love them especially with the noise.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Theakerr

[sub39h]

haha i would like sound at a later date, so quieter motors would be necessary! 

[kintbury jon]

One option is to repaint the beige with the railmatch exec light grey. It's not that large an area to paint. I keep meaning to get round doing it with mine!

 

You may be able to fit the Hornby power unit into the Lima body - I don't know whether anyone has tried it (?)

Edited March 4, 2013 by kintbury jon

[sub39h]

That is a brilliant idea. I'm disappointed I didn't think of that myself... Seems a shame to waste the power cars I have tho. One of them I bought in the mid-90s and it's never been run because I never had another power car or any coaches to go with it! I guess I want to see it run for sentimental value.

 

I will however take your suggestion under serious consideration.

[James]

I would sell all the power cars that you have and use the money to go towards the pack. I don't know how easy they are to find now though, there don't seem to be any on ebay at the moment.

Why? Seems a shame given the OP and the Lima HST power cars are very good - Jim S-W rates them highly enough to have them on BNS so they must have some merit!

 

Why don't you try giving the motors a good clean and regease them, then stick as much lead in as you can. That will make a difference once they have been run extensively to bed them back in.

I've not had a chance to run them yet, but it seems to be the consensus on t'interweb that the old Lima pancake motors are noisy and can be unreliable.

Many people are ill informed about Lima motors - not so long ago it was fashionable to knock Lima and sadly people just repeat what they read on Electricnose! But service them and they can run very well indeed. They require more effort to keep in good order but I think it's worth it to keep older models which ahve sentinmental value going

[NickL2008]

Its more so about a Matter of taste really, The Lima motors can run ok, but they are noisy, I ran one in one of my 73s not long ago on a friends layout, and it performed poorly ( everything was checked thoroughly connection wise, wheels were clean) and it got to the point where I just took it off, a shame really, but IMHO there are better motors out there that perform so much better than the Lima Pancake im sorry to say

 

NL

[sub39h]

thanks James, but i just figured that since i'd be performing surgery on them for the DCC and lights changing the motors for ones without the same drawbacks was a bit of a no-brainer? 

[kintbury jon]

Why? Seems a shame given the OP and the Lima HST power cars are very good - Jim S-W rates them highly enough to have them on BNS so they must have some merit!

 

Why don't you try giving the motors a good clean and regease them, then stick as much lead in as you can. That will make a difference once they have been run extensively to bed them back in.

 

Many people are ill informed about Lima motors - not so long ago it was fashionable to knock Lima and sadly people just repeat what they read on Electricnose! But service them and they can run very well indeed. They require more effort to keep in good order but I think it's worth it to keep older models which ahve sentinmental value going

Fair point.

 

I have quite a steep gradient on a couple of my lines so the haulage capability of the Hornby power car meant that it could haul a 7+2 rake up and over my flyover without any issues.  It's also the reason I remotored my Lima 59's with Bachmann 66 motors.

 

In terms of stock, I really like the Lima HST coaches and the train can be pushed around the layout with no problems.  My sons Hornby FGW HST cannot be reversed or the coaches fall off!

Edited March 5, 2013 by kintbury jon

[sub39h]

I have contacted TMC to ask if they would change the beige on R2702 for me and they've said it isn't worth the risk for them. I wouldn't have the equipment or skill to do it myself so we're back to changing the motors if anyone has any ideas?

Edited March 5, 2013 by sub39h

[James]

Risk?!

 

Any number of respray specialists should be able to help you on a matter like this. It's the sort of job I'd have happily done when I was doing things professionally - all you need to agree upon is which brand of paint will offer the closest match and that you are happy for them to use that paint. Thus, you take the risk as the customer. They should evenm be able to produce samples so you could check the paint against the coaches you wished them to match.

[sub39h]

i thought it a bit odd that they weren't willing to do it, but hey ho. anyway it has occurred to  me since that my layout will probably not be able to hold a full rake so chances are i'll be running shortened ones in which case i might run 2 HST sets and i'll need at least 2 motorised cars and i wouldn't be able to afford 2 of the new Hornby set at the minute. i'd be unhappy running one Lima one and one Hornby super-detail because of the differences between the models. 

 

so the questions from my OP still stand if anyone had any suggestions? i've found the Black Cat Technologies lighting kit for the Hornby HST and i was wondering if that would be compatible with the Lima one. i'm sure that there wouldn't be a problem with the electrics but will the LEDs fit under the different body shape of the Lima power car? 

[James]

Speak to Express Models, I'm certain they'll be able to help you with the Lima models.

[Theakerr]

Are Black Beetle still in business?  I seem to remember they did a unit that would fit into the HST.  Also, might want to look at some of the US outline stuff to see if there is anyhting of similar measurements.  For example i fitted a Kato chassis into my Lima Deltic.  The wheel diameter was almost true for an 00 deltic and the dimensions were for the most part within 1/2 mm (based on the incorrectly dimensioned lima deltic)

[sub39h]

I've emailed Express Models.

 

I also emailed a company called motorbogies.com after searching for Black Beetle. They are a stockist. They've recommended either a Black Beetle motor bogie or a BullAnt one. The BullAnt is one specifically for the Hornby HST. 

 

I have done some research on the Black Beetle one and there seems to be some negative reviews on it. Apparently it only has a top scale speed on 75mph, and motorbogies.com inform me that it won't stand continuous running as it'll overheat due to being self contained in the bogie. 

 

The BullAnt one is expensive however. The email lists a product which I can't find on their webpage but other motors are in the region of £70! I have found another seller that has them listed at more like £40 though. 

 

They also sell Tenshodo motors? I've found one which will fit the bill. Are they any good?

Edited March 6, 2013 by sub39h

[Theakerr]

Serendipity is a funny thing,  Yesterday after posting I continued my ongoing job of thinning out old magazines and in the 1991 Railway Modeller I came across an article by Richard Savory about re-motoring a Lima HST.  A bit more complicated than just replacing the motor but doable.  He uses bogies from an Athern GP38-2, a Sagami motor a flywheel and makes up a drive shaft .  PM me if you want to follow up further.

[sub39h]

thanks very much, but I wonder how much help a 22 year old article would be? I assume the technology would have moved on a lot in that time. 

 

I've contacted P4 New Street's Jim S W who has used a class 25 motor and chassis with a class 158 worm gear that boosts the top speed to prototypical. This is now my favoured method, but I need to find a cheap 25! Most on eBay go for about £40

[James]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/classifieds/item/527-Bachmann-chassis-for-class-73sr-emu-re-motoring/

 

And it's already chopped up in bits - simply swap the frame and you're away.

[sub39h]

PM'ed

[sub39h]

Just a bit of a bump on this thread. I have acquired a Bachmann 25 motor courtesy of James. I have had a look at what would be required and whilst I feel I am up to the task, I still would like to run 2 power cars and finding another cheaper 25 motor has been troublesome. I managed to come across a company that provides new modern motors for the Class 43. I'm surprised I didn't come across it before. The website is a little shoddy which always makes me wary, but I was wondering if anyone had any experience of the company/motors

 

http://www.diesel-trains.co.uk/lima_motor_kits.html

 

Thanks again

[Horsetan]

^^

They are pretty much the same type of replacement motor that the recently-defunct Australian firm ModelTorque used to supply for exactly the same purpose. I think they were originally meant for things like cassette players and DVD/CD drives.

 

I have used them to upgrade an ex-Lima Class 40, and they are certainly a little stronger than the original Lima motor.

[Neal Ball]

Interesting thread, good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

I have a Lima HST in GWT Merlin livery, which Hornby have not yet done. Nor have they gone the GWT fagpacket green....

 

Mine no longer has the power and/or inclination to haul a decent set of carriages round the layout, so also needs to get fixed... But like anything else there are higher priorities at the moment.

[Fat Controller]

Might it be worth seeing if the requisite drive train components from the more recent Hornby power-car are available from someone like East Kent Models? I've gone down this road with a few older items of stock where the body has been detailed; it's normally relatively simple to do, and you can even keep the old Lima 'chassis' moulding if you so wish, simply installing new bogies, driveshafts and motor.