Improving Lima HST

[Derekstuart]

Isn't this Hornby 'new' tooling directly copied from the Lima body anyway?

Do you find that the see through radiator grills make much of a difference?

[Downendian]

No I don't believe it is Derek. The Lima has the correct exhaust ports, and lacks a window on the guard compartment. I do like the see through grilles on the Hornby model, but for £100 quid or so I can live without them.

Neil

[Derekstuart]

Thanks Neil.

 

That was my appraisal too. (I am also in the "the less mazak I encounter, the better" group- so the plastic Lima chassis has some advantages there too.

 

When you say 'correct' exhaust ports, are you referring to the depiction of them being round rather than oval or the lack of air deflector?

 

[Downendian]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the latest Hornby blue-grey HST power cars have incorrect MTU roof profiles to fit with the later release power cars from the Hornby stable. Lima ones are more correct for 1970s/1980s era., and include the smoke deflectors as you say.

Neil

[Derekstuart]

Not ANOTHER error by Hornby!??!

I have seen the HST released with correctly applied deflector- but as for the actual shape of the exhaust port I have never personally seen them as round as depicted above, but that's not to say they weren't so fitted when new (or with Mirlees engines perhaps?)

[Downendian]

HSTs from new were Paxman Valentas - derived believe it or not from the Ventura that was in D830.

At least Hornby got their class 31 ports right - lima 31s have the incorrect Mirrlees ports so are actually class 30s!

Neil

[Derekstuart]

There were a few HSTs fitted with Mirlees MB190 as a comparison to the Valenta (167-170). It was not a success and they were all re-fitted with Valenta's.

 

I'm not sure if the Mirlees engines were fitted new or retro-fitted. But either way they were LONG before the Ventura/VP185 re-engineering.

[Rhydgaled]

You're absolutely right, except only one RailRoad HST was produced - R2707 in Virgin livery and I'll bet you a shiny penny you can't find one

I know they only did it in Virgin livery, but have they discontinued spares for them as well as the model itself? Or is there some critical component (other than the body which of course would come from the old Lima model the owner wants to re-power) which is not produced as spares?

[GarrettTheThief]

I think they still do chassis, motorised bogies and dummy bogies.  At least, I can find them quite easily on eBay.  I don't think they're hugely difficult to get hold of.

[Flood]

Recent Hornby HST chassis crop up on ebay a fair bit - I've picked three up now for around £40-50. They (almost scarily) directly fit the Lima body and all is needed is some form of attachment.

The new Hornby power cars are very expensive and this makes a completely acceptable alternative and having a modern power unit under an old Lima model is I think the way to go if you're wanting to repowering your Lima models.

Hornby model (unaltered) to the front, Lima on Hornby chassis to the rear. Guess which one has the correct engine exhausts?

image.jpg

 

Neil

Both do.

 

Photo attached of an HST power car before the deflectors were added: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/8412518976/in/photolist-8nPfPT-dpayqu-nDDMKf-dPomNC-fbvdw3-iNyeP2-hPTZG5-ayQ6wZ-bpWgxY-9MbVrt-o9c1ZJ-ozQ3Kn-7PPTZp-di2vso-iUgr8m-ay2XFt-bNf8ek-fHWsSE-jcydm4-6RfoLc-gDuiat-kscPPT-iUgqCJ-9nWg9Z-mYYPkM-ob7hMW-8QNJkq-qEi1yN-gDu7Bf-gDujLp-nEveLE-hPUeQz-h48kLN-owhBUW-mTMcSK-dEzbcB-dEEy13-omjBXx-pPZ6AX-67TMkF-isHx29-ddWpkJ-e4jN6P-9R1vBe-9RYWTJ-kxJrGp-adUEnZ-qiqPB7-poHwud-ay2gd2

Edited February 24, 2015 by Flood

[Titan]

There were a few HSTs fitted with Mirlees MB190 as a comparison to the Valenta (167-170). It was not a success and they were all re-fitted with Valenta's.

 

I'm not sure if the Mirlees engines were fitted new or retro-fitted. But either way they were LONG before the Ventura/VP185 re-engineering.

I am not so sure, Whilst their performance did not justify further development, I think they carried on in service for a while until withdrawn and stored, and then became the first recipients of the VP185's, in the very early 1990's - The first VP185 re-engine was also a long time ago, particularly compared to the more recent MTU upgrades. Then one of them got written off in the Southall crash with the side ripped off clearly showing the pink VP185.

[Derekstuart]

That's interesting. I think most of us knew the deflector were a later addition, but it does indeed look like the exhaust ports were changed in shape too.

Both do.

 

Photo attached of an HST power car before the deflectors were added: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/8412518976/in/photolist-8nPfPT-dpayqu-nDDMKf-dPomNC-fbvdw3-iNyeP2-hPTZG5-ayQ6wZ-bpWgxY-9MbVrt-o9c1ZJ-ozQ3Kn-7PPTZp-di2vso-iUgr8m-ay2XFt-bNf8ek-fHWsSE-jcydm4-6RfoLc-gDuiat-kscPPT-iUgqCJ-9nWg9Z-mYYPkM-ob7hMW-8QNJkq-qEi1yN-gDu7Bf-gDujLp-nEveLE-hPUeQz-h48kLN-owhBUW-mTMcSK-dEzbcB-dEEy13-omjBXx-pPZ6AX-67TMkF-isHx29-ddWpkJ-e4jN6P-9R1vBe-9RYWTJ-kxJrGp-adUEnZ-qiqPB7-poHwud-ay2gd2

 

Maybe, but I don't recall reading of any HSTs being stored before privatisation (other than for short term works/ waiting for cabs to be moulded). It is of course possible that they were the PC's chosen to trial the Ventura.

 

The Ventura was originally blue so if it was pink it must have been a rebuilt unit at some point (not unusual in an engine of that age). I am told that a Valenta usually was rebuilt at 24-30 months. That's an expensive service life.

 

As for MTU.... Repeat after me "HST's were NEVER under ANY circumstances re-powered with MTU engines and any report to the contrary is by people who think it's funny to wind happy HST passengers up. Furthermore the idea of replacing a HST engine with something sounding like a sewing machine motor undermines the spirit of the HST and the National pride in the worlds most successful diesel and the proud heritage of the Paxman diesel company." Now copy that out 100 times and wash your mouth out with diesel and lubricating oil for mentioning that desecration.

 

(rant over, haha)

I am not so sure, Whilst their performance did not justify further development, I think they carried on in service for a while until withdrawn and stored, and then became the first recipients of the VP185's, in the very early 1990's - The first VP185 re-engine was also a long time ago, particularly compared to the more recent MTU upgrades. Then one of them got written off in the Southall crash with the side ripped off clearly showing the pink VP185.

[Titan]

Erm, HST's have never been fitted with Venturas, which are even older than the Valentas! Looking at the Paxman history site, whilst I think it was usual for Paxmans to be blue, there are indeed some shown pink so the VP185 might have been that colour from new. I don't think the ex Mirlees power cars were stored for very long, probably around 18 months. 

[Derekstuart]

The VP185 when new was named "Ventura". I was aboard enough of the pre-service trials.

 

That doesn't mean that there was not a Ventura before that.

[Downendian]

Both do.

 

Photo attached of an HST power car before the deflectors were added: https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/8412518976/in/photolist-8nPfPT-dpayqu-nDDMKf-dPomNC-fbvdw3-iNyeP2-hPTZG5-ayQ6wZ-bpWgxY-9MbVrt-o9c1ZJ-ozQ3Kn-7PPTZp-di2vso-iUgr8m-ay2XFt-bNf8ek-fHWsSE-jcydm4-6RfoLc-gDuiat-kscPPT-iUgqCJ-9nWg9Z-mYYPkM-ob7hMW-8QNJkq-qEi1yN-gDu7Bf-gDujLp-nEveLE-hPUeQz-h48kLN-owhBUW-mTMcSK-dEzbcB-dEEy13-omjBXx-pPZ6AX-67TMkF-isHx29-ddWpkJ-e4jN6P-9R1vBe-9RYWTJ-kxJrGp-adUEnZ-qiqPB7-poHwud-ay2gd2

Very useful information indeed Flood - gaining photos of exhaust ports and roof panels for modelling purposes must be one of the most difficult aspects of D&E modelling. So the Hornby model is a true 1976 veteran.

Neil

[Titan]

The VP185 when new was named "Ventura". I was aboard enough of the pre-service trials.

 

That doesn't mean that there was not a Ventura before that.

OK fair enough, I guess they re-named it to avoid confusion...

Edited February 24, 2015 by Titan

[sub39h]

I think (correct me if I'm wrong someone) the latest Hornby blue-grey HST power cars have incorrect MTU roof profiles to fit with the later release power cars from the Hornby stable. Lima ones are more correct for 1970s/1980s era., and include the smoke deflectors as you say.

Neil

Hornby have actually gone through great lengths to offer several different variants with their tooling. The INTERCITY Swallow pack R2702 actually has one each of the original build HST with guard compartment and one later build without. They even have different cooling and oil fan arrangements on the roof.

 

As far as I'm aware, all the BR variants have been correct?

[Derekstuart]

Does anyone have any good photos of the roofs on the different variants?

When you get to my age, you lose track of time and which variant came in which order.

 

If I recall correctly, the cooling fan shutters used to be longitudinal, but then became transverse and had the habit of opening and closing when idle power brought the temperature just on the line between open and close.

[SHerr]

Recent Hornby HST chassis crop up on ebay a fair bit - I've picked three up now for around £40-50. They (almost scarily) directly fit the Lima body and all is needed is some form of attachment.

The new Hornby power cars are very expensive and this makes a completely acceptable alternative and having a modern power unit under an old Lima model is I think the way to go if you're wanting to repowering your Lima models.

Hornby model (unaltered) to the front, Lima on Hornby chassis to the rear. Guess which one has the correct engine exhausts?

image.jpg

Neil

I was reading through this thread a couple of weeks ago pondering my own HST project, after getting a great deal on 7 Excecutive mk 3s at the Doncaster show recently.

 

I had looked at full spec Hornby but £170 plus for something that won't see that much use seemed steep, but Lima PC's pulling 7 coaches round sharp curves into a fiddle yard didn't look promising either and they would need upgrading to DCC. I looked at some DCC conversions on eBay and fitting a BullAnt motor but I presumed new motor would need lots more weight and was still going to come out at over £100 with the prices being quoted.

 

I then read this post. Then the next day, as if by magic, a new spec Hornby chassis appeared and was snapped up for just over £40, another £35 got a good condition Lima Exec PC set and hey presto, good body, great haulage capacity and reliable motor with DCC for £75 - with the exception of no lights that makes one great deal - and yes fitting the chassis is an absolute sinch, it just slips straight on.

[Sir Topham Hatt]

The HST is just out of my modelling era but I do like the original blue/yellow liveries and I already had a rake of Airfix blue/grey coaches which match both the Lima and Hornby power cars.  So when I spotted a pair of Lima 43s in that livery last week I bid for them, despite it being described as a non-runner, and got the pair for £14.

 

The paitwork was great and the fault turned out to be a dry solder joint!  I removed the motor and stripped it down, cleaned the commutator and replaced the brushes and springs (spare bits box) then lubricated all moving parts.  The motor was refitted and a DCC Concepts decoder was wired in.  The whole job took barely an hour.

 

Result - as expected, whith the budget overhaul it runs like a dream, is as quiet as any of my newer locos and happily pulls the 8 car set withjust the one motor with no problem on mild inclines.  Like said above, the Lima loco is as good to look at as any, compares well with Hornby's new model.  The Lima pancake is nothin like the old Hornby one - it is easily dismantled and the 'pancake' armature is far thicker so it performs far better.  The gear design is inherently quieter too.  If yours is noisy, check the brushes and gears as both are able to make noise if left unloved.  If the motor lacks power and you've given it a once over, try changing the magnet as these can loose their power over years - and most Limas are now a bit aged! 

 

The Hornby railroad range that uses the old Lima shells are, in my experience, all good value and, yes, they don't seem to have changed the shells at all so the Horby RR chassis should fit, but I'm sure someone here cn confirm that.  All a lot cheaper than a new Hornby set at over £200 so if you are on a budget, worth a try first?

 

As for the Blackbeetle bogies, I use just two (plus 2 unmotored pickup ones) to power my 8 car Blue Pullman.  They are slightly noisier than my reconditioned Lima 43 and they are not as fast but I'm not looking to run a scale 90mph, let alone 125!  My 14x12' layout doesn't allow such reckless driving.......! 

[sub39h]

Airfix don't make Mk3 coaches?

[Sir Topham Hatt]

Yes, you are quite right, they didn't but since I don't model this era I was happy with the mk2s in the right livery - they look fine to the not so critical eye and at under a tenner each new from a toy fair they are somewhat cheaper - but yes, not right! 

 

Now, who w onas it that bet a shiny penny you wouldn't find the Hornby Railroad Virgin set now.  There have been two on e-bay since that post, both used and not cheap at £69.99 for the cheaper pair.  However, a little bit of Googling helped.....  when you Google search, something most people tend to do is read the first page or two then give up.  5 pages back revealed a NEW Hornby RR pack for £69.99 with free post at Bolton Model Centre.  One click or so later and the rather nice Lima based Virgin shells are now spare and my Blue/yellow Lima shells slipped straight on the DCC ready chassis.

 

Like all the Hornby remotored Lima models, they run very smoothly (I fitted a DCCconcepts 8 pin direct fit) and it pulls the same 8 car rake my Lima chassis pulled, very quietly too.  It's very easy to see why Hornby chose not to release their Railroad class 43 set again - it would have halved the sales of their Super detailed £200+ model! 

 

The moral to this brief tale is simple - if someone made it then there's bound to be one snuggled up in a storeroom somewhere still new and unsold. Look for model shops rather than dedicated model railway shops that everyone phones first, and don't give up?

 

The other moral is, keep to the era(s) you normally model.  Why?  Because it's all to easy to start to get into yet another one.  Anyone seen any bargain new mk3s?  Doh!

[sub39h]

Tbh if you're modelling blue grey, you might as well get the Lima ones. The Lima Mk3 details are more accurate than the Hornby ones (no door lock lights for example) and with some flush glazing look just as good. I have the super detail Hornby Swallow power cars, but all my Mk3s (with the exception of two) are Lima or Hornby's Lima derived coaches. 

 

Defo agree with you on the model shops bit. Found a lot of hard to find and bargain items at old dusty model shops. 

Edited April 9, 2015 by sub39h

[Steve Smith]

This is by far the most interesting thread on HSTs that I have found on the internet and I have used it a lot for reference.  I'm not trying to wake up this thread or looking for a response, but if anyone is contemplating a full length HST then my experience using two Lima power cars is documented here.   It represents a cross country set (so 2+7) and runs on a large permanently erected EM gauge club layout with a minimum radius of 3'6  - YMRG's South Junction. 

 

Some of the upgrades covered are:

- Lima power cars both ends re-motored using the diesel-trains can motors - no connection other than very satisfied customer.

- Conversion to EM gauge.

- Body mounted Kadee couplings (suspect this will limit the set to not much less than 3' 6" minimum radius).

- Constant level head and tail lights on a DC layout, with two dull yellow marker lights and a bright headlight (for day time running).

- Detailed Hornby cab interior (until the lights upgrade).

- 2+2 seating in standard class from Joueff Mk3 donors.

 

The EM conversion of the power cars replaced the crude traction tyred wheels with steel treaded wagon wheels (you can't see the holes once the etched disks are on).  In this form there is plenty of traction available despite additional weight in the carriages.  I only added this extra weight because one of the coaches (or more often one of it's neighbours) occasionally derailed.  Only when I tried to add the extra weight to that carriage did I find that there was no weight at all in it which explained a lot.  :-(

The set can complete the scale mile circuit of South Junction in 20 seconds so we'll call that a scale 180 mph and our youth section are not alone in giving it some welly now and again.  The HST has run at the last two Open Days and one guest who had his back to the layout commented how nice it was to hear the first power car, then the full complement of coaches then the second power car go by.  It's easily the most fun I've had in railway modelling - and it just keeps on giving!

 

 

Hope somebody finds this useful one day,

Steve

 

Edit:  Minor corrections to spelling etc..

Edited July 23, 2020 by Steve Smith
Added link to Youtube video

[Jaggzuk]

Not sure why I missed this thread whist doing my Hornby/Lima upgrade research?  So I will share my efforts  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106602-family-8x4-oo-layout-kadee-coupling-effort/?p=2493341

 

Key points for an 8x4 DCC layout HST upgrade:

 

• Used original Virgin Hornby Ringfield motor, but serviced, cleaned, added new bushes and added new traction tyres
• Swapped old headlight for a BlackCat HST lights unit; downside is no separate high intensity light, but I can cope without that.
• Modified light cluster with PVC fibre optic to get separate white and red light lenses to match the BlackCat unit.  The fibre optic reduced light bleed.  But still painted cab light area black.
• Painted light cluster exterior to match a general Virgin powercar look
• Painted up existing cab and added driver to offer a bit of detail.
• Added cab light

 

View showing the two separate lights

 

Added fibre optic to give seperate lights

 

BlackCat light unit fits in original recess with no mods required

 

The finished upgrade, a driver came later once I sourced one, but I will now look at the Bachmann drivers as they look very good.

 

The unit runs very well so far as 2+4.  I have managed to get hold of 2 separate Virgin coaches, the short length version with the separate painted window strip to match the original 2 coach HST Train set we first got.  Will aim to go for a 2+5 as that will be the limit of the single motor on our layouts gradients.