RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted March 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) At last - we have the final diesel missing linkBound to happen as we have still born projects on the work bench.So what would need to be done to make this model definitive? As with the Dapol Whizzo there is a huge pool of knowledge on here - might we be able to assist Bachmann in this project?So to kick off heres a starter for 10 of things that consistently differ from the 42:Inset marker lights on front of loco - and different pattern to 42Exhaust ports off set from centre line to postion above cantrailsCooler group grills - raised walkways (but beware D861 - one Swindon flush pattern)Shed code mounting plate on buffer beamAs built bodyside livery band and loco numbers set higher than 42NBL workplates on bogiesWeld line above sand boxes less prominentAnd variation within the class:Cab door rain stripsHeadcode panel ventillation holesCab step kick plate (D836)Common features to enhance the 42 too:Opening roof hatchesEasily changed headcode blindsSeperately applied windscreen wipersFoot step under nearside bufferImproved cab windows and framesAnd class 42 specific issues:Differing boiler port configuration between class members on centre roof portionAm sure there are more out there to be added - but many thanks for taking this one on Mr HubbardKind regardsPhilEdited and bumped to incorporate suggestions from others Edited March 17, 2018 by Phil Bullock 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Of course the first thing you need is a dialogue with Bachmann, not saying it won't happen but they didn't on a masterpiece like the Blue Pullman. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Opening roof hatches No thanks lets keep the gimmicks away from scale models. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted March 10, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2013 No thanks lets keep the gimmicks away from scale models. They opened on the real thing, so why wouldn't they open on a "scale" model? Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) When being painted the grey body side line was marked up using the cab front corner handrails as the height line. On brand new BR Green Warships Swindon used this 'line' as the top of the body side stripe, NBL used it as the bottom resulting in NBL locos body side stripe being a grey strip width higher up the body, along with the resulting higher cab side numbers. After Swindon repaints this issue was addressed. The Red / White marker lights on a 43 were identicle to a 52 and mounted in a slightly different place to the Swindon built locos' marker lights. If Bachmann go really detailed when they do the bogies the makers plate was a Diamond shape , the Swindon bogie was an oval makers plate. Edited March 10, 2013 by mark alden 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark alden Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 They opened on the real thing, so why wouldn't they open on a "scale" model? Mike. I think they would be so fideley and get broken off easily. What might be good is if Bachmann did a detail pack that had an 'opened hatch lid' that you could glue or slot in place. Wonder if Bachmann will laser scan either 821 or 832 and offer an updated 42 too?? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 (edited) Good opening gambit Phil! Another very subtle difference between the 42s and 43s is that on some 43s the weld line which runs along the bodyside level with the top of the sandbox access covers isn't as well defined as it is on others. And another subtlety is the steps below the cab door kick plates on 836 were different to the others, having side plates attached to them - there's a photo of this in the Bradford Barton Warship book. Mark - is it ok with you if I quote the livery details verbatim from 'Book Of The Warships' here, I was going to start a dedicated thread on it and I've sent Andy Y a PM about it too...? For only thirty three locos there are a surprising amount of possible livery variants / releases...! Edited March 10, 2013 by Rugd1022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1030western musketeer Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Lets see a complete retool with roof fans and better wipers. richard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted March 11, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2013 Thanks folks Mark Nidge and Richard - OP amended to reflect your comments plus also some from Mr TV via another route Phil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 11, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 11, 2013 I think they would be so fideley and get broken off easily. What might be good is if Bachmann did a detail pack that had an 'opened hatch lid' that you could glue or slot in place. Wonder if Bachmann will laser scan either 821 or 832 and offer an updated 42 too?? Bachmann said 'other things will be announced in the coming weeks' - the variants on this are high on my speculation list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted March 11, 2013 Share Posted March 11, 2013 (edited) Phil - regarding the older / existing tooling for the 42, overall it is still very good but I think the whole area around the front and side windows needs a rethink, if Dapol can do a nice thin window pillar on their 22 I think this is the way Bachmann should go too. Just refining the windscreen wipers isn't enough for me, although I do still like the model. Looking through those trusty old Bradford Bartons yet again yesterday, I noticed the weld line I mentioned previously on the NBLs is practically non existent on 858, and several others! In some photos you can just make it out on other 43s! Edited March 11, 2013 by Rugd1022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luke_stevens Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Hi Guys Do we think that there would be sufficient demand for Kernow to do some weathered ones? The weathered Westerns they are doing look magnificent and some of the Warships got pretty ropey by the end. Over to you CaptinKernow! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshleyH Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Looking at the fairly low pre-order price for these, around £76, I wonder if it is just going to be a revision to the existing Class 42 tooling? £76 in today's market seems low for a complete new toolingl, the proposed weathered Class 42 is around £80. So maybe we cannot expect something to the standard of the Dapol Western or Class 22, but here's hoping! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Andy W Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 15, 2013 But they wouldn't need a total retool would they - the body and some underframe details yes, but the class 42 chassis was upgraded to modern standards and would surely be reusable in a 43? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hi Guys Do we think that there would be sufficient demand for Kernow to do some weathered ones? The weathered Westerns they are doing look magnificent and some of the Warships got pretty ropey by the end. Over to you CaptinKernow! Hi Guys Do we think that there would be sufficient demand for Kernow to do some weathered ones? The weathered Westerns they are doing look magnificent and some of the Warships got pretty ropey by the end. Over to you CaptinKernow! "Captain Kernow" is not commercially connected with Kernow MRC to the best of my knowledge. Kernow MRC have a lot on their plate at the moment with many projects still at an early stage though a few have recently been delivered and others are expected this year. I would be interested indeed if KMRC were to commission weathered 43s but I'm not holding any breath on the matter. The announcement by Bachmann is very welcome here and not least because we are to get another green Warship - those have been thinner on the ground than the blue ones by far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 Do we think that there would be sufficient demand for Kernow to do some weathered ones? The weathered Westerns they are doing look magnificent and some of the Warships got pretty ropey by the end. Bachmann would require a production run of 504 weathered models, which is a lot more than each of the Dapol weathered Westerns for KMRC, and apparently Bachmann only agrees limited editions that it doesn't want to reserve for future standard production runs. Most locos now appear in weathered form at some stage, so I think it's a safe bet that Bachmann will do a weathered 43 or two in future years. Looking at the fairly low pre-order price for these, around £76, I wonder if it is just going to be a revision to the existing Class 42 tooling? £76 in today's market seems low for a complete new toolingl, the proposed weathered Class 42 is around £80. So maybe we cannot expect something to the standard of the Dapol Western or Class 22, but here's hoping! Bachmann has only recently upgraded the Class 42 chassis with lights and 21 pin DCC socket, so perhaps the Class 43 will be a new body only to fit on the existing chassis. That's my assumption anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 upgraded the Class 42 chassis with lights Altered rather than upgraded IMHO because the lights are very wrong. Both cabs and the leading headcode panel are lit up brilliantly when neither cab should be while in traffic and at best only a dull incandescent glow should emanate from the leading cab. The marker lights and headcode panels likewise should not resemble the Blackpool illuminations but be a very faint glow. Many modellers would be able to alter such things but they could and should be got right in the factory when we are asked to pay extra for having lighting installed and an "upgraded" model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) Altered rather than upgraded IMHO because the lights are very wrong. Both cabs and the leading headcode panel are lit up brilliantly when neither cab should be while in traffic and at best only a dull incandescent glow should emanate from the leading cab. The marker lights and headcode panels likewise should not resemble the Blackpool illuminations but be a very faint glow. Many modellers would be able to alter such things but they could and should be got right in the factory when we are asked to pay extra for having lighting installed and an "upgraded" model. I quite agree - the lights are too bright and would benefit if they could be dimmed or turned off individually, perhaps through decoder functions although I appreciate your (excellent) layout is DC so not quite so good for you. My concern, if that is the right word, is that Bachmann may not touch the chassis at this stage at least and the new Class 43 body will simply sit on the existing Class 42 chassis. EDIT - after all, how many versions of the Class 47 have we seen with progressive improvement in the bogies and frames and the cab windows of the early versions still have those awfully wrong rivets. So a chassis upgrade to cover the differences between the Class 42 and 43 may be something for the future, not the first releases. Edited March 15, 2013 by brushman47544 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 With no class 43 to refer to I share your concern that we may see no more than a re-issue of the current class 42 wearing class 43 numbers and names. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 (edited) With the prototype the best way to identify if a loco was a Class 42 or Class 43 was by it's number so in 4mm would anyone but the most fanatical modeller notice the detailed differences? Does anyone know which Class had more rivets? XF Edited March 15, 2013 by Xerces Fobe2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Personally I was surprised that this model was announced on two counts:- first; apart from what I would classify as minor differences externally on a class 43 (internally was another matter) to the 42, do these really merit another model? The existing class 42 pioneered by the wonderful Mainline company (we have a lot to thank them for, for their innovative thinking that changed the course of OO gauge) is still a really excellent model that can easily be modified to a NBL class 43. I'm a great Warship (and hydraulic) fan but I won't be buying yet another 4mm model of one. Secondly; why not take the opportunity to introduce something completely new, diesel and electric wise (like the nice looking class 85)? There are still lots of interesting locos that haven't been produced by the big manufacturers. What about one of the big electro diesels, classes 71 and 74, or the more exotic Raworth/Bullied Co Co (BR class 70)? What about some London Underground stock with 21st Century technology? Please, not another Warship folks! We have been swamped with hydraulics for years. Cheers Simon 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 15, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 15, 2013 Please, not another Warship folks! We have been swamped with hydraulics for years. I can see your side of the argument Simon but they do appear to be consistently good sellers. I'm not suggesting that other items wouldn't be but being honest I don't see the potential for numerous re-issues of (using your examples) the Raworth boosters or the class 71 / 74 types. Though I'm happy to be proved wrong if someone cares to take up the challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest oldlugger Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hello Rick, It's true what you say about these classes but I think interest in the SR has increased significantly since the arrival of good quality EMUs and I'm sure there would be enough interest in at least another ED apart from the 73. I'm sure the class 43 will look very nice, especially if the big B can sort out the Achillies heel of the existing class 42 around the lower front end fairing/coupling area. Cheers Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 oldlugger, on 15 Mar 2013 - 10:15, said: first; apart from what I would classify as minor differences externally on a class 43 (internally was another matter) to the 42, do these really merit another model? I think that's the point of why they are doing it. The ex-Mainline tooling is getting long in the tooth and can't be easily retooled to represent a 43 correctly. A newly tooled 43 could, with the correct slides in place later cover both the 43 and the 42. There's been a reasonable clamour for an upgraded Warship for a while, and this is a response to it. If the 43 sales are healthy enough, I suspect the replacement tooling slides will be produced that will allow a new 42 to be made to the same standard and the old Mainline one gracefully retired. It obviously will share some components with the upgraded chassis in the current Warship which will have helped reduce R&D time, and I suspect the lower RRP reflects that that the rest of the new tooling is designed around that, rather than the current bodged/altered tooling that may lead to manufacturing complications that a purposed designed tooling wouldn't have. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Please, not another Warship folks! We have been swamped with hydraulics for years. Cheers Simon Speak for yourself sunshine. you could say the same about Bulleid pacifics and the various products of Mr Gresley but do we complain ? With no class 43 to refer to I share your concern that we may see no more than a re-issue of the current class 42 wearing class 43 numbers and names.Is it not in the new tooling section of the announcement ? Doesn't that suggest it is a new tooling, unlike the class 24/1 with the headcode box, which Andy subsequently confirmed with Bachmann is to be a new tooling. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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