Bachmann 64xx Panniers

[David Bigcheeseplant]

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Is this what is to come?

Hawksworth Autocoach Thush and 64XX one of the early batch with curved bunker 6403 maybe

Edited March 11, 2013 by David Bigcheeseplant

[OnTheBranchline]

Beg ignorance but what are the noticeable between the 57xx/64xx/74xx/8750 Panniers?

[Ozexpatriate]

Beg ignorance but what are the noticeable between the 57xx/64xx/74xx/8750 Panniers?

I hoping this will answer your question - a beginners guide was referenced once already today, so perhaps you could start here? It was very helpful to me.

 

The 54xx / 64xx / 74xx are directly related to each other. 

 

The 57xx and 8750 are a different family.

 

After you've had a chance to look at Jim Champ's 'beginners' guide', I'm sure people would be happy to answer any more specific questions you might have.

Edited March 11, 2013 by Ozexpatriate

[Horsetan]

Beg ignorance but what are the noticeable between the 57xx/64xx/74xx/8750 Panniers?

 

The most obvious difference is that the 54/64/74xx (and the 16xx as well, by the way) have a flat top over the smokebox and boiler. Then there's the 7'4" x 7'4" symmetrical wheelbase (as opposed to the 7'3" x 8'3" of the 57/67/77/8750s)

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The 54XX is sort of a pannier tank version of a 14XX with an 0-6-0 wheelbase the  boiler having a drumhead smokebox with a narrow dome and parallel chimney, the 64XX & 74XX are just smaller wheeled versions, I really could do with a 54XX and hope that the Bachman 64XX is convertable to the 54XX

[Joseph_Pestell]

Presumably the "unrecorded station" is Plymouth in this shot of an unlined 6400 ? :

 

http://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p150609566/h420afc44#h420afc44

 

Probably two years premature, but there are colour photographs in "Western Steam in Colour" by Hugh Ballantyne (Jane's) on pp38-39 of a lined 6430 on a Yeovil "shuttle" and a lined 6400 at rest at Tavistock South (8/8/61) which might prove very useful for weathering purposes. The one of 6400 is an excellent close-up view and I think it is a cropped version of the photo thumbnail used on Bachmann's site 

I'm sure you are right that this is Plymouth (North Road) after rebuilding.

[buffalo]

Beg ignorance but what are the noticeable between the 57xx/64xx/74xx/8750 Panniers?

Broadly speaking, and as suggested by others above, they are two different lines of descent. The 54/64/74XX are descendents of the smaller Wolverhampton tanks. They were modernised versions of the 2021 which, in turn was a lengthened version of the 850. The 16XX were a later descenent in this line.

 

The 57XX/8750 are descendents of the Swindon large tanks, the 1813, 1854 and 2721 classes and in part also the Wolverhampton 645 class. The 94XX was the final class in this line.

 

...I really could do with a 54XX and hope that the Bachman 64XX is convertable to the 54XX

Yes, it rather depends on where you are modelling as the distributions were somewhat complementary. I could find a use for a Westbury 54XX. As far as I can tell, if the curved bunker/cab join is available and the splashers can be adapted for the larger wheels, then the only other change needed would be to move the buffers from the top to the bottom of the buffer beams to compensate for the 3¹/₄" greater height. Has anyone spotted any other differences?

 

Nick

[Horsetan]

Don't forget that Irwell Press will be releasing the last parts of its "Pannier Papers" series later this month, and the new instalments cover the 54/64/74xx (in Part 7), as well as the 1366s and 15xx (Part 6).

 

There should be some useful photos in those.....

[OldSutt]

Presumably the "unrecorded station" is Plymouth in this shot of an unlined 6400 ? :

 

http://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p150609566/h420afc44#h420afc44

 

Looks like North Rd plus SR(LMS type 2MT?) lurking with No 1 head signal for Plymouth Friary and Tavistock. The only thing bugging me is the row of houses in the background towards Mutley. I didn't realize that they were so tall or the land rose so quickly. Must be a trick of the lens/memory!

[Karhedron]

Presumably the "unrecorded station" is Plymouth in this shot of an unlined 6400 ? :

 

http://www.semaphoresandsteam.com/p150609566/h420afc44#h420afc44

Have a look at the larger version of the photo, it is definitely lined. The lining is easier to see on the cab-sides but present on the tanks too.

[buffalo]

Have a look at the larger version of the photo, it is definitely lined. The lining is easier to see on the cab-sides but present on the tanks too.

You may be right, but I'm not entirely convinced. Having copied, enlarged and fiddled with brightness and contrast, all I can see is something that looks like horizontal lining at the base of the cab side and what looks like a weld line along the side of the tank.

 

There may have been other, more recent, examples but RCTS (published in 1958) only mentions 6430 in unlined green in 1957 and 6438 in fully lined green the following year.

 

Nick

[TheSignalEngineer]

Looks like North Rd plus SR(LMS type 2MT?) lurking with No 1 head signal for Plymouth Friary and Tavistock. The only thing bugging me is the row of houses in the background towards Mutley. I didn't realize that they were so tall or the land rose so quickly. Must be a trick of the lens/memory!

Definintely there, exactly the same on a shot of mine c1968, but I think the office block overwhelmed the perspective after it was built.

[gwrrob]

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Is this what is to come?

Hawksworth Autocoach Thush and 64XX one of the early batch with curved bunker 6403 maybe

 

Geoff at Comet will be disappointed as he has that one in his range.Not been out that long either.

[Pannier Tank]

Geoff at Comet will be disappointed as he has that one in his range.Not been out that long either.

The Comet kit has been available for at least 6 years and the 247 version a little longer.

[gwrrob]

I've been browsing the very nice colour albums of Peter W Gray.

 

'Steam in Cornwall' page 78 has 6400 on a Saltash trip in 1959 with nicely weathered maroon autotrailers.

 

'Steam around Devon and Cornwall' page 76 also in 1959 has 6410 in a four trailer sandwich with 3 ex GWR and 1 BR trailer no.s W163W,W229W,W167W and W189W.

 

'Steam on West of England mainlines' page53 shews6419 on Forder viaduct in 1959

 

'Steam on West Country branch lines' page 78 shews 6435 on the Yeovil Town shuffle in 1964.

 

A very nice modellable photo is to be found in Wild Swans 'The Great Western in South Devon' page 190 . 6417 at  Plymouth NR in 1946 with a couple of trailers still in their wartime all brown livery. G W R on the tank too.

Edited March 14, 2013 by gwrrob

[The Stationmaster]

You may be right, but I'm not entirely convinced. Having copied, enlarged and fiddled with brightness and contrast, all I can see is something that looks like horizontal lining at the base of the cab side and what looks like a weld line along the side of the tank.

 

There may have been other, more recent, examples but RCTS (published in 1958) only mentions 6430 in unlined green in 1957 and 6438 in fully lined green the following year.

 

Nick

Right, not your favoured modelling period I know Nick but a spot of delving in the library (well the dining room bookshelves to be honest) has produced the following as definitely lined green on both the cabside sheets and the tanks  (the dates quoted are the date of the photo); all are late crest unless otherwise noted :

 

6400 April 1961,   6412 January 1959,    6416 May 1962,   6418 ?August 1958,    6421,early crest October 1961,    6430  August 1962.

 

6403 was ex-works in black, with early crest in August 1956.

[Captain Kernow]

Definintely there, exactly the same on a shot of mine c1968, but I think the office block overwhelmed the perspective after it was built.

Yes, there's no doubt about it, from the canopies and the background, it's unmistakable if you already know the location!

 

Simon Castens in The Titfield Thunderbolt bookshop in Bath - http://www.titfield.co.uk/ - confirmed to me yesterday that the Pannier Papers covering the 54/64/74XX classes will be out on the 27th or 28th March.

[Captain Kernow]

es, it rather depends on where you are modelling as the distributions were somewhat complementary. I could find a use for a Westbury 54XX. As far as I can tell, if the curved bunker/cab join is available and the splashers can be adapted for the larger wheels, then the only other change needed would be to move the buffers from the top to the bottom of the buffer beams to compensate for the 3¹/₄" greater height. Has anyone spotted any other differences?

I thought that the splashers on the 54XXs were slightly larger, to cater for the larger wheels - that is what you're saying, isn't it, Nick?

 

I also spotted that odd looking oil box or whatever, on a bracket on the side, as David Cheeseplant mentions earlier, but I've no idea what it's for, either! Did I see that in Russell Vol.2??

[buffalo]

Right, not your favoured modelling period I know Nick...

Quite so, Mike, though I did just post something about photos of Westerns on the B&NS   Thanks for adding those extra details.

 

I thought that the splashers on the 54XXs were slightly larger, to cater for the larger wheels - that is what you're saying, isn't it, Nick?

 

I also spotted that odd looking oil box or whatever, on a bracket on the side, as David Cheeseplant mentions earlier, but I've no idea what it's for, either! Did I see that in Russell Vol.2??

Yes, I was rather hoping that either we would get slightly oversized splashers that would take the larger wheel (at least in P4), or that a piece of plasticard wrapped around the top of the splasher together with some careful carving underneath would do the trick.

 

Russell's fig 501 shows the oiler and other box on 5403 and fig 507 shows it on 6403.

 

Nick

[Mikkel]

Meanwhile regarding the 74xx variant, here's a nice little collection of photos (except the first one). I especially like the shunting action. Note the shunter's wagon in one of them, another example of how the Bachmann range seems well considered.

 

Sone of the captions state that the 74xx were autofitted, but that's wrong, isn't it? Or have I misunderstood something?

 

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GWR_7400_Class

[buffalo]

...Sone of the captions state that the 74xx were autofitted, but that's wrong, isn't it? Or have I misunderstood something?...

Quite right, Mikkel. RCTS says "Nos 7400-49 were not autofitted..." though they do suggest that they sometimes stood in for failed 64XX, so it's possible they were seen pulling trailers.

 

Nick

 

ps. RCTS only covers up to 1958 but I've not seen anything about them being so fitted later.

Edited March 16, 2013 by buffalo

[Coach bogie]

As Nick states the 54/64/74XX have their parentage with Wolverhampton tanks. In February 1930 2021 class number 2080 was rebuilt with 5ft 2inch driving wheels as a trial. 5400, the prototype began its' life as 2021 class number 2062 built in 1899. It was withdrawn in August 1930, with the frames and other parts used in the 'new' construction and numbered 5400.

 

2080 was rebuilt back to a 2021 with 4ft 1inch wheels surviving until 1952.

 

The new Bachmann chassis will be an interesting starting point for a retro build back into a 2021(and just as you finish it Bachmann will announce a 2021)

 

Mike Wiltshire

[buffalo]

...5400, the prototype began its' life as 2021 class number 2062 built in 1899. It was withdrawn in August 1930, with the frames and other parts used in the 'new' construction and numbered 5400...

Yes, Mike, and just to complicate the story a little more, 5400 ran with 4'7¹/₂" wheels in November 1930 as a trial for the subsequent 64XX class.

Nick

[Taz]

Some great pictures there.

So the train below would consist of 2x diag A27, a diag A30 and a diag A38.

Would be a great service to model.

Have Bachmann announced which diagram of Hawksworth trailer they are going to produce? 

The old Airfix/Hornby autocoach can be made into a A30 with the Dart detailing kit.

Any ideas how to model a A27 though? Maybe shortening the Airfix model?

 

.....

'Steam around Devon and Cornwall' page 76 also in 1959 has 6410 in a four trailer sandwich with 3 ex GWR and 1 BR trailer no.s W163W,W229W,W167W and W189W.

 

.....

[gwrrob]

Some great pictures there.

So the train below would consist of 2x diag A27, a diag A30 and a diag A38.

Would be a great service to model.

Have Bachmann announced which diagram of Hawksworth trailer they are going to produce? 

 

Brian.The photo of what Bachmann have planned in their catalogue shews number W238W which was in lot 1766 of 1954.This is the A43 diagram.Comet do the kit for it.W229W in that photo was an A38 according to Harris book.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/

 

http://www.ehattons.com/60785/Bachmann_UK_39_575_BR_Hawksworth_Auto_Trailer_Crimson_Cream_Price_is_estimated_we_will_notify_you/StockDetail.aspx

Edited March 16, 2013 by gwrrob