BR London Midland Region 1950s -80s

[ArthurK]

PRESTON STATION

 

 

Moving forward to March 1963 we have the station pilot LMS "Jinty" No.47413 taking a break. In the left background is one of Barrow's Metrovics and to the right Ivatt 2-6-0 No. 46501.

 

In April 1966 Fairburn 2-6-4T takes a breather at the same spot as the 47413 in the picture above.

 

In September 1966 2096 again

 

 

Class 5 no. 44737 at the head of a southbound train.

 

Class 5 4-6-0 N0 45326.

 

A year later in September 1967 Another 2-6-4T, this time the Stanier version No. 42665.

 

Yet another 2-6-4T 24546, another Stanier version. Two young spotters wtched me take this and their comment was "why is he taking a photo of that?" Little did they realise that in a few months it would all be over, steam would be history.

[ArthurK]

Preston Station

The next batch are September 1967

 

Class 5 4-6-0 Number not decipherable but I suspect that it is 45326 which ae saw at rest earlier.

 

Class 8F No. 48408 trundles its way northbound with Soda Ash(?) hoppers probably with the same traffic that we saw at Arnside.

 

 

 

BR Brittania 4-6-2 No 70023 "Venus" allocated to Carlisle 12A on a Southbound train.

 

[Pannier Tank]

Fantastic memories; 48408 used to be a 1E Bletchley Engine; presumably transferred north just like 41222.

[Fat Controller]

Some lovely stuff there, Arthur- I like the shot of the blue and grey Mk2 coach next to the Black 5. Definitely one to upset the 'You'd never have seen..' brigade.

The Covhop traffic to and from the Cumbrian Coast was quite convoluted. Some carried soda ash FROM Northwich to Whitehaven (Albright and Wilso's Marchon works); others carried sodium tripolyphosphate from there TO places such as West Thurrock (Proctor and Gamble) and Warrington, Port Sunlight etc. There were other traffics carried in them from the region as well.

[Guest Phil]

Some lovely stuff there, Arthur.

 

Seconded - thanks again Arthur.

 

- I like the shot of the blue and grey Mk2 coach next to the Black 5. Definitely one to upset the 'You'd never have seen..' brigade.

The Covhop traffic to and from the Cumbrian Coast was quite convoluted. Some carried soda ash FROM Northwich to Whitehaven (Albright and Wilso's Marchon works); others carried sodium tripolyphosphate from there TO places such as West Thurrock (Proctor and Gamble) and Warrington, Port Sunlight etc. There were other traffics carried in them from the region as well.

 

Is it time to start another thread to try and persuade Roger along the Covhop route, or do we go RTR and campaign to Barwell and Margate ?

 

Either way they are distictive wagons which look equally great behind a black five, an 8F or an EE type 4

[Fat Controller]

Seconded - thanks again Arthur.

 

 

 

Is it time to start another thread to try and persuade Roger along the Covhop route, or do we go RTR and campaign to Barwell and Margate ?

 

Either way they are distictive wagons which look equally great behind a black five, an 8F or an EE type 4

It would be nice to have these available (and a decent BR Grain wagon), as they'd be pigs to scratch-build.

[ArthurK]

Preston

 

About a Mile South of Preston station a road leads under the WCML and then alongside the line. This day "Bahamas" was one its first trip after overhaul at the head of the SLS tour of the "Lakes & Fells". The date was 2nd April 1966. At this date the snow had started again but somehow I decided to go anyway and the next shots are the result. As you will note it was still snowing quite heavily at the time but I think that adds to the picture. "Bahamas" was held at the signal in the shots so that I had plenty of time to take more than one. When it did get the off I fired off a few more. In the opposite direction a Class 5 No 44897 heads a southbound train.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ArthurK]

PRESTON SKEW BRIDGE

 

A little further south from the photographs above the main road passes over the WCML at an acute angle. This is Skew Bridge, down in the cutting is the signalbox bearing that name. The next three shots are taken from the bridge. Once more it was a wet day.

 

In this first shot a Class 47 heads a train of Railfreight containers.

 

In the opposite direction a 9F No. 92017 makes a fine exhaust as it hauls a fast freight.

[eastwestdivide]

PRESTON SKEW BRIDGE

 

A little further south from the photographs above the main road passes over the WCML at an acute angle. This is Skew Bridge, down in the cutting is the signalbox bearing that name. The next three shots are taken from the bridge. Once more it was a wet day.

 

In this first shot a Class 47 heads a train of Railfreight containers.

...

Scuse my ignorance, but what's that coach doing between the 47 and the Freightliner wagons?

Zooming in close, I think I can see a "cross in a circle" condemned marking near the loco end.

[Fat Controller]

Scuse my ignorance, but what's that coach doing between the 47 and the Freightliner wagons?

Zooming in close, I think I can see a "cross in a circle" condemned marking near the loco end.

I suspect it's one of the ex-coaching stock vehicles which were used as brake vehicles (guard's vans)before ASLEF agreed to the guard riding in the rear cab of the locomotive- there had been a previous attempt to use a modified container as a 'caboose', but the ride was a bit lively, so redundant coaching stock was substituted. Most was displaced non-corridor stock, like the example shown, but there were also some Stanier full brakes used.

[bike2steam]

Excellent shots, not enough steam on this forum, let's have more.

[Guest Phil]

Excellent shots, not enough steam on this forum, let's have more.

 

I notice that wicked smiley, but to be fair, I think this period is so underrated for non steam interest. I'm fortunate because I like both, but the D&E only modeller must think these pics are manna from heaven. There aren't that many published pics of the era when freightliner trains conveyed ex passenger brakevans IMHO.

 

Arthur - your pics are facinating and keep on heading sarff towards the Midlands !!!!

 

Thanks again for sharing.

[eastwestdivide]

I suspect it's one of the ex-coaching stock vehicles which were used as brake vehicles (guard's vans)before ASLEF agreed to the guard riding in the rear cab of the locomotive- there had been a previous attempt to use a modified container as a 'caboose', but the ride was a bit lively, so redundant coaching stock was substituted. Most was displaced non-corridor stock, like the example shown, but there were also some Stanier full brakes used.

Aha, thanks. I'd heard of the modified containers, but not the coaches. Did they fit air brakes then? or just piped maybe, as presumably all the FL flats were air-braked from new.

It looks really incongruous, the "modern" container train with the "ancient" coach.

[Fat Controller]

Aha, thanks. I'd heard of the modified containers, but not the coaches. Did they fit air brakes then? or just piped maybe, as presumably all the FL flats were air-braked from new.

It looks really incongruous, the "modern" container train with the "ancient" coach.

They were air-braked. They were only used for a couple of years- I wonder if they were then used in the conversion programme for Carflats which was just starting?

[JohnH]

Just to add my thanks for posting these photos Arthur - superb modelling inspiration!

[Guest Phil]

Aha, thanks. I'd heard of the modified containers, but not the coaches. Did they fit air brakes then? or just piped maybe, as presumably all the FL flats were air-braked from new.

It looks really incongruous, the "modern" container train with the "ancient" coach.

 

They were air-braked. They were only used for a couple of years- I wonder if they were then used in the conversion programme for Carflats which was just starting?

 

 

 

Thats interesting. I thought the coaches were only fitted with a through pipe, setter and gauge. From the limited photo evidence I have seen, they were always marshalled next to the loco.

 

There are several thoughts which arise from this. How did the guard keep warm and boil water for his tea ?

 

IIRC - given that the 10' "cabooses that BR built for Freightliner guards had propane gas for heating and presuambly cooking, you'd expect their replacement to have similar facilities.

 

Perhaps the hauling loco steam heated the coach although, again no photo evidence of steam heating.

 

Perhaps the most surprising issue for me is that there doesn't seem to have been any use of prefitted air brake coaches in these trains. Up until Arthur's image, I've only ever seen BR Mk1 Non-corridor BSKs used (is that the correct decription ?) The vehicle in Arthur's image appears to be either GW/BR(WR) or LMS in origin.

 

There's a photograph of a demonstration run in February 1954 (admittedly a long time before) of BRCW built NSU51 on a test run between Birmingham and Banbury. NSU51 was basically an Austrialian single-cabbed A1A A1A diesel fitted with a Sulzer 6LDA28 engine and Crompton Parkinson electricals. What is significant is the loco and trains brakes were air, so the photograph shows a BR Mk1 SK or TSO painted Crimson and Cream, then what appear to be three sets of GER artic suburbans.

 

The caption reads "Commonwealth Railways No NSU51 on a demonstration run between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954. Note the LNER Gresley Quad-art coach set included in the train".

 

To me, the 2nd-6th vehicles appear to be a five-car (quint) set, and the remainder may also be.

 

So what I am saying is, unless there weren't any Westinghouse fitted single guards vehicles by 1964, I'm surprised BR didn't use them, instead of converting other vehicles, particular as BR were probably anticipating the passenger vehicles to be a temporary stopgap.

 

When did BR cease to use Westinghouse coaching stock from the pre-BR era ?

 

ly vehicles

[beast66606]

There is some nice signalling interest in these shots, this survived a few years after the end of steam so is useful for green diesel modellers (the signalling around Preston started dramatically changing from about 1971 when the PSB stage works started)

 

Very nice B)

[Fat Controller]

Thats interesting. I thought the coaches were only fitted with a through pipe, setter and gauge. From the limited photo evidence I have seen, they were always marshalled next to the loco.

 

There are several thoughts which arise from this. How did the guard keep warm and boil water for his tea ?

 

IIRC - given that the 10' "cabooses that BR built for Freightliner guards had propane gas for heating and presuambly cooking, you'd expect their replacement to have similar facilities.

 

Perhaps the hauling loco steam heated the coach although, again no photo evidence of steam heating.

 

Perhaps the most surprising issue for me is that there doesn't seem to have been any use of prefitted air brake coaches in these trains. Up until Arthur's image, I've only ever seen BR Mk1 Non-corridor BSKs used (is that the correct decription ?) The vehicle in Arthur's image appears to be either GW/BR(WR) or LMS in origin.

 

There's a photograph of a demonstration run in February 1954 (admittedly a long time before) of BRCW built NSU51 on a test run between Birmingham and Banbury. NSU51 was basically an Austrialian single-cabbed A1A A1A diesel fitted with a Sulzer 6LDA28 engine and Crompton Parkinson electricals. What is significant is the loco and trains brakes were air, so the photograph shows a BR Mk1 SK or TSO painted Crimson and Cream, then what appear to be three sets of GER artic suburbans.

 

The caption reads "Commonwealth Railways No NSU51 on a demonstration run between Birmingham and Banbury in February 1954. Note the LNER Gresley Quad-art coach set included in the train".

 

To me, the 2nd-6th vehicles appear to be a five-car (quint) set, and the remainder may also be.

 

So what I am saying is, unless there weren't any Westinghouse fitted single guards vehicles by 1964, I'm surprised BR didn't use them, instead of converting other vehicles, particular as BR were probably anticipating the passenger vehicles to be a temporary stopgap.

 

When did BR cease to use Westinghouse coaching stock from the pre-BR era ?

 

ly vehicles

I suspect that you're correct about the brake van being piped rather than braked (like the BR Standard 20t van), Phil.

Would they have fitted a propane bottle for heating/brewing up?

There was probably still some residual pre-Grouping air-braked stock, and pre-Nationalisation stock for the GE Section, as late as the early 1960s (Weren't some BR Standards fitted with Westinghouse pumps?), but I doubt that much of it would have been fit for prolonged running at 75 mph. It may well be, however, that BR salvaged the air-brake gear from some of this stock for use on the more modern vehicles.

[ArthurK]

Arthur - your pics are facinating and keep on heading sarff towards the Midlands !!!!

 

Thanks again for sharing.

 

Sorry I didn't get down to the Midland area railway scene very much. The best that I can offer is a couple at Rugby.

 

Oh that I had had a camera when I was at College in Loughborough in 1949-1952. Both LMS and LNER all around. I used to spend many lunch breaks on the road bridge at the Midland station, That way I got to see both at the same time!

[Guest Phil]

I suspect that you're correct about the brake van being piped rather than braked (like the BR Standard 20t van), Phil.

Would they have fitted a propane bottle for heating/brewing up?

 

I really don't know to be honest. The thought just came to me as I was writing it, and I doubt propane would be fitted - just a guess. Maybe an old stove and stove pipe but that would have been a helluva a draught up the stove pipe at 75mph !!!!

 

If the guards weren't prepared to accept riding in a plastic bubble on a wagon at 75mph, I can't imagine they'd have been too happy about riding in a freezing cold coach either.

 

There was probably still some residual pre-Grouping air-braked stock, and pre-Nationalisation stock for the GE Section, as late as the early 1960s (Weren't some BR Standards fitted with Westinghouse pumps?), but I doubt that much of it would have been fit for prolonged running at 75 mph. It may well be, however, that BR salvaged the air-brake gear from some of this stock for use on the more modern vehicles.

 

There were a couple of Std class 5s - 73030/031 IIRC ?

 

I was thinking of some old Scottish or GE stock, as I presume the old LBSC stuff had met it's maker by then. You are probably right about the suitability of rollicking around between a big diesel and quite a heavy freightliner train, which begs another question - what sort of tonnages were involved when Freightliner started up ? The 1980s would see trains normally formed of up to 20 vehicles equalling 64 SLUs. If each 20 foot box has 20 tons in it you could easily gross over 1700 tons. Those drawhooks on the Non Corridors probably never saw so much weight hanging off em !!!!

[ArthurK]

LOSTOCK HALL-BEE LANE

 

A little further south from Skew Bridge another road, Bee Lane, also crosses the main line. I visited this spot several times. A selection is shown below.

 

The first shots were taken in 1963. All the trains were in the hands of 4-6-0s. I do have a couple of others but the quality is to say the least awful.

 

LMS Jubilee No, 45574 " India". This was a long time Blackpool engine.

 

LMS Class 5 45189 with a short train. Is that an engineers coach behind the tender? It appears to have DB with other letters/numbers on the side.

 

Another Class 5 No, 45446 on goods duties. The bogie flat is loaded with pipes. I cannot recall that make up of the rest of the train.

 

Another occasion a little later this time not quite so wet.

Class 5 45092 with train of vans. Are these Banana vans? At that time Geest's were still unloading at Preston dock.

 

Moving forward to Sept 1963 another Class 5 No. 45108.

 

Yet another Class 5. Sorry I cannot decipher the number but it appears to be on a Blackpool Illuminations special. I photographed a lot of these at Kirkham.

 

One more Class 5 but this one is a little different - it has a name! It is 45156 "Ayrshire Yeomanry"

[Fat Controller]

The vans in the photo of 45092 are indeed banana vans- the 'yellow spot' marking above the number on the left-hand side can be made out.

[Leander]

Great shots Arthur.

 

The series of photos taken on the day in the snow of Bahamas are at Fowler Lane, Farington. The signals on the fast line give the location away. I guess you thought you'd been at Factory Lane, Lower Penwortham which is an underbridge - Fowler Lane is an overbridge and can be seen in the background on the going away shot of 45596.

 

I remember seeing the ex-LMS BTs in use as Guard's accommodation on the first Freightliner workings. As The Fat Controller wrote, ASLEF boycotted the use of the 'cabooses' and the coaches were used until BR and the Union agreed to letting guards ride in the back cabs of diesel locos. What would've have happened had the diesel failed and been replaced by a steam loco?

 

As an aside, did you get any photos of 66A EE Type 1s (class 20s) on the Coventry-Bathgate car trains around that time?

[Leander]

Just spotted the Fish Van at the front of the train hauled by 45574. It was probably part of a Fleetwood portion of a Blackpool North-Manchester working.

[eastwestdivide]

...

 

I remember seeing the ex-LMS BTs in use as Guard's accommodation on the first Freightliner workings. As The Fat Controller wrote, ASLEF boycotted the use of the 'cabooses' and the coaches were used until BR and the Union agreed to letting guards ride in the back cabs of diesel locos.

...

Ah, LMS Brake Third then. Looks like an improvement on the caboose container idea:

Photo of a caboose here (scroll down): http://www.yorkareagroup.co.uk/index.php?p=1_5_Wagon-Photos

And one apparently at the NRM (no photo): http://www.nrm.org.uk/OurCollection/LocomotivesAndRollingStock/CollectionItem.aspx?objid=1986-9396&pageNo=4