C&M Models commission Scotrail Mark 3s

[Mike at C&M]

Following the announcement by Graham Farish that they are to produce a Scotrail liveried Class 47/7 (372-245) and the Scotrail DBSO (374-651), C&M Models of Carlisle are delighted to announce that they have commissioned Dapol to produce the Scotrail liveried Mark 3 coaches which will therefore allow the complete train to be modelled.

 

The Mark 3 coaches are likely to be released in the first few weeks of 2014, which is estimated to be close to the time that the Farish 47/7 and DBSO will appear. Therefore, the whole train can be purchased at around the same time.

 

As yet, there are many details of the project still to be finalised, such as whether we do the First Open or the Composite Open, and we have a number of questions to ask which will assist us with the project, and these will follow on from this initial post. Any contribution, great or small will be much appreciated.

 

The coaches are going to come as a boxed set of 4. The price has yet to be fixed, but we will also be offering the option to purchase the 47/7 and DBSO from ourselves, plus light bars for the Mark 3 coaches.

Once we have prices for the coaches, then we shall start to accept firm orders.

 

If you would like to be kept up to date with the project, including notification that we are accepting orders, then you can either e-mail us at sales@candmmodels.co.uk or you can PM me via the forum, giving your e-mail address. We shall then set up an e-mail group to enable us to pass the information on to you.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

As mentioned above, we have a number of questions regarding the Scotrail liveried push-pull sets for which we would be grateful for further information

1. When did the de-classification of the 1^st (FO) to the 1^st/2^nd (CO) take place?
2. Earlier rakes seem to show a 6-coach set, whilst later ones seem to be more likely to be 5-coach sets. Is there is a reason for this, and was it official policy?
3. Did the de-classification and the reduction in the number of coaches within the set happen at the same time.
4. Also were the ‘FO’ coaches renumbered upon their partial declassification to the ‘CO’s?
5. In the Scotrail livery, what was the size of the coach numbers
6. We believe that there was branding within the end of coach windows. Does anyone have a good photograph of this?
7. Was there any modification of the Mark 3s when they were fitted for push-pull working.
8. What are the exact colours of the Scotrail livery. Are they the same as the InterCity executive livery, and if not what are they (RAL numbers). Also, what was the colour of the light blue stripe, RAL number would be useful here, too.
9. We believe that the coaches were Mark 3, rather than Mark 3A. Can someone please confirm this. I know that they were taken from the earlier batches of Mark 3s that were run on the WCML.

If anyone has any photographs which can be used as reference material, then we would be grateful if you could share this with us.

 

Thank you for your help, in advance.

[Arrachogaidh]

Excellent news. What an adventure.

 

Well done.

 

BUT PLEASE   the Livery is

ScotRail

as drummed into us by Chris Green!!

 

Edited March 18, 2013 by Arrachogaidh

[Flood]

 

1. When did the de-classification of the 1^st (FO) to the 1^st/2^nd (CO) take place?
2. Earlier rakes seem to show a 6-coach set, whilst later ones seem to be more likely to be 5-coach sets. Is there is a reason for this, and was it official policy?
3. Did the de-classification and the reduction in the number of coaches within the set happen at the same time.
4. Also were the ‘FO’ coaches renumbered upon their partial declassification to the ‘CO’s?
5. In the Scotrail livery, what was the size of the coach numbers
6. We believe that there was branding within the end of coach windows. Does anyone have a good photograph of this?
7. Was there any modification of the Mark 3s when they were fitted for push-pull working.
8. What are the exact colours of the Scotrail livery. Are they the same as the InterCity executive livery, and if not what are they (RAL numbers). Also, what was the colour of the light blue stripe, RAL number would be useful here, too.
9. We believe that the coaches were Mark 3, rather than Mark 3A. Can someone please confirm this. I know that they were taken from the earlier batches of Mark 3s that were run on the WCML.

1. 4 weeks ending 1st March 1986

2. I believe the rakes were reduced to 5 cars when the declassification took place but were increased back to 6 cars later due to overcrowding issues. The June 1987 Railway Observer states "Since 16th March the Edinburgh-Glasgow push-pull trains have been made up to six vehicles. There have been many complaints of overcrowding in the local press."

3. I think so but I will try to check.

4. Yes. 11005-10 and 11022 became 11905-10 and 11922.

5. Standard coach number size, 100mm

6. Please chat to Waverly West (Dave ) I'm sure he has an original one somewhere.

7. Not to the Mk3a stock. They used the lighting cables to send the push-pull signal from one end of the train to the other. This system was FDM (Frequency Division Multiplex) the precursor to TDM (Time Division Multiplex). The DBSO stock was converted to TDM when they moved to Anglia.

8. The colours are exactly the same as InterCity executive livery. I do not have any specifications for the light blue but it was exactly the same shade as provincial light blue if that is of any help.

9. Mark 3 coaches were the HST stock. The push-pull coaches were as all the original loco hauled stock and were classified as Mark 3A.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Flood

[Mike at C&M]

Flood and Arrachogaidh,

Many thanks for all the information. It is gratefully received.

 

In all the years spent on Carlisle station, I never realised that the multitude of coaches passing in front of me were designated Mark 3A.

 

Mike

Edited March 18, 2013 by 87029

[mjkerr]

1
It was actually a conversion, removing four bays of seats from the FO and inserting (then) Second Class seats
A swing door was also fitted between the two classes
However, I have been struggling to find photos of the interior to confirm on which sides the seats were in relation to Second Class and the swing door
11005 and 11006 (from what I can work out) were the only two FO in ScotRail livery before the conversion work took place

6
I assume you are referring to the relaunch blue and yellow "ScotRail Express" vinyls applied to the toilet windows
Not all Mark 3A coaches had these

7
Yes, but it was an internal modification and would not be noticeable
However, the FO (47F) and CO (23F) had one less First Class seat

8
The earlier ScotRail blue was trialled on three coaches (two TSO and one Sleeper) and simply used Rail Blue, RailMatch 207
I managed to confirm this by taking close up photos, and then holding them up to a newly painted Class 47 in Large Logo Blue at the time
The traditional Scottish Blue was then used, RailMatch 208, which ironically then became Provincial Blue

Formations with FO :
DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO
Formations with CO :
DBSO-CO-TSO-TSO-TSO
However, one set was spare and so allocated to primarily Aberdeen services :
DBSO-CO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO

[mjkerr]

Just doing the maths
I currently have seven Farish Mark 3A coaches in ScotRail livery, six TSO and one CO, which will soon increase to nine (seven TSO and two CO)

I do hope a bulk discount is available...

[Mike at C&M]

Westie7 has sent me a 'PM' which states that I should get my hands on a copy of Rail Express for June 2007. Could anyone please let me have a copy or scan of the relevant article, please.

 

Thanks to 'mjkerr' for the additional info. As for a bulk discount..... maybe!

[Flood]

The first class seats were at the end where there is a small square cut-out in the module casing i.e. the left hand end in this shot (http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h17a8a710#h17a8a710). You can see the antimacassars on the first class seats and you can also see the seat ends in second class where they do not line up with the windows (so long as you click on the photo to increase the size).

 

Again in this shot (http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h17a8a710#h18499c36) the second class seat ends can be clearly seen.

 

Whilst the rakes were supposed to be increased back to 6 cars in March 1987 (see my amendment above) there were many occasions when rakes still ran one coach short.

 

 

From my notes in July 1985 certainly 11005, 6, 7, 9 and 10 received ScotRail livery as full firsts. I'm pretty sure that they all did as the renumbering did not occur until March 1986.

Edited March 18, 2013 by Flood

[mjkerr]

Yes, I had previously noted which end retained the First Class seats
However, I have been struggling to work out on which side the single seats are...

The Second Class are just normal formation which was in use by then (half of the revised 76S)

 

The first class seats were at the end where there is a small square cut-out in the module casing i.e. the left hand end in this shot (http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p520092474/h17a8a710#h17a8a710). You can see the antimacassars on the first class seats and you can also see the seat ends in second class where they do not line up with the windows (so long as you click on the photo to increase the size).

[Revolution Ben]

Hello C&M,

 

I think this is great news, and I hope it proves successful for you.

 

In terms of the colour on the coaches, I would be focussed on ensuring that, as best as you can manage, your vehicles match the colours that Farish use on their 47/7s and DBSO so they all look the same.  Given the effects of scale, weathering etc I think having the rake appear uniform is more important than being able to say that your "blue" is more correct than the Farish "blue, or whatever.  I suggest it will drive sales when people see the whole train coupled together and it looks "right."

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Flood]

Yes, I had previously noted which end retained the First Class seats

However, I have been struggling to work out on which side the single seats are...

The Second Class are just normal formation which was in use by then (half of the revised 76S)

 

How about reading your post from June 2011!   http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/25436-mk3-co-ex-fo-stock-photos-needed/?p=413410

 

It appears that we've been through this conversation before. I'm pretty sure that the first class seats were not moved so they stayed as they were built, single seats towards the cutout side, twin seats on the plain side. See also: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/7620730790/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Edited March 18, 2013 by Flood

[Mike at C&M]

Flood,

Thank you for posting the link to the previous thread about the 'CO'.

 

Ben A,

A good point about the livery matching between the Dapol and Farish items. With the Bachmann ScotRail 47.710 already being available, would you think it reasonable that they would stick with the that colour of blue for the 'N' Gauge model? If so, then we already have a colour match.

[Revolution Ben]

Hi there,

 

I was tempted to comment in my previous post that I'd just send Dapol a Bachmann model - their OO ScotRail 47 say - and tell them to copy the colours on that - even though it might make the purists wince!

 

The problem is that there is no guarantee that Bachmann will maintain the colours.  Has there been any negative feedback on the colours of the OO model?  Perhaps your Bachmann rep might be able to help confirm whether the Farish models will be to the same colour specs?

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Mike at C&M]

Ben A.,

Thank you for the suggestion about liasing with Bachmann on the colours. Luckily, I am blessed with having an excellent Bachmann rep., and indeed there has been some input from their side too for this project.

 

After all, if people are aware that the full train is available, rather than just the Farish items, they may therefore be more willing to buy the 47/7s and DBSOs, thus increasing the sales of the relevant Farish items as well.

[shanks522]

Although i don't plan on purchasing either the loco or coaching stock i think this is a great commission and i hope both Dapol, Farish and CM models do well out of this.

 

Graham.

[Guest jim s-w]

If you go to my workbench and scroll to the bottom there's some info on the differences of mk3 coaches

 

http://www.p4newstreet.com/category/workbench

 

Hth

 

Jim

[Guest jim s-w]

Edit - I think I have the Ral colours for ScotRail livery somewhere

[Mike at C&M]

Cheers, Jim. And thank you for the link.

[mjkerr]

It appears that we've been through this conversation before. I'm pretty sure that the first class seats were not moved so they stayed as they were built, single seats towards the cutout side, twin seats on the plain side. See also: http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/7620730790/sizes/o/in/photostream/

Your final reply in that thread appears to have been overlooked and confirms the arrangement I have installed into my CO

It's not a disaster if it is wrong as the other half of the seats can used, or on the Farish coach the underframe turned round

[Bob Reid]

Good announcement.  By far the hardest part for C&M / Dapol to get over is the lack of a Mk3a in the range at present - I'm not convinced the HST roof and BR WSP arrangement on Dapol Model TF/TS at the moment would cut it - here's hoping they can resolve it 

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi Mike (et all)

 

Extremely interesting news ref the ScotRail MK3 coach commission.....I'll be looking forward to seeing these in the flesh. I hope Dapol will go the extra mile in responding to the faith of a small retailer by retooling the roof* and providing a sparklingly accurate (wrt Farish matching) paint job with decals in the correct position, in the correct font, at the correct size.

 

Personally, I would go for the CO option instead of a TF as this fits better with your 4 coach set plans and also provides a different option to the previously released Farish ScotRail coaches.

 

* I have seen the previous comments ref roof outlines and have seen Dave's ' challenge' of tooling costings....but I really think that if Dapol retool the roof for this commission and then make spares available, then the costs could be reasonable.....of course, I am not an economist and have no sight of Dapol's project budget!!!

 

Later,

Stu in OAKN.

[Flood]

Hopefully Dapol will decide to re-tool the roof as this will then give them the option of 40 years (and counting) of liveries.

 

The original HST trailers had Roevac vents and not plenum chambers back in 1973 and Greater Anglia are still using Mk3a stock to this day. I would have thought that the range of liveries available to present to the public could generate enough sales to justify any re-tool costs.

[43179]

Dare i say it , but a retooled roof for the mk3 could also correct the profile of the roof , as well as cater for the different vents. Would improve the appearance of the models no end 

 

 

Jon  

[Guest jim s-w]

Cheers, Jim. And thank you for the link.

I could have sworn I did the livery mark up for the ScotRail Heljan 47 but it seems not, means I don't have the RAL colours after all, sorry.

 

Jim

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi all,

 

Not the best pic, but the early design of roof vent is visible.

http://www.reallygoodtrains.co.uk/images/457.jpg

With due credit to the original photographer.

 

Later,

Stu in OAKN.