C&M Models commission Scotrail Mark 3s

[Mike at C&M]

Thank to everyone who has supplied me with information. We have made quick progress with collating it all, and following a meeting with DapolDave several days ago, the specification is coming together nicely.

 

The major development is that we are now embracing the blue/grey liveried coaches which ran between Glasgow and Edinburgh from the introduction of the 47/7s up until their repainting into ScotRail colours. The coaches will have 'SC' prefixes to their numbers, and this also allows the coaches to be used within WCML rakes as they continued to be used here until they were called into use for the push-pull services.

    The coaches modelled will be an 'FO' plus 3 x 'SO', in a 4-coach set.

    If anyone is able to supply me with details of the coach numbers within the Blue/Grey liveried coach formations, I would be very grateful. This can be done by sending me a 'PM'

 

The decision has been made to stick with the original roof moulding that Dapol have used on their Mark 3 coaches. This has been discussed on the thread concerning Mark 3 coaches, and the additional costs involved in setting up for this project would push the cost up too far. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/58651-mk3-coach-production/page-6 post#136.

 

For the ScotRail liveried set, we will be modelling the declassfied 'CO' coach. The seating moulding will be that of a 1st Class coach, but we should be able to supply the seating moulding of the 2nd Class coach as a separate item for those who wish to assemble the differing seat patterns in either half of the coach.

 

We are still accepting names and e-mail addresses from anyone who is interested in being added to our e-mailing list. Again, a 'PM' will suffice, or an e-mail to sales@candmmodels.co.uk

[bennyboy]

I for one am glad to hear that you are also producing the blue/grey coaches as the Scotrail liveried ones are a bit too late for the period that I model.

[Bomag]

I managed to miss this as I was over in Poland. On first reading I thought great but on second thought the blue stripe version is a bit pointless as a four car pack - if it was a couple of two coach packs so we could buy one pack with a CO/TSO and two packs with TSO*2 you could have had my money now. I will have to see the position when they are released.

[Mike at C&M]

Bomag,

Release of the models is not envisaged until early 2014, so there is planty of time to save up for a set. By doing the coaches within a 4-coach boxed set, it allows us to keep the price slightly lower for the 4 coaches.

[Bob Reid]

Not reading the thread correctly I hadn't realised that they were not being supplied singly.  Wouldn't the price fall ever so slightly lower by offering then a five vehicle boxed set and therefore allowing the modelling of a prototypically correct six-car set 4 x TSO & 1 x FO - i.e. prior to the CO conversions (without someone having to buy another set) especially now that the blu&grey vehicles are being produced?  

 

Pity about the roof (and I presume, the bogies) I fear it's an opportunity lost, especially if the blue & grey vehicles were offered un-numbered... but I'm sure there may be folk happy with the compromise.

[gelboy45]

This is excellent news.

 

Now what we need from manufacturers is more passenger stock with Scottish numbers. Please.

 

Gerry

[Dr Al]

What will the production run on these be - 100 units?

 

Cheers,
Alan

[mjkerr]

Darn, as I have just completed a second rake of Mark 3A coaches in blue/grey livery (as these are still available)

DBSO-FO-TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO x 2

However, the box set only has three TSO, where-as the ScotRail sets operated with four TSO
If you need the coach numbers I have a full list

Waiting for the ScotRail livery boxset with anticipation, as you know...
I had only planned for one set in Blue/Grey livery to run with one Class 47/7 in Large Logo Blue, but the second set will run with one Class 47/7 in BR Blue (although not strictly accurate for 1986)

[Mike at C&M]

The Blue/Grey 4-coach set is governed by the standard packaging size.

 

Like anyone else, I would love to get everything 110% accurate, but for relatively short runs (and I won't say how many of each there are, but it is substantially less than the number of 47/7s and DBSOs being produced), we have to stick with the parameters that the manufacturer have available. Otherwise, cost and price soon spiral to a level way beyond what people can afford.

[Bob Reid]

It's not about the extra 10% - 100% would do fine.....

 

Clearly though costs figures large in the equation.  Is it not possible to release them as individual vehicles or does that (packaging as singles as opposed to in fours) in itself create (larger) cost issues?

[westie7]

Im sure someone with deep pockets will be buying extra sets to split them and allow those who wish four TSO to do so.

Or.. three folk get together buy a set, three each and toss for the FO

[Mike at C&M]

..... or buy a single loco-hauled blue/grey Mark 3 and change the prefix from 'M' to 'SC'

[Bomag]

..... or buy a single loco-hauled blue/grey Mark 3 and change the prefix from 'M' to 'SC'

 

 

B/G isn't the problem I have already got a set of b/g SC prefix coaches, I mentioned the blue striped SoctRail livery where will be no single vehicles available

[valeofyork]

B/G isn't the problem I have already got a set of b/g SC prefix coaches, I mentioned the blue striped SoctRail livery where will be no single vehicles available

 

Didn't they often run as 5-coach sets, including the DBSO, when in this livery?

[mjkerr]

..... or buy a single loco-hauled blue/grey Mark 3 and change the prefix from 'M' to 'SC'

That is what I am currently doing, with a complete set of transfers being printed for me

[mjkerr]

Didn't they often run as 5-coach sets, including the DBSO, when in this livery?

Only one set each day was compiled as a 5 coach set, with one additional TSO and equally that additinal TSO was sometimes anything that was available

This set would be allocated to the morning Glasgow QS - Aberdeen, which provided additional capacity to the evening Aberdeen - Glasgow QS service (often useful Tuesday and Wednesday evenings)

On its next return to Cowlairs the additional TSO would be removed, and then swapped to another set, along with the 47/7

Edited March 28, 2013 by mjkerr

[valeofyork]

Only one set each day was compiled as a 5 coach set, with one additional TSO and equally that additinal TSO was sometimes anything that was available

This set would be allocated to the morning Glasgow QS - Aberdeen, which provided additional capacity to the evening Aberdeen - Glasgow QS service (often useful Tuesday and Wednesday evenings)

On its next return to Cowlairs the additional TSO would be removed, and then swapped to another set, along with the 47/7

 

Isn't that a six-coach set, including the DBSO (i.e. five Mk3s)? My understanding is that the formation of most sets was five carriages - the DBSO, 3xMk3a TSO and 1xMk3a CO (not sure which end of the set the CO usually was). Is this not correct?

 

If this is right, then the 4-coach set as proposed, plus the DBSO and 47, is the correct formation for most of the trains and an additional TSO is not required.

[scruff]

I can't find the link right now but a couple of days ago I found a picture of a class 55 deltic with a scratch set of blue/grey Sc prefixed mk3's on an edinburgh-Kings cross additional at York. When I find it again i will post the link here.

 

Looks like you may have a bigger market than you first thought 87029!

 

Thats two sets I need now.. My poor wallet...

 

Cheers

Mark

 

Edit: found the link to photo

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3861945278/

 

And the loco is 55005... the new Farish model!

Edited March 29, 2013 by scruff

[mjkerr]

Isn't that a six-coach set, including the DBSO (i.e. five Mk3s)? My understanding is that the formation of most sets was five carriages - the DBSO, 3xMk3a TSO and 1xMk3a CO (not sure which end of the set the CO usually was). Is this not correct?

 

If this is right, then the 4-coach set as proposed, plus the DBSO and 47, is the correct formation for most of the trains and an additional TSO is not required.

Apologies, quite right, I had discounted the DBSO and was counting the Mark 3A coaches only

 

The four coach set (pack) being offered (in ScotRail stripe livery) isn't quite correct though

It is going to be released with a FO, so it should have four TSO

If it was released with a CO, then it would correctly have three TSO

A compromise is being made, with the spare TSO seating being made available

Edited March 29, 2013 by mjkerr

[mjkerr]

I can't find the link right now but a couple of days ago I found a picture of a class 55 deltic with a scratch set of blue/grey Sc prefixed mk3's on an edinburgh-Kings cross additional at York. When I find it again i will post the link here

Yes, that is correct

I always understood it that the initial batch of TSO were allocated to Scotland, and it was quite similar with the FO

However, as the Class 47/7 locos and DBSO were not ready they were used to strengthen East Coast services for a few months

One further full rake was added and so Craigentinny received quite a few TSO out of sequence

[valeofyork]

Apologies, quite right, I had discounted the DBSO and was counting the Mark 3A coaches only

 

The four coach set (pack) being offered (in ScotRail stripe livery) isn't quite correct though

It is going to be released with a FO, so it should have four TSO

If it was released with a CO, then it would correctly have three TSO

A compromise is being made, with the spare TSO seating being made available

 

From the description posted earlier in the thread, it sounds like it will be the same as with the TCC in the Crosscountry HST - i.e. the livery and numbering correct (yellow stripe along the top of only the first-class part of the coach), but with a standard first-class interior. With a spare standard-class interior, it will be possible to shorten both interior parts to the correct lengths in order to give the correct composite interior.

[Mike at C&M]

The ScotRail stripe set will be issued with the following spec. for the coach with 1st Class.

 

On the outside, it will be marked up as a 'CO', so the yellow stripe will run half way down the coach, and the '1' on the coach doors will be at one end only. the number will be in the 119XX series.

However, we then fall back on to the cost constraints of setting up a coach seat moulding for just 200 coaches. So, the 'CO' will come supplied with all 1st Class seating fitted, but we will be able to offer a 2nd class seating moulding for those who wish to 'cut and shut' the two mouldings to give a more accurate interior.

 

Nice find with the shot of 55.005 at York. I knew of specials that ran up to Oban with Mark 3s and 55.021 (I think), but never was aware of there even having been loco-hauled Mark 3s on the ECML.

[valeofyork]

Nice find with the shot of 55.005 at York. I knew of specials that ran up to Oban with Mark 3s and 55.021 (I think), but never was aware of there even having been loco-hauled Mark 3s on the ECML.

 

Oban - 23rd August 1981, and 55021 as you say. The stock details from the six bells junction website are: 12018+12007+12051+12015+1857+12025+11008+9703

i.e. a push-pull set with a Mk1 buffet inserted in the middle

[Bob Reid]

I think you are getting the services & numbers mixed up here...

 

The correct 1979 formation for the Glasgow-Edinburgh diagrams (501-506) was six vehicles, not five. (in six sets) As TSO-TSO-TSO-TSO-FO-DBSO in that order and with the DBSO leading to Glasgow. These remained as six vehicle sets for the next six years.  These were dedicated vehicles modified specifically for the E&G's and were not swapped out during that time. Following the conversion of the  FO's to CO in 1985 and also with the introduction of the 47/7 sets to the Glasgow-Aberdeen, the E&G's ran for two years with the formation reduced by one TSO ( of course the FO now as a CO i.e.TSO-TSO-TSO-FO-DBSO) see Graham's (Flood's) notes earlier in the thread but was in 1987 put back up to six vehicles.  

 

We received almost all of the Mk3 vehicles (TSO's & FO's) over three? weekends in 1979 (oh for copies of my time sheets and I'd have accurate dates) from the LMR however we were given a fair number of sub-standard vehicles, some quite obviously unsuitable for a new service due to some early Mk3 modifications and the overall condition which was to say the least very poor, and were all subsequently returned/swapped out before we could commission the sets.  (the LM were very reluctant to release any of these vehicles in the first place).  During September 79' and perhaps only that once, the maintenance spare set was used on the ECML in substitution for a failed HST which is what that photo depicts so runs down the ECML were to say the least - rare. (Though we did run two days on brake tests between Craigentinny and Berwick)! though I didn't see too many photographers about)!  The delay to the introduction was as a result of late delivery of the DBSO's (they had been completed but were undergoing two-wire control trials with the 47/7's) 

[mjkerr]

The ScotRail stripe set will be issued with the following spec. for the coach with 1st Class.

 

On the outside, it will be marked up as a 'CO', so the yellow stripe will run half way down the coach, and the '1' on the coach doors will be at one end only. the number will be in the 119XX series.

However, we then fall back on to the cost constraints of setting up a coach seat moulding for just 200 coaches. So, the 'CO' will come supplied with all 1st Class seating fitted, but we will be able to offer a 2nd class seating moulding for those who wish to 'cut and shut' the two mouldings to give a more accurate interior.

The initial reply was that it would be a FO

As it will be offered as a CO, please ensure the correct ends are setup as Standard / First Class