valeofyork Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 The initial reply was that it would be a FO As it will be offered as a CO, please ensure the correct ends are setup as Standard / First Class Err, didn't he explain in the post you quoted that this wasn't financially viable? Sometimes we have to accept compromises due to tooling costs (.e.g the wrong cooler groups on some of the Dapol HST power cars, wrong roof vents on loco-hauled Mk3s, incorrect Window arrangement in WSMR buffet). At the end of the day, we can't expect the manufacturer / person who commissions the model to make it at a loss! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) Mike, I'm sure 87029 made it clear from that posting that it wasn't possible (I assume) within the financial constraints of the project - otherwise we'd have the correct roof and bogies... splitting two seat moulding shouldn't be that difficult. (Edit) apologies VoY - cross/similar posting Edited March 29, 2013 by Bob-65b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 (edited) The first post advised it would externally be a FOThe latest post now advises it will externally be a COI am only simply requesting to ensure the correct ends are setup as Standard / First Class, as the underframe is different at each endIt's easy enough to swap the underframe aound on a Farish Mark 3, but I don't know how easy it is to swap the underframe around on the Dapol Mark 3 FO Edited March 29, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 Mike - if no one particularly notices the wrong roof and bogies in 'N' gauge I'm not sure anyone would notice where the brake module is - however if it helps why not! Note that irrespective of vehicle type - FO/CO or TSO that issue occurs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
valeofyork Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 The first post advised it would externally be a FO The latest post now advises it will externally be a CO I am only simply requesting to ensure the correct ends are setup as Standard / First Class, as the underframe is different at each end It's easy enough to swap the underframe aound on a Farish Mark 3, but I don't know how easy it is to swap the underframe around on the Dapol Mark 3 FO My understanding from the postings is FO in blue/grey set, CO in Scotrail version of Intercity set. The COs were converted from (and subsequently back into) FOs - it's effectively just changing some of the interior. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 I have earlier posts that advise the CO was not possible, so would be released as a FOHowever, as this has now been confirmed as a CO this presents other challenges to ensure the interior is correctThis will become very obvious when light bars are fitted Mike My username is MJKERR, there is no Mike involved... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 29, 2013 Share Posted March 29, 2013 One minute you appear to be talking about the interiors and the next underframes and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if 87029 isn't quite confused as well now. The orientation of both makes no difference if it's a CO,FO or TSO they are all either the right way round or not. Perhaps you could point me to just where 87029 said that the CO's were not being produced as I can't find it - though that's not to say it doesn't exist. p.s. Sorry if you are offended by not calling you by your username and using what I mistakenly thought was your real name Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted March 29, 2013 Author Share Posted March 29, 2013 When the project was first suggested, we were unsure as to whether we would be doing the 'FO' or 'CO' in the ScotRail colours, but from the information received, we subsequently decided the 'CO' was the better option. This may explain why confusion has arisen. As for the modelling the 'CO' the correct way round, if someone can tell me what I need to look for on the underframe of the Mark 3 chassis as currently modelled by Dapol, and how this relates to the set up of 1st and 2nd class setup on the 'CO', then I can mention this as I compile the exact specification of the coaches over the coming weeks. Many thanks to all for their continuing help. Mike 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Mike, On the Second, First and Composite Open's, There's a small rectangular recess on the Dapol underframe at one end and on one side (the non-toilet side) only - well at least it should be there! representing the Brake Isolation valve / part of the brake module. That should be the No.2 - (non-control) End. in the CO conversion, that end remained as built when it was an FO (seats 1-12 (First Class) the other end, the No.1 (control End) was converted over to second class (seats 13-31) Basically the (No.2) end with the Yellow (1st class) designation stripe should be at the same end as the small recess in the underframe i.e. at the opposite end from the second class portion.... .. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) One minute you appear to be talking about the interiors and the next underframes and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if 87029 isn't quite confused as well now. The orientation of both makes no difference if it's a CO,FO or TSO they are all either the right way round or not. The orientation does matter, as has previously been pointed out Reference photos have also been supplied to show the difference This orientation then determines the seating layout for the 1+2 at the First Class end, if the other end is used the orientation is incorrect and as a consequence the dividing door would not fit On a more positive note, I have now fitted the light bars to 11 of the 13 Mark 3 coaches I have I paid particular attention to the FO The end with the light bar socket is the half which need to be removed and declassified Equally, the underframe can be swapped round (if you accidently declassify the wrong) but this is extremely time consuming Externally : Therefore for a CO the yellow stripe and number 1 on the doors, is the opposite end from the light bar socket To represent a FO the yellow stripe and number 1 on the doors would need to applied at the same end as the light bar Internally : To modify the seating, half of the seats at the light bar socket end need to be removed with space between the two inserts for the dividing door I am currently looking for methods to recreate the dividing door Sadly I am having difficulty sourcing reference photos However, it was very basic and the frames were aligned with the edges of the First Class seats, ie off-set to one side Edited March 30, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Looking at the photos on hattons website: http://www.ehattons.com/25449/Dapol_NC051a_Mk3_Coach_First_Class_FO_in_Virgin_Trains_livery_without_buffers/StockDetail.aspx the Dapol Mk3 does have different module mouldings on each side (I don't model in N so I don't own any myself). Mike (87029) has stated (post #29) that the CO will have a first class interior but they will be able to offer a second class one for anyone wanting to cut and shut. So long as the '1' is on the door at the left hand end of the first photo on hattons website (along with the half yellow stripe) then the exterior will be correct (within financial constraints). As stated by Bob in post #54 the vast majority of the public will not notice this detail but at least we will know the correct end has been chosen for 1st. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) The orientation does matter, as has previously been pointed out Reference photos have also been supplied to show the difference This orientation then determines the seating layout for the 1+2 at the First Class end, if the other end is used the orientation is incorrect and as a consequence the dividing door would not fit Mkerr - You've totally lost me with that first part. Read the post above your one and follow the logic. Anyway It's clear we're on the same page now. (Edit to remove the last, not really needed bit). Edited March 31, 2013 by Bob-65b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusDe Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 Maybe it is the mists of time playing havoc with my memory, but didn't the CO retain first class seating spacing that lined up with the windows in second class, at least for a time? I seem to remember I always sought out that part of the train for the extra legroom and better view out the window on my drinking trips to Edinburgh. But maybe thats just me getting old, *sigh*... Angus PS great project and something I hope to buying! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 2, 2013 Share Posted April 2, 2013 (edited) Maybe it is the mists of time playing havoc with my memory, but didn't the CO retain first class seating spacing that lined up with the windows in second class, at least for a time? I seem to remember I always sought out that part of the train for the extra legroom and better view out the window on my drinking trips to Edinburgh. The CO had exactly the same seating arrangement as the other TSO However the seats were in better condition than the other TSO operated by ScotRail, as they were unrefurbished The CO was supposed to have high-density (76 seats in a TSO) but retained the traditional format (72 seats in a TSO) This difference became noticeable once all the WCML TSO were refurbished Although the seats were newer, they were to the revised 76 capacity, and the ScotRail unefurbished seats were starting to show their age albeit with the lower 72 capacity Edited April 2, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47475 Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 A very welcome announcement and a very interesting (and educational!) thread. I have the ScotRail 47/7 Push-Pull set that is featured on the CJM website with 47713, but am seriously thinking about adding a second set with this announcement; and perhaps even a blue-grey set as well. Here are some questions which I'm sure someone on here will be able to answer: 1) What was the last 47/7 to wear Large Logo Blue livery and what was the latest it operated as such? 2) Same question more generally for the blue-grey MK3+DBSO sets as well 3) Did the blue/grey MK3s ever wear ScotRail branding, or were they all Inter-City until they recieved the blue stripe ScotRail livery? Thanks in advance. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 (edited) 1) What was the last 47/7 to wear Large Logo Blue livery and what was the latest it operated as such? 2) Same question more generally for the blue-grey MK3+DBSO sets as well 3) Did the blue/grey MK3s ever wear ScotRail branding, or were they all Inter-City until they recieved the blue stripe ScotRail livery? As far as I am aware only 47711 and 47712 carried Large Logo Blue, 15 April 1981 is the earliest I can find 47711 15 April 1981 to October 1984 (photo on 01 December 1984 in ScotRail livery) 47712 15 April 1981 to February 1985 Note that 47711 was repainted three times in ScotRail livery (many of the others were painted at least twice) Its second repainted was August 1986 (correcting the text on one side) and the third in 1990 (with no text and fully painted yellow headboards) Repainting of the ScotRail Express coaches commenced in late 1984 (with the Aberdeen based coaches and air-braked Mark 2) and was completed by the end of 1986 (I certainly don't remember any in 1987) By the start of 1985 half of the DBSO and Mark 3 had been repainted and all were completed by the end of the year Those that weren't completed by the end of 1986 remained in Blue Grey, such as 6607 and 6614 I have photos of one DBSO carrying additional ScotRail text, "Inter-City Scotrail" but I can't find any of Mark 3A coaches with this text in Blue Grey livery However two of the sleepers carried "ScotRail Sleeper" and "Sleeper" (with the Inter-City blanked out) Edited April 5, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
47475 Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) Thanks for all the info, mjkerr. I might have to do some digging to find out what and when exactly was the last 47/7 in BR Blue as well - unless of course you know off the top of your head! My (eventual) layout is definitely going to have to be more flexible in terms of the time period. It was going to be focused on 1987 to 1991 (meaning a very small window for 47713), but if I also go down the road of BR Blue and/or Large Logo Blue 47/7 push-pull sets, I guess that puts me back at least as far as 1985! I can feel one ScotRail and two blue/grey sets coming on... Edited April 6, 2013 by 47475 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 (edited) I might have to do some digging to find out what and when exactly was the last 47/7 in BR Blue as well - unless of course you know off the top of your head! It's easier to create a history of each loco which is what I have done As there were only 17 Class 47/7 RCH (HA/ED) locos it is quite easy However, I have simply listed what livery each loco was in at each year 1986 to 1996 (along with all the ScotRail based coaches as well) edit : I might add a sub-section on my website with details about each Class 47/7 loco, why I did or did not select them My details for Class 37 locos (based at Eastfield and Inverness) is much more detailed, thanks to the Class 37 group website It's a shame there isn't a similar website with such information for Class 47 locos (as class47.co.uk simply lists basic details) My (eventual) layout is definitely going to have to be more flexible in terms of the time period. It was going to be focused on 1987 to 1991 (meaning a very small window for 47713), but if I also go down the road of BR Blue and/or Large Logo Blue 47/7 push-pull sets, I guess that puts me back at least as far as 1985! I can feel one ScotRail and two blue/grey sets coming on... My original plan was for Glasgow Queen Street 1982 to 1996, however I noticed the track layout into Platform 1 changed twice between 1982 and 1986 Therefore to be strictly accurate Blue / Grey livery wouldn't exist However, I doubt anyone viewing the layout would actually be aware of the changes at Platform 1 Equally, by 1996 Class 158 units were operating the Express services, so having these two together really is pushing the limits I have now completed two Blue Grey Mark 3A sets, the final Blue Grey set of Mark 2 (air con) coaches will be completed when the latest Farish version is released The ScotRail livery Mark 2 and 3A sets I have will do for just now, until the Dapol version is available, along with the latest Farish DBSO I am hopeful Farish release the Mark 2 coaches (both 2A and air con) in ScotRail livery The rakes are looking rather redundant with a lack of 47/7 locos at the moment! Edited April 6, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Robert Shrives Posted April 7, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 7, 2013 Hi Ian Allan album for 1987 ( looking at two days ago and now not sure of year) has a lovely colour pick at Eastfield of DBSO repainted with blue grey mk3a behind - showing Intercity ScotRail legend on side of coaches - will have to check again but looks like they did run. Anybody futher with set numbers for consists. One set given in the Polmont Derailment report but this was a short lived set -sadly. Robert Shrives Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 7, 2013 Share Posted April 7, 2013 (edited) Hi Ian Allan album for 1987 ( looking at two days ago and now not sure of year) has a lovely colour pick at Eastfield of DBSO repainted with blue grey mk3a behind - showing Intercity ScotRail legend on side of coaches - will have to check again but looks like they did run. Anybody futher with set numbers for consists. One set given in the Polmont Derailment report but this was a short lived set -sadly. Robert Shrives Given all the DBSO were painted into ScotRail livery by 1986 this was probably taken a few years earlier, as I found to be quite common for such books As yet I have still not found a photo with the "Inter-City ScotRail" text, just one with "Scotrail" on a DBSO in Blue Grey livery Anybody futher with set numbers for consists. One set given in the Polmont Derailment report but this was a short lived set -sadly. What year are you looking for? The main issue is such consists would change on a daily basis 1986 : EC601 9701 + 3295 + 6605 + 5716 + 5694 + 5673 + (PC601) 92061 EC602 9702 + 11905 + 12030 + 12014 + 12004 EC604 9704 + 11907 + 12015 + 12027 + 12051 EC605 9705 + 11910 + 12023 + 12025 + 12017 EC611 9711 + 11908 + 12012 + 12005 + 12021 Edited April 7, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 (edited) At least one DBSO - 9706 carried "Inter-City Scotrail" brandings in Blue/Grey livery see photo here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/429-scottish-region-photos-1980s/page-16 - scroll down page to near the bottom. Of note the lower case "r" in Scotrail Edited April 8, 2013 by tractor_37260 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 At least one DBSO - 9706 carried "Inter-City Scotrail" brandings in Blue/Grey livery see photo here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/429-scottish-region-photos-1980s/page-16 - scroll down page to near the bottom. Of note the lower case "r" in Scotrail See post #66, confirms that only one in Blue Grey livery carried "Inter-City Scotrail" Still not found any with "Inter-City ScotRail" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted April 8, 2013 Author Share Posted April 8, 2013 A final question, before I assemble the specification for the coach sets. What were the numbers of the Mark 3 coaches that received 'SC' prefixes when the coaches still wore blue/grey livery? Many thanks to all for their continuing help with this project. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 (edited) What were the numbers of the Mark 3 coaches that received 'SC' prefixes when the coaches still wore blue/grey livery? In effect all those that were allocated to Craigentinny did Are you planning on releasing a set in Blue / Grey with SCottish numbers? As at 1985 : 11005 11006 11007 11008 11009 11010 12004 12005 12006 12007 12008 12009 12011 12012 12013 12014 12015 12016 12017 12019 12020 12021 12022 12023 12024 12025 12026 12027 12028 12029 12030 12031 12050 12051 12058 12061 12094 12136 Edited April 9, 2013 by mjkerr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerr Posted April 8, 2013 Share Posted April 8, 2013 (edited) See post #66, confirms that only one in Blue Grey livery carried "Inter-City Scotrail" Still not found any with "Inter-City ScotRail" Yet another DBSO (number unknown) : http://www.scot-rail.co.uk/photo/scaled/682.jpg This one has the guard and driver text on the grey (rather than the others which have this text on the blue) From above, 9706 : http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6742064019_8a8744dfa6_b.jpg The other side of 9706 : http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8288/7772033030_4da6326dbb_b.jpg This also confirms that some of the Mark 3A FO and TSO also had the "Scotrail" text applied, which was then replaced by the blue stripe and later "ScotRail" text version Edited April 8, 2013 by mjkerr 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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