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SECR Birdcage Coaches

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#1 Bill

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:57

As no one has yet started a topic on the forthcoming SECR Birdcage coaches, I thought that I might have a go.

My interest in these is that they were used on the Guildford to Horsham branchline.

At some date they were replaced but it would have to have been after the late 1950's.

I remember seeing them, I belive three in all, sitting at the south end of platform 2 waiting to depart.

They were usually hauled around that time by an M7 tank.

Does anyone know if these coaches were of the same type that Bachmann are proposing to release?

Not that it will make any difference to my desire to acquire them.

For Whether or not these are the same - they will surely fit the part.

My only niggle is that Bachmann will not be producing them in BR(S) green... 

Which I do wish do they had proposed to do...

I am eagerly looking forward to seeing what the the pre-production models look like.. 


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#2 Charlie

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 00:31

http://www.bachmann....=500&height=264

 

There's what they're producing, and you never know, they may do green ones after a while. Sales will dictate how many runs they have I should imagine.


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#3 Bill

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 14:19

http://www.bachmann....=500&height=264

 

There's what they're producing, and you never know, they may do green ones after a while. Sales will dictate how many runs they have I should imagine.

 

Thanks - it certainly looks the part however I am no expert on the different varieties of SECR coaching stock...

I was hoping there was someone on this forum who might know

As a topic, however, there may not much that can be said...



#4 Torn-on-the-platform

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 16:46

The Brake Third in the photo would appear to be in the Bulleid pre-nationalisation livery (malachite green beneath the grime). Is this in line with the advertising?

 

PB

 

I don't think so, the Southern livery advertised is to be olive so as to match the preserved E4. I'm sure further liveries will follow, though Bachmann are new to the pre-nationalisation-carriage-detail game so perhaps they won't churn all the livery variations out as quickly as Hornby have done with the Maunsells.

 

I personally am quite pleased that they will initially be released in BR crimson, as there is a photo of an Ivatt 2 tank leaving Horsted Keynes with a set of crimson/cream Maunsells and what appears to be a grubby crimson set of birdcages in Middleton Press' East Grinstead book. This photo has provided inspiration to me somewhat I already have a 3 coach crimson/cream Maunsell set (though I'm not sure if they are exactly the right type), and I very much look forward to adding the birdcage set to the back!

 

*Edit* - Last I checked, the Bluebell's first official departure from East Grinstead tomorrow will consist of a rake of olive green coaches hauled by E4 Birch Grove, one of which will presumably be the recently restored birdcage brake.


Edited by Torn-on-the-platform, 22 March 2013 - 17:08 .

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#5 G-BOAF

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 18:51

Possibly, but the Bluebell’s recently restored Birdcage is of the  50ft variety, not the 60ft one Bachmann are modelling. I was about to order a set of Birdcages, on the basis of all types being preserved somewhere (Brake Third, Brake 2nd/3rd, and Composite). I then realised they came in two lengths (I’m new to pregrouping rolling stock!), and the only preserved 60ft vehicle is the Bluebell’s Third Brake. So that will be ordered, and have to run with my Hornby lined olive Maunsells (also limited due to preservation variants, about to become two once the Open third is released! I digress...)  And before anyone points out, the bluebell’s ‘centre’ birdcage composite is a 63ft hybrid of earlier coaches. Such is the minefield of preservation modelling.

 

Once can hope that the chassis will be used to produce the ‘hundred seaters’ in due course?

 

Still, looking forward to my solitary Bridcage when they are made, and will be ordering from Sheffield Park shop, on an imminent visit!


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#6 Forester

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 13:06

Personally I'll be waiting for a BR(S) green set.

 

BR crimson never looks right to me at 4mm scale. It needs to be heavily toned down for a realistic effect.



#7 10800

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 18:53

Personally I'll be waiting for a BR(S) green set.

 

BR crimson never looks right to me at 4mm scale. It needs to be heavily toned down for a realistic effect.

 

Oh, I dunno:

 

051023 062.JPG

 

(These are Roxey kits painted in what I thought was quite a garish orange at first, but from a distance ...).  I'll probably just paint my unbuilt Roxey kits green, although I suspect they will be done in that livery one day.


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#8 coachmann

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 19:02

I no longer have the Oakwood SE&CR carraige book and so cannot be specific. But if these Birdcage coaches didnt last much beyond 1956, it is possible they never got painted BR(S) green. That said, the SR Malachite green weathered darker as the years passed and this darkenning would be assisted if BR Southern Region re-varnished them instead of giving them carmine red. Plus they would have acquired BR Gil Sans insignia in the early 1950s and so they would look like coaches would look if given post 1956 green.


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#9 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 19:04

Without wishing to spoil things too much, I wonder if the lack of a BR Green set is because none of the 60ft 3 Trio sets actually got painted in BR(S) Green?

The David Gould book on SECR coaches says that the last 60ft trio set went in 1958, and BR(S) green started to be used from mid-1956 so it doesn't look that likely.

Some of the pull-push sets converted from these coaches are specifically mentioned as being painted BR green, and BR would have painted some of them in Bulleid green for a year or two after Nationalisation (and probably revarnished them for a lot longer).

Edit: Coachman beat me to it by two minutes!

Edited by pete_mcfarlane, 23 March 2013 - 19:06 .

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#10 10800

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 19:15

Good point both - what I thought I'd seen photos of may well have been revarnished malachite.  I'll recheck my books and get back if I find anything otherwise.



#11 it's-er

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 19:20

10800 What a superb photo you have just put on here - wonderful coaches, but the layout looks excellent too. I really like the landscaping - that field with the hedge running through it, the trees, and the distant bridge with the signals directly in front of it. Altogether it is rather wonderful.
John
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#12 Julian

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:10

Did the Birdcage coaches which Bachmann is to produce ever run as 2-coach sets in BR days? Just wondering as a 3-coach set is a bit long for the sort of layouts I build! If they did, what would be the combination of coaches - Brake 3rd and a Composite?


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#13 aussiebrfan

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 02:26

Did the Birdcage coaches which Bachmann is to produce ever run as 2-coach sets in BR days? Just wondering as a 3-coach set is a bit long for the sort of layouts I build! If they did, what would be the combination of coaches - Brake 3rd and a Composite?

 

 

I was also wondering this for the same reasons as Julian, also would they have been used in the Dorset area in late 50's, eg. Bournemouth, the Old Road etc?? Thankyou in advance.



#14 pete_mcfarlane

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 11:43

These coaches didn't run in two coach sets except for a handful that were modified as pull-push coaches (and the driving coaches were quite heavily modified, losing the Birdcage guards lookouts for example). The rest stayed as 3 coach sets for their entire lives according to the Gould book. 

 

I've also spotted a photo of a 60' Trio set at Guildford in 1953 in the same book - presumably it would be either for the Horsham line or for the Redhill to Reading services. Still painted Malachite green.


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#15 10800

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:11

10800 What a superb photo you have just put on here - wonderful coaches, but the layout looks excellent too. I really like the landscaping - that field with the hedge running through it, the trees, and the distant bridge with the signals directly in front of it. Altogether it is rather wonderful.
John

 

Thank you John.  I can't claim to be the builder of the coaches (or the loco, a Wills D 4-4-0) but the layout is Eridge Mk1, now being rebuilt as documented in http://www.rmweb.co....of-a-p4-layout/ and is one end of the "Balcombe Project".  The shallow cutting and 3-arch bridge are based on Ashurst to give a scenic break at the north end, and the signal is from the approaches to Birchden Junction to the north.  The arch you can see has some mirror tile fitted half way through to give the impression of more scenery beyond. 


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#16 10800

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 13:32

The last 60ft trio set I have a photo of (in relation to trains that would have passed Eridge) is at Lewes on 7 August 1958 on a Brighton-TWW train.  It's a black and white photo inevitably, but the coaches are clean (especially you can see through the birdcage glass) so it could have been through the shops recently.  Impossible to guess what colour they might be though so nothing proven.  Terry Gough, "The Southern in Kent and Sussex" plate 103.

 

Michael Welch's "Southern Coaches in Colour" has a photo of push-pull set 659 in green at TWW in October 1961.  Sister sets (though not this one) are specifically referred to by Gould as being repainted green between 1959 and 1961 as noted by Pete above.

 

It does seem unlikely that trios were painted BR green, but revarnished malachite would still be an option through the 1950s.  Mind you if Hornby's Maunsells are anything to go by the two colours are the same :jester:


Edited by 10800, 24 March 2013 - 13:37 .

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#17 Anglian

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 21:13

I have to admit I have no knowledge of the prototype working of these coaches under SECR ownership but given the options Bachmann are proposing could somebody kindly perhaps suggest a formation that would be appropriate for my SECR Wainwright C. Might I get away with three or four coaches in an historical formation? I also hope to buy the second version they are releasing in the less ornate livery.



#18 phil-b259

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 21:31

I have to admit I have no knowledge of the prototype working of these coaches under SECR ownership but given the options Bachmann are proposing could somebody kindly perhaps suggest a formation that would be appropriate for my SECR Wainwright C. Might I get away with three or four coaches in an historical formation? I also hope to buy the second version they are releasing in the less ornate livery.

 

While there are photos of a birdcage brake being the leading vehicle of a SECR pullman train I would imagine the usually format was exactly as Bachmann are producing - a three car set. Certainly in SR days the birdcage brakes were formed into sets for branch line and stopping services.


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#19 phil-b259

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 21:42

Possibly, but the Bluebell’s recently restored Birdcage is of the 50ft variety, not the 60ft one Bachmann are modelling. I was about to order a set of Birdcages, on the basis of all types being preserved somewhere (Brake Third, Brake 2nd/3rd, and Composite). I then realised they came in two lengths (I’m new to pregrouping rolling stock!), and the only preserved 60ft vehicle is the Bluebell’s Third Brake. So that will be ordered, and have to run with my Hornby lined olive Maunsells (also limited due to preservation variants, about to become two once the Open third is released! I digress...) And before anyone points out, the bluebell’s ‘centre’ birdcage composite is a 63ft hybrid of earlier coaches. Such is the minefield of preservation modelling.

Once can hope that the chassis will be used to produce the ‘hundred seaters’ in due course?

Still, looking forward to my solitary Bridcage when they are made, and will be ordering from Sheffield Park shop, on an imminent visit!



The Bluebell actually have 3 birdcage brakes with a 4th on site

(i) http://www.bluebell-.../pics/1170.html (Presumably the Bachmann model) 60'

(ii) http://www.bluebell-...hort_birdb.html (same length as 3363) 50'

(iii) http://www.bluebell-...cage/index.html (The recently restored no. 3363) 50'

(iv) http://www.bluebell-...l/pics/950.html (Privatley owned, at the Bluebell for storage only)

Edit:

Of course one problem is the centre coach for a birdcage trio. The only non brake SECR bogie coaches on the bluebell are the two '100 sweaters' (built 1922 / 1923) and one coach consisting of 2/3 SECR bodies refitted to a new SR underframe in the late20s.

That said maybe the IOW railway have something suitable.

Edited by phil-b259, 25 March 2013 - 23:41 .


#20 Removed a/c_Belgian

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Posted 25 March 2013 - 22:22

A member of Bachmann's staff confirmed to me that the Birdcage set is to be based on the Bluebell coaches, telling me that some were in an unrestored condition at the time they were measured up and that this made such a task quite difficult!

 

Make of that what you will.

 

JE



#21 IWCR

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 13:01

The  Isle  of  Wight  has  two  ex  SECR  brake  thirds  and  a  composite,  these  are  all  the  54ft  underframe  version.

The  brakes  were  modified  with  larger  brake / luggage  spaces  for  IOW  use  and  the  birdcages  (also   roof  ventilators)  removed to  suit  the  IOW  loading  gauge.  They  did  last  till  the  end  of  steam  and  latterly  were  in  BR  green,  unfortunatly  they  are  the  wrong  length  for  the  Bachmann  model,  yet  to  see  if  a  cut  and  shut  is  practical.

 

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#22 Anglian

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:54

While there are photos of a birdcage brake being the leading vehicle of a SECR pullman train I would imagine the usually format was exactly as Bachmann are producing - a three car set. Certainly in SR days the birdcage brakes were formed into sets for branch line and stopping services.

 

Thank you. I was aiming at buying three or four coaches so a three car set will be ideal. There's a lot to buy this year along with these, the E4 and the next Hornby LSWR M7.


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#23 Venator

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 13:17

The Kent and East Sussex Railway is home to two 54ft birdcage brakes. Unlike the Isle of Wight ones they retain the birdcage section. I believe they were sold to the Longmoor Military Railway in the 40s. The centre coach was scrapped in the 50s.

 

See link for more details: http://www.kesr.org..../110-secr#60-61

 

I am very happy Bachmann have chosen to produce a Birdcage set, the SE&CR crimson lake ones will make an excellent match with their equally exquisite C Class.


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#24 mikeandnel

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 16:34

Hello all you lads

I am new to this website and forum and my interest is secr/lbsc.

Can anyone tell me exactly when these coaches will be on the market?

I have made a rake of Blacksmith SECR coaches and finished them in pre-group condition

But would like not to miss out as I did with the 'C' class!

Micheal


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#25 Andy Hayter

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 06:21

As far s I can see there is not even a hint of a delivery date, so I think we can expect them sometime in 2014. I am not even sure that a RRP has yet been set. 

 

As someone else who missed the C Class, the best I can suggest is to pre-order with your local supplier.  Normally they will not take any money until the models arrive. 














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