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SECR Birdcage Coaches

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#826 JSpencer

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Posted 04 December 2017 - 18:42

No to mention their monopoly on the Canterbury & Whitstable, of course ............. I've always wondered what the thinking was behind building them with 5' wheels : as such they should have been quite capable mixed traffic branchline machines - especially with the 'H' boiler ........ maybe the 'front end' was too restricted ?


Not entirely. Stirling O class were used with short chimneys on the line for a while (long before BR days though). And yes, both O and R classes had the same chassis and boiler (even when converted to R1 and O1 respectively).



#827 Robin Brasher

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 07:57

Hi

That's not a lot off compared to the normal price rails are charging I only payed £143.50 ant that was with next day delivery but still an excellent price

Thanks
Alan

I don't think that the crimson birdcage coaches are selling as well as the Maunsell green ones. At the Swanage station shop there are about four crimson sets left whereas there is only one pair of Maunsell green brakes although the Maunsell coaches are more expensive. I wonder what the demand will be for the SE&CR birdcage sets.



#828 JSpencer

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 08:28

I don't think that the crimson birdcage coaches are selling as well as the Maunsell green ones. At the Swanage station shop there are about four crimson sets left whereas there is only one pair of Maunsell green brakes although the Maunsell coaches are more expensive. I wonder what the demand will be for the SE&CR birdcage sets.

 

Almost certainly a lot higher as there will be people wanting these for there SECR H and C classes. Being some of the biggest and latest SECR coaches though, I have to wonder if they would run have run often with a H or a C (this loco being mainly for freight) in SECR days.



#829 Cor-onGRT4

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 11:47

I don't think that the crimson birdcage coaches are selling as well as the Maunsell green ones. At the Swanage station shop there are about four crimson sets left whereas there is only one pair of Maunsell green brakes although the Maunsell coaches are more expensive. I wonder what the demand will be for the SE&CR birdcage sets.

Depends on what shop you are talking about, Hatton's for example have still lot of stock of crimsons while these came out half of September and immediately had a period of time in their top 20 of bestsellers on the high rang, while the new Maunsell green ones not even have appeared on any place in the top 20 bestsellers till now

I think it has to do with the Swanage station their SR based history i believe, so many people visiting want to buy something Southern livered models and that are the Maunsell geen ones.

But to be onnest they are much better looking in that livery ;)



#830 Forester

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 12:36

Probably the slightly faded crimson colour is putting people off (given the high price of these Birdcages).

 

Must be many in my quandary:

Crimsons not quite hitting the spot, SECRs not known if they will be a true glowing Lake or just a muddy brown (and don't like the white roofs), Olives absolutely Fabulous but I just don't do that era.

 

What I want is BR green which it is claimed they never ran in, but I travelled in them so I know they certainly did,

 

Currently sitting on my hands, as I suspect are others....



#831 Fireline

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 16:33

Probably the slightly faded crimson colour is putting people off (given the high price of these Birdcages).

 

Must be many in my quandary:

Crimsons not quite hitting the spot, SECRs not known if they will be a true glowing Lake or just a muddy brown (and don't like the white roofs), Olives absolutely Fabulous but I just don't do that era.

 

What I want is BR green which it is claimed they never ran in, but I travelled in them so I know they certainly did,

 

Currently sitting on my hands, as I suspect are others....

 

I have heard the argument that they ran in SR green, just with BR logos on them. I can't say myself, wasn't around back then!


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#832 Robin Brasher

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Posted 05 December 2017 - 19:44

I have heard the argument that they ran in SR green, just with BR logos on them. I can't say myself, wasn't around back then!

By 1940 malachite green was the dominant colour for passenger coaches and locomotives. It was intended to last for 10 years and the paint was very resilient. It was quite usual for the carriage shed staff to varnish the existing green paint on coaches rather than to repaint them in the unpopular crimson livery for southern region station staff.

 

Most of the photographs I have seen of birdcage stock are black and white but I think it is likely that a number survived in malachite green livery in British Railways days but with British Railways numbering an no smoking signs. I expect a number of birdcage coaches remained in Southern livery and numbering until the early 1950s.


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#833 trevor7598

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 08:47

By 1940 malachite green was the dominant colour for passenger coaches and locomotives. It was intended to last for 10 years and the paint was very resilient. It was quite usual for the carriage shed staff to varnish the existing green paint on coaches rather than to repaint them in the unpopular crimson livery for southern region station staff.

 

Most of the photographs I have seen of birdcage stock are black and white but I think it is likely that a number survived in malachite green livery in British Railways days but with British Railways numbering an no smoking signs. I expect a number of birdcage coaches remained in Southern livery and numbering until the early 1950s.

 

After 1948 it was the practice with coaches in ' sunshine ' livery to paint out the word ' southern ' and the 3's on the

third class compartment doors. The coach number remained at eaves level, but with an S prefix added.

This sufficed until the next repaint.

I couldn't agree more that we need some green Birdcages for the BR era.



#834 Oldddudders

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 09:36

 

I couldn't agree more that we need some green Birdcages for the BR era.

 

But the crimson ones have obviously sold well, at least to some of us. And next year, when some sort of later green appears, we may buy those, too. Had Malachite or BR(S) green been in the first batch, how many crimson ones would have sold later? Bachmann knows its market. 


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#835 Removed a/c_spet0114

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:20

But the crimson ones have obviously sold well, at least to some of us. And next year, when some sort of later green appears, we may buy those, too. Had Malachite or BR(S) green been in the first batch, how many crimson ones would have sold later? Bachmann knows its market. 

They do indeed - precisely why the crimson ones arrived first.....



#836 47606odin

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:23

I have crimson, and think they look great in the livery. I won’t be buying others, too expensive
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#837 trevor7598

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 10:27

But the crimson ones have obviously sold well, at least to some of us. And next year, when some sort of later green appears, we may buy those, too. Had Malachite or BR(S) green been in the first batch, how many crimson ones would have sold later? Bachmann knows its market. 

 

If we were privy to Hornby's sales figures, they might provide the answer ie. how well did the malachite LSW rebuilds

sell as they were preceded by BR crimson models.

It has been the practice for some manufacturers to get the ' duff ' liveries out first, as these will sell to the

' must haves ' but could remain on the shelves if produced after the classic liveries. Heljan Cromptons come to mind.

 

Liveries aside there are quite a few permutations of the Birdcages that Bachmann can do to get  mileage

out of the tooling.



#838 bill_schmidt1

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 11:43

 

 

What I want is BR green which it is claimed they never ran in, but I travelled in them so I know they certainly did,

 

 

SR Malachite green yes but I believe that the only Birdcage coaches that might of got BR green were the ones converted to Pull-Push sets. None of trio sets picked up BR green as far as i'm aware, I've never seen a picture or seen it made reference to in any books.

 



#839 Forester

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 13:45

SR Malachite green yes but I believe that the only Birdcage coaches that might of got BR green were the ones converted to Pull-Push sets. None of trio sets picked up BR green as far as i'm aware, I've never seen a picture or seen it made reference to in any books.
 

Now you've heard it from an eye-witness.



#840 IWCR

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 13:50

The  SECR  ex  birdcage  stock  on  the  Isle  of  Wight  did  receive  BR  green.

These  were  however  an  earlier  type  (1911)  and  shorter  than  the  ones  being  produced.  (54'  frames)

 

Pete


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#841 bill_schmidt1

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 14:15

Now you've heard it from an eye-witness.

You appear to be the only one!

Although under the dirt in this picture who knows.... http://www.steve-ban...7_1000_72u.jpg 



#842 GreenGiraffe22

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 15:22

Are there not livery records somewhere? I was under the impression the birdcage stock remained olive through to the end of grouping, presumably re-varnished several times.



#843 Thebigshot

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 16:41

I don't think that the crimson birdcage coaches are selling as well as the Maunsell green ones. At the Swanage station shop there are about four crimson sets left whereas there is only one pair of Maunsell green brakes although the Maunsell coaches are more expensive. I wonder what the demand will be for the SE&CR birdcage sets.


Hi

I can only guess that eather more people want or prefer the green ones but I am guessing the what the fact are

Thanks
Alan

#844 trevor7598

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 17:41

SR Malachite green yes but I believe that the only Birdcage coaches that might of got BR green were the ones converted to Pull-Push sets. None of trio sets picked up BR green as far as i'm aware, I've never seen a picture or seen it made reference to in any books.

 

 

We had this very argument with Hornby's LSW rebuilds. All I can say is I hope we can have a set of Birdcages

in a shade of green to suit the BR era. There certainly were some green sets at the end, around 1958.



#845 Nick C

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Posted 06 December 2017 - 21:38

Gould (Bogie carriages of the SECR) gives the withdrawal date of the last trio C set as October 1958.

There is a photo of S3457 in green on page 44 of Mike King's 'Southern vans and coaches in colour' dated 1957, but I can't tell if it's malachite or BR green - it looks too dull to be freshly painted so I'd say malachite - especially as it's noted as being just withdrawn. The photo of composite S5489 on the following page is clearly malachite, and is captioned so.

The pull-push sets did get BR green.

Edited by Nick C, 06 December 2017 - 21:42 .

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#846 Richard Jones

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Posted 07 December 2017 - 21:38

Some detail photographs of these exquisite coaches. 'Olive Green' does seem to be a rather moveable feast however, depending upon which manufacturer presents it. Not a great problem though.
 
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Some very fine detail and printing. I look at these and remember how far we have come since Graham Farish released their OO 'Southern' coaches. These are not cheap certainly, but does that make them expensive? I think not.
 
Tony


Many thanks for the photos, Tony, they look excellent
According to my emails,Hattons have dispatched mine,but I won't get them in my sweaty hands till we return from the Southern Hemisphere at the end of January - perhaps the composite will have arrived by then.
All I need now is for Hornby to issue the high window Maunsell coaches in SR green.....
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#847 phil-b259

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 19:22

All I need now is for Hornby to issue the high window Maunsell coaches in SR green.....

 

Why, has this years batch sold out?

 

Have a look for R4768, R4768A, R4769 and R4770.

 

Of course if you are specifically after a BCK (only ever released as part of the 'Imperial Airways' Train pack), a CK (not yet done as a high window in Olive) or a 4 compartment BTK (again not yet done in Olive) then you have a point....


Edited by phil-b259, 11 December 2017 - 18:22 .


#848 Richard Jones

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 21:14

Thanks, Phil, missed those coming out, will have a look for them.....

#849 Cor-onGRT4

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Posted 08 December 2017 - 22:46

Why, has this years batch sold out?

 

Have a look for R4768, R4768A, R4769 and R4770.

 

Of course if you are specifically after a BCK (only ever released as part of the 'Imperial Airways' Train pack), a CK (not yet done as a high window in Olive) or a 4 compartment BTK (again not yet done in Olive) then you have a point....

 

Incidentally anyone know why the Olive ones have a dark grey roof - Hornby's Maunsell corridor stock and Kernow's Olive gate stock have it a sort of off whiteish colour while 3363 on the Bluebell has a light grey finish.

Hornby did made these 4 compartment BTK in olive in 2010   -  R4394 a /b as coachnumbers 3218 3219, this was the onlly one time they were produced.

Hard to find now, but I managed a month ago to get one pre-owned from hattons,

So they exist. but onley  thin layerd



#850 Richard Jones

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Posted 09 December 2017 - 01:28

Why, has this years batch sold out?
 
Have a look for R4768, R4768A, R4769 and R4770.
 
Of course if you are specifically after a BCK (only ever released as part of the 'Imperial Airways' Train pack), a CK (not yet done as a high window in Olive) or a 4 compartment BTK (again not yet done in Olive) then you have a point....
 
Incidentally anyone know why the Olive ones have a dark grey roof - Hornby's Maunsell corridor stock and Kernow's Olive gate stock have it a sort of off whiteish colour while 3363 on the Bluebell has a light grey finish.


Hi Phil,

Many thanks -found them on Hatton's website.

I would like a set as ran, Ldn - Bog - Pmth, which according to the SEmG website would be BTK - CK - CK - BTK,
so presumably the brake thirds would be suitable (renumbered) but, as I'm in the Southern Hemisphere and don't have access to my copy of Gould, can anyone tell me if either the corridor third or corridor first are physically the same as the composite and could be renumbered etc to represent them?












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