SECR Birdcage Coaches

[olivegreen]

Hi Cor-on4gt,

Yes, the Hatton's website site is very good, and I have looked at the product pictures. The problem I have is that Hornby do not currently produce a composite (CK) and I can't access any prototype photos to check if the first (FK) or third (TK) could masquerade (with a change to transfers etc) as a composite, as my copy of Gould is 12,000 miles away!

Best wishes

Richard

Note to self - must look to see if there is a Maunsell coach topic on RMweb, as this is the SECR Birdcage coach topic!

 

The three you mention are all different, since First and Third compartment widths lead to different window sizes and spacing.

As to one masquerading as another - remember rule one…!

[SRman]

The three you mention are all different, since First and Third compartment widths lead to different window sizes and spacing.

As to one masquerading as another - remember rule one…!

 

Besides Rule 1, there have been precedents in the real world where first class compartments have been downgraded, so those in the know could ride second class but with a heap of extra legroom. I'm not saying this happened with any of the Maunsell hauled stock, but ti certainly happened with some Maunsell and Bulleid EMU coaches at different times.

[Richard Jones]

Besides Rule 1, there have been precedents in the real world where first class compartments have been downgraded, so those in the know could ride second class but with a heap of extra legroom. I'm not saying this happened with any of the Maunsell hauled stock, but ti certainly happened with some Maunsell and Bulleid EMU coaches at different times.

Just to put my original query into context, I am on the other side of the world from my bookshelf and, in all probability, Hattons will have sold out by the time I am back in the UK and able to verify details of the composites.

However (www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/maunsell.html) - there were 2 styles of composite - dia 2301 - 4 x 1st and 3 x 3rd, and dia 2303 - 3 x 1st and 4 x 3rd but there were no EXTERNAL differences between the 2 diagrams.

Hence my entirely reasonable question as to the external view of the composite compared to the 1st (which is also 7 compartments) but I can't reach up to my bookshelf to check on!

[SRman]

Just to put my original query into context, I am on the other side of the world from my bookshelf and, in all probability, Hattons will have sold out by the time I am back in the UK and able to verify details of the composites.

However (www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/maunsell.html) - there were 2 styles of composite - dia 2301 - 4 x 1st and 3 x 3rd, and dia 2303 - 3 x 1st and 4 x 3rd but there were no EXTERNAL differences between the 2 diagrams.

Hence my entirely reasonable question as to the external view of the composite compared to the 1st (which is also 7 compartments) but I can't reach up to my bookshelf to check on!

 

The firsts had evenly spaced compartments with the same dimensions throughout, whereas the composites did have larger firsts and smaller thirds (or seconds as per later in their lives). I would have to check the drawings for whether the middle compartment on the later ones with three firsts and four thirds kept the first class dimensions. that would be another example of what i said in my earlier post, where a first class compartment is simply downgraded.

[chris45lsw]

d

The firsts had evenly spaced compartments with the same dimensions throughout, whereas the composites did have larger firsts and smaller thirds (or seconds as per later in their lives). I would have to check the drawings for whether the middle compartment on the later ones with three firsts and four thirds kept the first class dimensions. that would be another example of what i said in my earlier post, where a first class compartment is simply downgraded.

Because the first had 7 x 7ft 1.75in compartments while the compo had 4 x 7ft 1.75in and 3 x 6ft 3in compartments it meant that the compos had more spacious lavatories than the firsts.  In the d.2303 compo (3F/4T) the exterior dimensions were, as said, the same as the d.2301 (4F/3T) but inside the inner first was made into a third by reducing the compartment width to 6ft 3in by adding additional bulkheads. 

 

Chris KT

[SRman]

Because the first had 7 x 7ft 1.75in compartments while the compo had 4 x 7ft 1.75in and 3 x 6ft 3in compartments it meant that the compos had more spacious lavatories than the firsts.  In the d.2303 compo (3F/4T) the exterior dimensions were, as said, the same as the d.2301 (4F/3T) but inside the inner first was made into a third by reducing the compartment width to 6ft 3in by adding additional bulkheads. 

 

Chris KT

 

Now that rings a bell, Chris. I do recall reading about the additional bulkheads somewhere a while ago; possibly in Mike King's book?

[olivegreen]

Now that rings a bell, Chris. I do recall reading about the additional bulkheads somewhere a while ago; possibly in Mike King's book?

 

Rings the same bell with me, too!  Unfortunately, like Richard Jones, my Mike King 'bible' is inaccessible at the moment to check.

Nevertheless, what I said relating to the entirely reasonable question posed in post 852 regarding full Thirds and full Firsts, allowing for the possibility of later downgrading of the latter (in BR days?), stands.

 

 

(Minor edit)

Edited December 11, 2017 by olivegreen

[chris45lsw]

The firsts had evenly spaced compartments with the same dimensions throughout, whereas the composites did have larger firsts and smaller thirds (or seconds as per later in their lives). I would have to check the drawings for whether the middle compartment on the later ones with three firsts and four thirds kept the first class dimensions. that would be another example of what i said in my earlier post, where a first class compartment is simply downgraded.

Without wading through my books, from memory no Maunsell firsts were ever downgraded to third/second.  Though 13 'Continentals' and 21 'Ironclads' were in 1954.

 

Chris KT

[phil-b259]

Hornby did made these 4 compartment BTK in olive in 2010   -  R4394 a /b as coachnumbers 3218 3219, this was the onlly one time they were produced.

Hard to find now, but I managed a month ago to get one pre-owned from hattons,

So they exist. but onley  thin layerd

 

But only in the low windowed variant!

 

So far we have had the 4 compartment BTK high windowed version only in Malachite (supposedly) and BR(S) Green

[phil-b259]

Anyway back to the Birdcage stock, anyone know why the Olive ones have a dark grey roof - Hornby's Maunsell corridor stock and Kernow's Olive gate stock have it a sort of off whiteish colour while 3363 on the Bluebell has a light grey finish?

[Wickham Green]

Anyway back to the Birdcage stock, anyone know why the Olive ones have a dark grey roof - Hornby's Maunsell corridor stock and Kernow's Olive gate stock have it a sort of off whiteish colour while 3363 on the Bluebell has a light grey finish?

The colour of a carriage - or wagon - roof was never of great importance, so once the railways had given up trying to pretend that white lead might stay white for more than five minutes behind a smoky old steam loco, the shade of grey tended to vary somewhat : there were, of course, sample panels of the bodyside panel colours issued to each of the paintshops but it's unlikely anything that specific was decreed concerning roofs .............. it's probable that each paintshop foreman aimed for his own favourite recipe BUT it would have started every day containing whatever was left in innumerable paint pots the night before - with the addition of black and white. ( There's a description of 'smudge' in one of the L.M.S. rolling stock books if I remember rightly - probably the carriage book.)

[Compound2632]

The colour of a carriage - or wagon - roof was never of great importance, so once the railways had given up trying to pretend that white lead might stay white for more than five minutes behind a smoky old steam loco, the shade of grey tended to vary somewhat : there were, of course, sample panels of the bodyside panel colours issued to each of the paintshops but it's unlikely anything that specific was decreed concerning roofs .............. it's probable that each paintshop foreman aimed for his own favourite recipe BUT it would have started every day containing whatever was left in innumerable paint pots the night before - with the addition of black and white. ( There's a description of 'smudge' in one of the L.M.S. rolling stock books if I remember rightly - probably the carriage book.)

 

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

 

The only reference to "smudge" by that name of which I am aware is in G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) p. 139:

 

"After World War I the Midland bought a large quantity of battleship grey paint from the Government. This was mixed with black paint left-overs and scrapings to make a sombre dark grey, almost black, which was called smudge. It was used for the repainting of repaired wagons, and the white letters MR ... stood out more prominently than ever."

 

Although Midland Style is about as authoritative on its subject as we are likely to get, it is much to be regretted that Dow did not give sources for much of the information he gives.

 

Essery and Jenkinson, The LMS Coach (Ian Allan, 1969), p. 33 provides some brief notes on the painting of roofs of new carriages; there is nothing to suggest that anything other than standard specifications were used: lead grey for canvas-roofed carriages, metallic paint for steel - metallic aluminium on Stanier carriages, grey post-war.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Compound2632

[Oldddudders]

The only reference to "smudge" by that name of which I am aware is in G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) p. 139:

 

"After World War I the Midland bought a large quantity of battleship grey paint from the Government. This was mixed with black paint left-overs and scrapings to make a sombre dark grey, almost black, which was called smudge. It was used for the repainting of repaired wagons, and the white letters MR ... stood out more prominently than ever."

 

Although Midland Style is about as authoritative on its subject as we are likely to get, it is much to be regretted that Dow did not give sources for much of the information he gives.

 

 

While I cannot, obviously, shed new light on George Dow's sources, I can say I find it most unlikely that they would not have been impeccable. His roles within the railway industry, in public relations during the war, and subsequently in senior management culminating as a Divisional Manager, would give him on-duty access to all sorts of senior engineers and others who knew. It is most likely that these sources, which we might regard as informal, gave freely of their knowledge and experience, but not in a fashion that enabled him to quote a learned publication as his source, which I infer is what you seek. Furthermore, his roles as presidents of both the META and HMRS imply that both the trade and the enthusiast communities of the day regarded him as utterly kosher. 

[Compound2632]

but not in a fashion that enabled him to quote a learned publication as his source, which I infer is what you seek.

 

Well, the ideal would be a primary source such as a specification preserved in one of the various archives that exist. But I agree with your observation on the impeccability of Dow's informal sources - the type of information which is now otherwise lost for ever. I would take every sentence in Midland Style as being as good as primary evidence unless there is some conflicting item of primary evidence.

 

Sorry, this isn't really helping with the question of Southern region roof-painting practice. The only observation I would add is that for canvas-covered roofs, I would presume that a waterproof finish was required which would have made a white lead-based paint the first choice on grounds of cost. I suspect it is this rather than rash optimism that led companies such as the LNWR to turn their carriages out with white roofs.

[billbedford]

Is there any evidence to support this assertion?

 

The only reference to "smudge" by that name of which I am aware is in G. Dow, Midland Style (HMRS, 1975) p. 139:

 

"After World War I the Midland bought a large quantity of battleship grey paint from the Government. This was mixed with black paint left-overs and scrapings to make a sombre dark grey, almost black, which was called smudge. It was used for the repainting of repaired wagons, and the white letters MR ... stood out more prominently than ever."

 

 

The grey used on RN ships during WW1 was a much darker shade than that used later, so it wouldn't have needed much additional leftover to make it look 'almost black'.

[phil-b259]

 

Sorry, this isn't really helping with the question of Southern region roof-painting practice. The only observation I would add is that for canvas-covered roofs, I would presume that a waterproof finish was required which would have made a white lead-based paint the first choice on grounds of cost. I suspect it is this rather than rash optimism that led companies such as the LNWR to turn their carriages out with white roofs.

 

Which makes sense. My understanding was that naturally light coloured roof coverings could be seen as a liability during WW2 so anything repainted during or after that would be noticeably darker. However such repaints would not have featured fully lined out Olive on the bodysides....

 

On sunny days a lighter coloured roof will also keep the coach cooler - which could be a relevant factor too just as darker coloured ones hide grime etc.

[Willie Whizz]

Entirely agree about George Dow's 'economy' with quoting his sources.  He puts no date to, and quotes no source for, his tantalisingly brief comment in "Great Central", Vol. II (p.209) that the Company initially had thoughts of making Kiveton Park or Mansfield the springboard for the London Extension.  From the context, I take this to mean in the 1880’s.  With my great interest in the railways around Mansfield generally, and in the GC specifically, this nugget is both fascinating and frustrating, because I've never seen it mentioned elsewhere, and yet I have no doubt it's correct.  Unlikely perhaps, but if anyone reading this knows more, please say!

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

Which makes sense. My understanding was that naturally light coloured roof coverings could be seen as a liability during WW2 so anything repainted during or after that would be noticeably darker. However such repaints would not have featured fully lined out Olive on the bodysides....

 

On sunny days a lighter coloured roof will also keep the coach cooler - which could be a relevant factor too just as darker coloured ones hide grime etc.

 

Just to wrap this up, a white lead-painted roof would chemically blacken by reaction with sulphur in the polluted atmosphere, in addition to simply accumulating a coating of soot and grime.

[billbedford]

Which makes sense. My understanding was that naturally light coloured roof coverings could be seen as a liability during WW2 so anything repainted during or after that would be noticeably darker. 

 

 

I think worries about light coloured roofs or liveries only applied to the royal train. For most traffic the general lack of just about everything meant that coaches were used in whatever state they were found.

[Robin Brasher]

According to the last paragraph on page 35 of HMRS Livery Register no.3 LSWR and Southern published by the Historical Model Railway Society Southern Railway coach roof were white, which quickly turned cream and then dirty brown up to the early 30s. In the later 1930s the roofs were painted grey.

 

When Tri-ang Hornby introduced their Caledonian and Mk1 coaches in Southern livery the white roofs looked wrong to me as did the rest of the coaches. Hornby have come a long way since then. I used to repaint the roofs grey.

 

I vaguely remember reading in the December 1932 Meccano Magazine that Hornby consulted with the Pullman car company about the colour of roofs for their Pullman coaches. The prototypes had white roofs but they looked too bright for a model and did not represent the colour after a few weeks in service. The Pullman car company advised Hornby to paint the roofs light grey.

 

I had a friend who always painted his model coach roofs dark grey. They looked much more realistic but probably reduced their second hand value to the mint and boxed collectors.
 

[tender]

Just recieved email from Hattons:-

 

 

'We have received information from Bachmann that the first of three forthcoming SECR 'Birdcage' coaches in South Eastern and Chatham Railway lake livery is due into stock imminently:

 

39-600 - 60' SECR Birdcage brake composite 1174 in SE&CR dark lake
 

Bachmann have advised that the other two coaches from this set will arrive separately and are likely to be delivered to retailers in early 2018.
 

39-610 - 60' SECR Birdcage composite 1178 in SE&CR dark lake

39-620 - 60' SECR Birdcage brake third 1182 in SE&CR dark lake'

[Wickham Green]

Someone just told me there's a definitive book on the colours for painting railway carriage & wagon roofs for various purposes ............ I've not tracked down a copy yet  -  understand it's called "Fifty Shades of Grey" ...........................................................

[JSpencer]

Someone just told me there's a definitive book on the colours for painting railway carriage & wagon roofs for various purposes ............ I've not tracked down a copy yet  -  understand it's called "Fifty Shades of Grey" ...........................................................

 

Are you sure that is not for Royal Navy ship colours?

[Wickham Green]

Are you sure that is not for Royal Navy ship colours?

You only need black and white for dazzle camouflage ...................

[GeoffBird]

Have just had an E-Mail from Hattons saying:- 

 

"We have received information from Bachmann that the first of three forthcoming SECR 'Birdcage' coaches in South Eastern and Chatham Railway lake livery is due into stock imminently:
 

39-600 - 60' SECR Birdcage brake composite 1174 in SE&CR dark lake
 

Bachmann have advised that the other two coaches from this set will arrive separately and are likely to be delivered to retailers in early 2018.
 

39-610 - 60' SECR Birdcage composite 1178 in SE&CR dark lake

39-620 - 60' SECR Birdcage brake third 1182 in SE&CR dark lake
 

We understand that the majority of our customers will have 2 or more of these coaches on Pre-Order however we advise that any Pre-Orders you may have for these coaches is set to dispatch items as they arrive as these coaches are expected to sell out soon after arrival and potentially prior to the arrival of the remaining two coaches.
 

We are in discussion with Bachmann as to ascertain an exact date for when the remaining coaches will arrive and we will pass on this information as soon as we receive it."

 

At least 1/3rd of an Xmas present for me!