SECR Birdcage Coaches

[Robin Brasher]

The two Southern Railway birdcage brakes are 2/3 of a Christmas present for me.

[No Decorum]

Hm. Oh well, at least we’ll get to see what the dark lake looks like. Then it can be packed away with the two Southern ones until the rest of the sets arrive. I thought the sets were permanently coupled together.

[trevor7598]

If I could enter into the roof colour debate, my Birdcage brake No 3363 has a specially ordered

BR spec. roof paint. The label on the tins reads ' BR spec low build roof paint, light grey'.

This was specially prepared by Williamsons.

When I inspected the paint ( to see why it differed from ordinary paint ) I discovered that it contained

minute iron particles. When applied to the coach roof canvas the whole effect was a slightly metallic 

silverish grey. During the coach's first period of traffic this colour gradually changed to a brownish grey.

Exactly how I remember SR emu roof colours when fresh from overhaul and after a spell in traffic.

 

I have posted an image of my coach, before it entered traffic which gives an idea of the colour when new.

Edited December 14, 2017 by trevor7598

[Robin Brasher]

P1130626.JPGIf I could enter into the roof colour debate, my Birdcage brake No 3363 has a specially ordered

BR spec. roof paint. The label on the tins reads ' BR spec low build roof paint, light grey'.

This was specially prepared by Williamsons.

When I inspected the paint ( to see why it differed from ordinary paint ) I discovered that it contained

minute iron particles. When applied to the coach roof canvas the whole effect was a slightly metallic 

silverfish grey. During the coach's first period of traffic this colour gradually changed to a brownish grey.

Exactly how I remember SR emu roof colours when fresh from overhaul and after a spell in traffic.

 

I have posted an image of my coach, before it entered traffic which gives an idea of the colour when new.

Is BR light grey the same colour as Southern Railway roof grey as applied in the late 1930s?

[trevor7598]

Is BR light grey the same colour as Southern Railway roof grey as applied in the late 1930s?

 

I don't know the answer to that. Colour images from SR days are not common.

But, I am sure Ashford, Lancing and Eastleigh would have perpetuated SR

practice in BR days.

I used to live close to the Portsmouth direct line, and clearly remember newly

outshopped BIL, HAL and COR units with silver/grey roofs,which quickly weathered

to a much darker tone.

 

I undertook the research at the time to ensure 3363's restoration was as accurate as possible.

[Jack P]

When I repainted my LWSR rebuilds, I opted for a dark/dirty grey, which I assumed would have just been somewhat standard after a few years without overhaul. Do we think this would be accurate-ish? As I plan to respray my Birdcages roofs the same colour. 

 

[Compound2632]

P1130626.JPGIf I could enter into the roof colour debate, my Birdcage brake No 3363 has a specially ordered

BR spec. roof paint. The label on the tins reads ' BR spec low build roof paint, light grey'.

This was specially prepared by Williamsons.

When I inspected the paint ( to see why it differed from ordinary paint ) I discovered that it contained

minute iron particles. When applied to the coach roof canvas the whole effect was a slightly metallic 

silverish grey. During the coach's first period of traffic this colour gradually changed to a brownish grey.

Exactly how I remember SR emu roof colours when fresh from overhaul and after a spell in traffic.

 

I have posted an image of my coach, before it entered traffic which gives an idea of the colour when new.

 

Without knowing much about SECR carriages, I assume that when built, the roof would have been timber boards covered with canvas - was that still the case for your carriage in (a) the condition you started from and (b) as restored, or © is my assumption wrong anyway?

[Robin Brasher]

If you are modelling a heritage railway it is probably best to paint the coach roofs in the original livery without weathering. On the Swanage Railway the Mk1 coaches on the dining car sets are still light grey. I cannot understand why this is as no-one cleans the roofs. Perhaps there is less pollution on a heritage line but it looks like it takes more than a few weeks before the roofs change to a dirty grey brown colour.

 

Looking forward to receiving my first Bachmann South Eastern and Chatham coach and my centre coach in Southern Railway livery.

[trevor7598]

Without knowing much about SECR carriages, I assume that when built, the roof would have been timber boards covered with canvas - was that still the case for your carriage in (a) the condition you started from and (b) as restored, or © is my assumption wrong anyway?

 

You are correct the roof was and still is pine boards, covered with canvas.

However many boards had to be replaced owing to rot. Fortunately some SR

PMV's were being broken up at the time, and these provided some superb quality boards.

Edited December 15, 2017 by trevor7598

[Miss Prism]

Here are some grey roofs, June 1957. The Hawksworth behind the loco is the most recently painted, and its roof is a lighter grey than that used in the late GWR era.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8502068681/

 

 

[Wickham Green]

I don't know the answer to that. Colour images from SR days are not common.

But, I am sure Ashford, Lancing and Eastleigh would have perpetuated SR

practice in BR days.

I used to live close to the Portsmouth direct line, and clearly remember newly

outshopped BIL, HAL and COR units with silver/grey roofs,which quickly weathered

to a much darker tone.

 

I undertook the research at the time to ensure 3363's restoration was as accurate as possible.

Why do you want a colour image for a grey roof ...... ? .................

[trevor7598]

Why do you want a colour image for a grey roof ...... ? .................

 

50 shades of grey.

[Robin Brasher]

It is a good point about not needing a colour photograph for a grey roof.  For instance there is a picture of a D class hauling a birdcage set at Sevenoaks on 3rd April 1926 in plate 76 of 'Orpington to Sevenoaks' by the Middleton Press. The coach roofs would originally have been white but in the picture they are dark grey due to soot from the engine.

 

The grey weathering seems to wear off when a carriage is taken out of service and exposed to rain. On the front cover of the book is an ex SECR coach in the refuge siding at Chelsfield station which seems to have a white roof.

 

Anyway the Bachmann coaches have got grey roofs which is correct for Southern coaches in the late 1930s. A little weathering on the roofs would not come amiss.

[Compound2632]

Here are some grey roofs, June 1957. The Hawksworth behind the loco is the most recently painted, and its roof is a lighter grey than that used in the late GWR era.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8502068681/

 

Typical GWR enthusiast - completely ignoring the really interesting pre-grouping southern region carriages in the background...

[billbedford]

Here are some grey roofs, June 1957. The Hawksworth behind the loco is the most recently painted, and its roof is a lighter grey than that used in the late GWR era.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/64518788@N05/8502068681/

 

 

But Hawksworth's coaches had steel sheeted roofs, so you expect the treatment of the roofs to differ from earlier wooden roofed coaches.

[Miss Prism]

Metal roofs were around on the GWR before Hawksworth, Bill, so whilst the type of paint used might have been influenced by the material, the colour of the paint was an independent factor. I was not ignoring the really interesting pre-grouping southern region carriages in the background either, Stephen. On the contrary. I was merely pointing out that BR's colour of choice for roofs was intentionally lighter than that used previously by many pre-nationalisation companies, and secondly, although it was obvious from the picture, that many different greys is an authentic depiction.

[billbedford]

 

Metal roofs were around on the GWR before Hawksworth, Bill, so whilst the type of paint used might have been influenced by the material, the colour of the paint was an independent factor.

 

 

Yes but the paint was formulated differently, probably with zinc white instead of lead white. Zinc white would have given more corrosion resistance and would not have darkened in service.

[Wickham Green]

Typical GWR enthusiast - completely ignoring the really interesting pre-grouping southern region carriages in the background...

....... three 58' LSWR rebuilds ( a-la Hornby ) and an LSWR 56 foot brake : there'll be another one of those out of shot to the left. 

[Fireline]

That noise you can hear in the background is me sawing at my wrists.....

[Guest spet0114]

...

Edited December 18, 2017 by spet0114

[Oldddudders]

Andy Y has posted the December Bachmann Incoming model list today, and the SR olive composite coach is listed.

[Paul.Uni]

Just got an email from Kernow, my SE&CR livered Brake Composite and Composite are on their way. Brake Third to follow

[coachmann]

The Southern Railway specificaton for coach roofs from 1923 showed......

 

E1: White, which quickly tured cream and then dirty brown (up to early 1930's)

E2: Grey (later 1930's).

 

Early LMS roof paint for wood & canvass roofs started as a protective white paint paste to which black was added plus various other additives including aluminium powder (fine varnish powder).

Stanier coaches introduced metal roofs (already used on all-steel coaches) and so these and all repaints received two coats of metallic roof paint. This represented a change in colour on wood & canvass roofs from the original grey and black scheme. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by coachmann

[tender]

Order Processed, 39-600 60' SECR Birdcage brake composite 1174 in SE&CR dark lake.  

 

​Hopefully my SERC Livery H or C class will have something to pull over Christmas.

[phil-b259]

The Southern Railway specificaton for coach roofs from 1923 showed......

 

E1: White, which quickly tured cream and then dirty brown (up to early 1930's)

E2: Grey (later 1930's).

 

 

So based on that Bachmann's SR birdcage vehicles represent the mid - late 1930s condition.

 

A further question comes to mind - we know that the rebuilt ex LSWR stock produced by Hornby was turned out minus any lining with a grey roof - did the Birdcages retain full lining until Bulleid / WW2 enforced changes occurred or did they come in unlined versions too?

 

Personally it would have been nice to see them come with off white roofs to match Hornby's Olive Maunsell designs and Kernow's Olive Gate stock.