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SECR Birdcage Coaches


Bill
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It'd be nice if someone would make a model of an H tank to go with the birdcage coaches.

I'm pretty sure someone is, and I'm pretty sure it is Hornby, proabably as part of their 2017 announcements.

 

John

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Here is some interesting prototype roof detail I found on the edge of a negative.

 

This is taken in 1952 and is not of some decrepit specimens in a disused siding.  They are at London Bridge in service.  I have never seen roof boards so prominent on coaches.  If you modelled them like this and did such a poor job in painting them you would be, quite rightly, criticised,  Shows there is a prototype for everything.

 

Anyone know what vehicles they would be?

 

Tony

post-4594-0-76448500-1467066138_thumb.jpg

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HI Tony,

 

The coach furthest from the camera is a 60ft Birdcage brake lavatory third ( formerly 2nd/3rd composite brake ).

It is of the same type that Bachmann are producing.

Odd that the roof vents are different on the two coaches - either that's not uncommon or it's the same set as shown in https://mikemorant.s...nes/i-6WWHvCq/A somewhere further up this thread ! : it's not that the two coaches are from different sets as they couldn't be split in traffic because of the electrics ( the brakes had dymanos and not the composite - or vice versa - or something like that ).

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Here is some interesting prototype roof detail I found on the edge of a negative.

 

This is taken in 1952 and is not of some decrepit specimens in a disused siding.  They are at London Bridge in service.  I have never seen roof boards so prominent on coaches.  If you modelled them like this and did such a poor job in painting them you would be, quite rightly, criticised,  Shows there is a prototype for everything.

 

Anyone know what vehicles they would be?

 

Tony

Good photo, shows the wooden ribs showing through the roof felt well.

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The odd layout of the roof vents on the coach furthest from the camera give a clue to the rather odd

layout of the interior of BTL. Starting from the far end, there are a pair of vents for the guards van,

then three compartments with no corridor. Then there is a short corridor allowing more passengers

access to the former third class lavatory,than in previous trio sets. there are three vents across the roof in this

area, two in the compartments and one in the corridor. Then we come to the two lavatories with a vent each

plus water tank filler. The nearest two compartments are former second class, and both have access to

the other lavatory, again via a short corridor.

In the earlier 54ft sets only the compartments next to the lavatory had access to it.

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Odd that the roof vents are different on the two coaches - either that's not uncommon or it's the same set as shown in https://mikemorant.s...nes/i-6WWHvCq/A somewhere further up this thread ! : it's not that the two coaches are from different sets as they couldn't be split in traffic because of the electrics ( the brakes had dymanos and not the composite - or vice versa - or something like that ).

Just to clarify the dynamo business, the 60' sets were built with dynamos on the ( centre ) Composites ONLY - but "In March 1931 the .... Board approved a proposal to modify the electric lighting ..... Because the .... sets were .... used on slower services .... the single dynamo .... was unable to supply sufficient current and so an additional dynamo with extra battery capacity was fitted to each set .... by March 1933." according to David Gould. He doesn't say where the extra bits were located but some later photos, at least, seem to show a dynamo under the Brake Third and the batteries were probably there too : It'll be interesting to see how Bachmann interpret this - the Maunsell Green sets would be correct with or without the extra electrics but not the brown or red ones ! ( Can I have a set in malachite, please ? )

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Just to clarify the dynamo business, the 60' sets were built with dynamos on the ( centre ) Composites ONLY - but "In March 1931 the .... Board approved a proposal to modify the electric lighting ..... Because the .... sets were .... used on slower services .... the single dynamo .... was unable to supply sufficient current and so an additional dynamo with extra battery capacity was fitted to each set .... by March 1933." according to David Gould. He doesn't say where the extra bits were located but some later photos, at least, seem to show a dynamo under the Brake Third and the batteries were probably there too : It'll be interesting to see how Bachmann interpret this - the Maunsell Green sets would be correct with or without the extra electrics but not the brown or red ones ! ( Can I have a set in malachite, please ? )

 

Yes, it was the brake third that gained a dynamo and batteries. this left the centre composite to power itself and the BTL.

In addition, when built the 60 ft sets had the lighting wiring laid in trunking on top of the roof , this was later transferred

inside. Bachmann are to produce two versions of roof to reflect this change. And have also taken into account the early

and later dynamo / battery arrangements.

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Good photo, shows the wooden ribs showing through the roof felt well.

 

 

I don't think so. Roofs were constructed by placing longitudinal planks over ribs (roof hoops). What seems to have happened here is that the white lead painted over the canvas covering has worn to the point where water has go into and expanded the stopping between the planks.

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Are Bachmann still making these? Their updates have stated "in the design office" for SO long, I am beginning to believe the coaches actually work there....

Maybe it's the coaches that are SO long ( 60' ) ......... so long they can't actually get them in the office ??!?

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What they said in March to me was they were almost there, they had a CAD spinning round on a TV screen, saying their design office was a bit of a sticking point  but have strengthened that department, they are still on going... might see something end of this year or maybe early next, that's what they said to me in March Ally Pally.
Had a 3D print of the H2 Atlantic at the Bluebell model show last weekend

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I'm pretty sure someone is, and I'm pretty sure it is Hornby, proabably as part of their 2017 announcements.

 

John

 

Ignoring short term factors, I would say the H tank is more likely to emerge from Bachmann than Hornby.

 

If you ignore the lead time issues Bachmann already have suitable stock (the birdcage)s in the pipeline plus they sell the C and E4 classes with which the H tanks regularly worked with, which makes the H an attractive proposition for them.

 

Hornby by contrast have gone down the western section with their SR releases - the M7, 700 and the rebuilt ex LSWR compartment stock for example. The big issue with them is their finances and whether they feel like making an entry into a part of the SR that they have tended to ignore henceforth is worth it.

 

On the real Southern Railway the Brighton main line was very much a dividing line between the two spheres. M7s were hardly ever seen east of it - where the H tanks held sway on Pull Push work with birdcage stock, while to the west of the BML  it was all M7s and ex LSWR stuff.

 

Ex LSBCR locos tended to mingle with both SECR OR ex LSWR stock depending in whether their duties took them east or west of the BML, however given their coaching stock was mostly air braked it tended to be scraped upon electrification rather than cascaded as was the case for ex SECR & LSWR stock (both vacuum braked)

 

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There are several ex-LSWR engines running on my (roughly) Brighton-Eastbourne region layout, but that's mainly due to the availability of RTR early 40s era SR engines. As more ex LBSCR & SECR engines become available I may retire and possibly sell on the LSWR ones as I have less interest in them than more Easterly based engines. An H would be most welcome :) 

Edited by GreenGiraffe22
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There are several ex-LSWR engines running on my (roughly) Brighton-Eastbourne region layout, but that's mainly due to the availability of RTR early 40s era SR engines. As more ex LBSCR & SECR engines become available I may retire and possibly sell on the LSWR ones as I have less interest in them than more Easterly based engines. An H would be most welcome :)

Don't forget that a number of small-tender T9s spent their summers on the Eastern Section in the thirties and late forties ........ I've never seen any evidence of 700s in the area though.

( I'm still trying to fine-tune my excuse for running an M7 ...... as for the Bachmann 'Nelson' ................................ ? .................... )

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Don't forget that a number of small-tender T9s spent their summers on the Eastern Section in the thirties and late forties ........ I've never seen any evidence of 700s in the area though.

( I'm still trying to fine-tune my excuse for running an M7 ...... as for the Bachmann 'Nelson' ................................ ? .................... )

Well I do have a short tendered T9 so I guess that can stay, My M7 has Eastbourne headcodes on it, and asiee from uploading photos on this forum, no train experts are going to be viewing the layout so meh ! The 700 I have is nearly always on military duties so that's the excuse for that, the "war effort" and all. 

 

But my layout isn't that big, so when I add Bachmanns new C Class , E4 and future Brighton Atlantic, as well as Hornby's future Merchant Navy (And if / when someone decides to produce an H) to join my existing E4, C Class, Q1 & Schools, I'll have plenty to run the layout without the need for my LSWR engines. 

Edited by GreenGiraffe22
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Don't forget M7s did get across as far as Tunbridge Wells West, although they were much less popular than the H Class. 

You should have heard what SW division men thought of the GWR Panniers they got to replace their M7s (to summarize politely: hard-riding, draughty and cramped); by comparison, where they received Ivatt 2MT or Standard 3MT 2-6-2Ts, they seemed quite happy!

 

John

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Hornby have shown a picture of them measuring what appears to be the roof of one.

A 'pagoda' cab roof could be an R1, of course ( 'bout time for a re-issue ! ) or one of those chunky Js .......... though I don't know where they'd find either to measure !!?! ( There WERE proposals for a replica R1 or three but I think the whole 'Remembrance Line' proposal's been effectively scuppered.)

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