RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 2, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2010 Hello, I have been toying for a little while on treating myself to a new HD Camcorder. Having read various reviews and done some comparisons, no clear products have emerged as clear winners. I have been looking at the ranges from JVC, Canon and Panasonic which are SD card based. As I am undecided I thought it would be good to gather some views and thoughts from those that own these items. So if you own an HD Camcorder your input would be appreciated. Cheers. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWT442 Posted January 2, 2010 Share Posted January 2, 2010 I own a HD Camcorder, though not a branded one. The one I have is a Megxon V5600HD, which records in 720p. It also has the ability to take pictures at 16 megapixels (to be fair, I get a better shot from my 7.1mp Fuji camera!) The quality is good but newer cameras are so much better. Sound quality and night filming are not it's strong points though. It also has a built in MP3 player for whatever reason. There's a link in my signature to my YouTube page if you want to see what the quality is like. I purchased it over 2 years ago when HD cameras where fairly new and expensive, so I thought it was a bargain at ??100! A pic of the cam: http://www.globalmed...a03gm7/s2l1.jpg I'd be interested in hearing about others HD Camcorders as well, as I plan to replace mine soon. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I've had a Sony HDR-SR5 for a couple of years and am generally very pleased with it. ? No doubt two years on there's better for the same price or less. ? The only regret I have with mine is that it only has the LCD screen, no eyepiece viewfinder, for filming and it can be difficult to see it clearly in bright conditions outdoors.? Arthur Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 As a budget option I went for one of these 1080p HD camcorders in October - http://www.aldi.co.u.../2827_11624.htm - they may still be around as I saw one reduced to ??99.99 in one of my local shops just before Xmas; calling their helpline will normally advise if any are in stock in your area. I've uploaded a couple of the original MP4 files to youtube -? - 12"/ft; taken in shade on October afternoon so not ideal lighting. - N gauge, taken under exhibition lighting. Uploading to youtube does degrade the quality a bit but for the price it isn't bad. Negatives Autofocus tends to hunt a lot under lower lighting, more pronounced at longer zoom settings. Max of 4GB SD card size, good enough for around 90 mins recording though. No viewfinder, only LCD screen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 Thanks guys for your input so far. Really interesting to see those examples on YouTube Andy. They look really good quality especially for the price. The ones I was looking at started to come in at the ??400-??500 bracket. I now wonder what you actually get for the extra dosh and whether I would use the features enough to justify the investment. My main priorities are good picture (obviously) but at least stereo sound recording, maybe 5.1 though not essential. Some good basic features and ease of use. I'll never be up there with the Attenboroughs so don't need expensive features I will hardly or even ever use. I guess the next step is to narrow down a selection and then go shopping to try them out in my hand. Little tip, when buying cameras I always take a memory card with me so I can take example shots home to examine on the PC or print off to test the quality of the image. I shall be doing the same with the camcorder search. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Garry - See my reply to Hughs question in the Special Interests =>Photography thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hi, Thanks for that, did not even realise there was a Photography section on here lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseboy72 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 I have a Canon XH-G1, a 3 x 1/3rd" CCD HDV camcorder with 20:1 lens. About ??4000... I also have a Panasonic HDC 15 (I think, its at work at the mo.) SD card camcorder with 3x 1/6th"ccd, bought from Currys end of line for ??350. Both are supposed to be 1080i HD. The Canon looks great until I go to work and get the ??30K Full HD VariCam out ! but with a bit of decent lighting, looks very good indeed. The Panasonic looks "OK" at normal light levels, but gives good results outdoors or with a few K of lighting. The smaller lens and CCDs limit depth of field and ultimate quality, but for most domestic use, it looks great. CMOS based ??99 "HD" camcorders have a couple of drawbacks. 1: Mainly only 25 or 30P, not 50 or 60i. This means they only record 30 frames, not 60 fields. Motion therefore looks a but jerky. 2. CMOS has a slower readback, so the image will skew from top to bottom. Even the CMOS HD Film Camera RED suffers from this. 3. Lens. A good lens is 30K+. My Canon camera has a good Flourite lens, albiet telephoto, not true zoom and the Panasonic an acceptable lens without too much barrelling etc. The cheapo camcorders have very poor lenses with all sorts of abberations and focus issues etc. Our Broadcast spec VariCams have lens correction built into the camera. It talks to the lens and corrects for known distortion. You won't find this for ??99... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 I have a Canon XH-G1, a 3 x 1/3rd" CCD HDV camcorder with 20:1 lens. About ??4000... I am not thinking of spending anything near that. Our Broadcast spec VariCams have lens correction built into the camera. It talks to the lens and corrects for known distortion. You won't find this for ??99... Would anyone expect that in a ??99 pound camera? Some of the information here I have not got a clue what it means. And we cannot really compare the market I am aiming at with a camera that costs ??30,000. If I was buying a 3 door hatchback, I have no need to know what a Porsche can do So can I respectfully ask we keep things in perspective, otherwise I will not have a clue what people are talking about The smaller lens and CCDs limit depth of field and ultimate quality, but for most domestic use, it looks great. CMOS based ??99 "HD" camcorders have a couple of drawbacks. 1: Mainly only 25 or 30P, not 50 or 60i. This means they only record 30 frames, not 60 fields. Motion therefore looks a but jerky. 2. CMOS has a slower readback, so the image will skew from top to bottom. Even the CMOS HD Film Camera RED suffers from this. Thank you for explaining this. These are all new terms to me so still finding my feet. I was looking at the Canon EOS500 D-SLR that does 1080p and 720p HD video recording and downloaded some example videos of each resolution. I think the 1080p was at 20fps and the 720p was at 30fps. The 720p was smooth and looked ok to my eye. But the 1080p at 20fps was very jerky and highlighted to me how important the frame rate is, not just to look at the quality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg06003 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hi Garry, The following site gives good indepth reviews camcorderinfo. Being US some of the model designations are not exactly as sold over here but it does contain a serious number of reviews of both current and obsolete models. For buying, the usual suspects + try Ebuyer as they occassionally have a bargain. Usual disclaimer. One tip from experience - if you intend to do a lot of outdoors filming then seriously consider an external mic - this will require that the camera has an external mic socket. Finally, dont forget a decent tripod - sorry if I seem to adding to the costs HTH Bruce Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseboy72 Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Sorry didn't mean to muddy the waters ! My point is that "HD" Camcorders are often a million miles away from True HD. Just because they have 720 or 1080 lines does not mean good quality. A good SD camcorder may well perform better in average light levels than the equivalent HD version because the lower number of sensors per square inch means they are more sensitive and will produce a less noisy picture for a given light level. A Canon XM2 produces SD pictures to rival my G1 and can be picked up for about ??1000. I would avoid using a digital camera in video mode. The advantages of a better lens wil be overshadowed by poor sound support, "Filmic" type gamma settings suited to stills photography and limited frame rate choices. Many cameras will only do 30FPS. Not a lot of good if you want to use the output for viewing at 1080i 50Hz The Panasonic range is very good, certainly better than the Toshiba & Flip offerings. They look and feel more like a conventional camcorder and in my view produce more consisent results. The one question I should have asked is what you are wanting to film ! There are lots of other factors that might have a major impact including battery life, media storage, image stabilisation and sound support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted January 3, 2010 Share Posted January 3, 2010 Gary, I have a Panasonic SDR-H250. I am pleased with it as it does what I want, for a reasonable price. My only complaint is a lack of viewfinder, but then I'm old fashioned.... This was taken a last year, hand held and compressed for YouTube, but it may give you a feel for quality... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 Sorry didn't mean to muddy the waters ! No problem, no offence intended I know what its like to have an indepth knowledge of something and then trying to explain it to someone else. I am into PC's and like building my own but if I try and explain the technologies involved to someone else its very easy to slip into technical jargon and pitch it at too lower level. My point is that "HD" Camcorders are often a million miles away from True HD. Just because they have 720 or 1080 lines does not mean good quality. A good SD camcorder may well perform better in average light levels than the equivalent HD version because the lower number of sensors per square inch means they are more sensitive and will produce a less noisy picture for a given light level. A Canon XM2 produces SD pictures to rival my G1 and can be picked up for about ??1000. Can I just check, when you say "SD" you are meaning Standard Definition rather than referring to SD card cameras? I would avoid using a digital camera in video mode. The advantages of a better lens wil be overshadowed by poor sound support, "Filmic" type gamma settings suited to stills photography and limited frame rate choices. Many cameras will only do 30FPS. Not a lot of good if you want to use the output for viewing at 1080i 50Hz Yes I have noticed the ones I have seen only support mono, but even if they were stereo the microphone would probably not be as good as a dedicated camcorder units. What do you suggest for a good average frame rate to watch on a full HD TV? The Panasonic range is very good, certainly better than the Toshiba & Flip offerings. They look and feel more like a conventional camcorder and in my view produce more consisent results. I must admit to favouring the Panasonic offerings at the moment. The one question I should have asked is what you are wanting to film ! There are lots of other factors that might have a major impact including battery life, media storage, image stabilisation and sound support. Nothing too serious, family events, railway events etc. Indoor and outdoor shots I have a 1080 HDTV and attached surround system so it would be good to get good sound definition, especially if I can wangle a 5.1 camcorder. How effective is 5.1 on a camcorder , does it have good channel separation or is it a gimmick and better to stick with good quality stereo? I have a good JVC MiniDV camera which gives good pictures and sound etc but is badly let down by battery life. I bought a higher rated battery but its like a brick on the back, makes using the viewfinder impossible and recently,shows little advantage over the standard battery for keeping a good charge. Thanks for your help. Garry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 3, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 Gary, I have a Panasonic SDR-H250. I am pleased with it as it does what I want, for a reasonable price. My only complaint is a lack of viewfinder, but then I'm old fashioned.... This was taken a last year, hand held and compressed for YouTube, but it may give you a feel for quality... Thanks for this example. It looks like the picture is too narrow, would I be right in thinking its recorded in 16:9 but does not show it on YouTube? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 3, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 3, 2010 I have used a Panasonic SD5 for getting on for two years now, and find it very good. Its been upgraded several times so not sure what the current model is, probably the 20. Here's a video shot on it, choose HD to see it in high quality (the original is smooth!) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lU8RDlTA_s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony W Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Hi Garry I'm looking for a high definition camcorder for my daughter at the moment. She doesn't want to pay a lot (she's still a student) but I've told her to go for HD. I'm currently looking at the Panasonic TM 10. Its got some good reviews and for her first camcorder it should be OK (she's well used to using mine, which isn't HD so I might get a bit jealous). I'm also looking at the Sony CX105 but the reviews all seem to favour the Panasonic. Regards Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2010 Thanks Beast for the clip as its a good way of comparing HD and SD on the same film. Current favourite for me is this http://uk.sanyo.com/...View/VPC-FH1EBK Or same spec but smaller body http://uk.sanyo.com/...w/VPC-HD2000EBK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 If you possibly can, give them both a try and see which fits the hand better and is more comfortable to operate - My non-HD one was bought from QVC after seeing it demoed, and I'm perfectly happy with it- but it does depend on which way up you prefer your hand to be whilst operating it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2010 If you possibly can, give them both a try and see which fits the hand better and is more comfortable to operate - My non-HD one was bought from QVC after seeing it demoed, and I'm perfectly happy with it- but it does depend on which way up you prefer your hand to be whilst operating it Exactly. I am off out tonight to Currys and co to try them out. I am used to the usual barrel design so will be interested to see how the gun handle design feels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Look forward to hearing your thoughts - I would find the barrel design uncomfortable, but that is because I have some damaged muscle near my right shoulder which makes holding it up for any length of time uncomfortable, with the "gun" design I can hold it lower with the screen angled up so that I can see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2010 I have read loads of web articles and reviews and I am getting to the stage of being suffocated in numbers and stats. Its now time to try stuff out and see how it feels , looks, performs etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
revengeofthecat Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 Bit late(!) but the EOS 7D does very good HD video - added bonus being lens selection, very good low light capability and full manual control (but short recording time per clip compared to camcorder). Camcorder used by SWMBO (ATM) is Canon HG20 (drawback is no viewfinder, only LCD screen - higher models have viewfinder). Wide angle lenses are available but most full HD camcorders record in their own format (i.e. need proper software to edit). And 60GB fills up quickly! good luck with your choice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2010 Well went to Currys...............bobbins. Only 3 HD cameras on show and neither were the ones I was wanting to see. To be fair they have probably yet to restock after Christmas. The chap was helpful though. I was asking do you see much difference between a camera say around the ??250 mark and the higher end ??500-600 price range or were you just paying for gimmicks. He rigged up a Sanyo 720p camera and a Sony 1080P to two HDTV's He then focused on the same part of the store so you could compare the images. The 720p model was good but struggled to focus on some areas and even without any zoom was not focusing sharp enough on things in the foreground and background. Also the colours took on a sort of artifical look. The red in the currys sign was very bright and distorted. The Sony 1080p model however blew me away. The colours were more natural, the zoom smoother, the focusing quicker and more accurate. Everything was pin sharp, foreground and background. It had an 80gb hard drive on board and would store 9 hours at full quality or 33 hours at the lowest quality. This got me thinking, maybe I should not discount hard drive models just yet. A 32gb SD card of the right speed will cost around the ??60 mark. So maybe its more cost effective to have a reasonable hard drive on board He also stated that February is usually the time the Camcorder ranges are refreshed and updated by the main manufacturers so I think it would be wise to wait a few more weeks to see if the ones I like reduce in price or for the same price a better model comes out. He also let me in on a little pricing secret of how to spot when items are about to reduce in price in Currys etc stores. But that would be telling lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
two tone green Posted January 4, 2010 Share Posted January 4, 2010 All the new gadgets are due to be shown to the public at the CES show on 7th Jan. Cameras, video, TV's, laptops, everything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Garry D100 Posted January 4, 2010 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 4, 2010 All the new gadgets are due to be shown to the public at the CES show on 7th Jan. Cameras, video, TV's, laptops, everything. Thanks for that Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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