RMweb Premium 31A Posted August 8, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 8, 2017 You're welcome, Kevin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hamlin Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I see that Crecy are showing volume 2 on their website as being available late August Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 I see that Crecy are showing volume 2 on their website as being available late August No, a month later on Friday 28th September - http://www.crecy.co.uk/lner-passenger-train-formations-vol-2 The first volume was rather controversial in places, you could readily work out which of the two authors was factual and which at times was occupying his own reality... let's hope there's no such digressions in this volume - especially not at that price. It's rumoured however that in amongst the GE Section information it may be averred that the Pigeon Vans only ever carried fruit and veg to market... we shall have to wait and see for ourselves. Serendipitous that Hugh Longworth's first volume (LNER & GWR) on the pre-grouping coaching stock that survived to BR days is due out at around the same time - an expensive month awaits for those interested in coaching stock. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted July 22, 2018 Share Posted July 22, 2018 One of the authors has a serious hang up relating to Pigeon vans , various rantings are available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Not Jeremy Posted July 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 23, 2018 - especially not at that price. Really? What price do you think this new book should be then, o wise one? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 - especially not at that price. Really? What price do you think this new book should be then, o wise one? A price that will attract sales but only if the content is accurate and factual - £35 is about the upper limit; the £45 cover price for volume 1 was a bit steep. Volume one was also withdrawn temporarily by Amazon through a Trade Descriptions Act complaint, it being considered not as described. I and two colleagues interested in and reasonably knowledgeable about LNER coaching stock compiled a substantial critique of parts of volume 1. One of the author's opinions have attracted substantial criticism on this and other forums, opinions strongly held even when primary sources have evidenced to the contrary. I'll have a good peruse first before committing to purchase. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 For those of us seeking to increase our knowledge on a fairly specialised subject without researching primary sources, vol 1 seemed ideal. Has there been any update/comment by the authors/publishes in the light of the reported deficiencies? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Yes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 I think I've had these two on pre order for about two years. I missed the first run of Volume One and wasn't going to pay extortionate amounts for it from places like Amazon. By extortionate I mean much inflated above RRP such as this. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Trains-Formations-1923-67-Hardcover/dp/B00NPOI2G2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1532354210&sr=1-1&keywords=lner+passenger+trains+and+formations Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2750Papyrus Posted July 23, 2018 Share Posted July 23, 2018 Yes. Thanks for posting this link - quite a time since I looked at this sit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Turpin Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 ....I .....wasn't going to pay extortionate amounts for it... https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Trains-Formations-1923-67-Hardcover/dp/B00NPOI2G2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1532354210&sr=1-1&keywords=lner+passenger+trains+and+formations Jason Ho ho you can have my copy for £169.99 (a snip compared to those two quoted) I wouldn't sell it really! Though if someone really does want to offer me daft money for it I might just re-consider! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 A price that will attract sales but only if the content is accurate and factual - £35 is about the upper limit; the £45 cover price for volume 1 was a bit steep. Volume one was also withdrawn temporarily by Amazon through a Trade Descriptions Act complaint, it being considered not as described. I and two colleagues interested in and reasonably knowledgeable about LNER coaching stock compiled a substantial critique of parts of volume 1. One of the author's opinions have attracted substantial criticism on this and other forums, opinions strongly held even when primary sources have evidenced to the contrary. I'll have a good peruse first before committing to purchase. So when does the book by you and your mates come out, then, that will blow the Banks & Carter opus (Vol. 1 and now apparently, at last, imminent Vol. 2) clean out of the water? I ask because, although I'd agree it is not perfect (and for the record, it was partly me that put Mr Banks onto some of the issues with the Mansfield Buffet Express as described - which he acknowledged with every courtesy and subsequently addressed on his own website), it was and remains so far as I'm aware the only published work to address the subject matter in anything like this depth and range. And the book does frankly acknowledge that the availability of 'primary sources' is distinctly patchy for some areas and aspects compared to others. Therefore - for now at least - 'warts and all' it is as near as we have to a definitive published work on LNER and BR (ER) passenger trains and formations. As such, my own bank account will gladly take the hit for Vol. 2. But then, apparently, you have "built a better mousetrap" ... so presumably the (publishing) World is already beating a path to your door? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 I think I've had these two on pre order for about two years. I missed the first run of Volume One and wasn't going to pay extortionate amounts for it from places like Amazon. By extortionate I mean much inflated above RRP such as this. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Passenger-Trains-Formations-1923-67-Hardcover/dp/B00NPOI2G2/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1532354210&sr=1-1&keywords=lner+passenger+trains+and+formations Jason Worth pointing out perhaps that silly prices like those currently quoted on Amazon are not attributable to the original publishers, and still less to the authors, who would no doubt dearly love to get their hands on a 'cut' of such extortionate figures. I understand from another context that this kind of thing happens on Amazon occasionally, for some sort of 'technical reasons' I didn't begin to understand. But if Volume 1 is genuinely still available from this source at such a mad figure, then somebody out there must think it's some good! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted July 24, 2018 Share Posted July 24, 2018 So when does the book by you and your mates come out, then, that will blow the Banks & Carter opus (Vol. 1 and now apparently, at last, imminent Vol. 2) clean out of the water? I ask because, although I'd agree it is not perfect (and for the record, it was partly me that put Mr Banks onto some of the issues with the Mansfield Buffet Express as described - which he acknowledged with every courtesy and subsequently addressed on his own website), it was and remains so far as I'm aware the only published work to address the subject matter in anything like this depth and range. And the book does frankly acknowledge that the availability of 'primary sources' is distinctly patchy for some areas and aspects compared to others. Therefore - for now at least - 'warts and all' it is as near as we have to a definitive published work on LNER and BR (ER) passenger trains and formations. As such, my own bank account will gladly take the hit for Vol. 2. But then, apparently, you have "built a better mousetrap" ... so presumably the (publishing) World is already beating a path to your door? Contributions already published my son, principally through the LNER Society by way of Journal articles, reproductions of Carriage Working Notices and similar, but also through responding to queries on various forums. Additionally preparation of Diagrams and accompanying notes for some of the carriages produced by Hornby made freely available on forums and the compilation of alternate running numbers and explanatory notes for the sheets produced by Cambridge Custom Transfers... Much of the descriptive text written by Mr Banks around the design, development and production of LNER coaching stock had already been written by Michael Harris and Nick Campling - whose factual accounts are based on research and records at the National Archives and similar sources, not personal interpretation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Worth pointing out perhaps that silly prices like those currently quoted on Amazon are not attributable to the original publishers, and still less to the authors, who would no doubt dearly love to get their hands on a 'cut' of such extortionate figures. I understand from another context that this kind of thing happens on Amazon occasionally, for some sort of 'technical reasons' I didn't begin to understand. But if Volume 1 is genuinely still available from this source at such a mad figure, then somebody out there must think it's some good! Oh I know the reasons why that happens on Amazon. It's all down to the software. But I've already ordered both of them from a reliable supplier. It was just that promised stocks failed to materialise from the publisher and it's been showing as "Out of Stock - more expected soon" for two years. I haven't been charged for them so no big deal. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted July 25, 2018 Share Posted July 25, 2018 Contributions already published my son, principally through the LNER Society by way of Journal articles, reproductions of Carriage Working Notices and similar, but also through responding to queries on various forums. Additionally preparation of Diagrams and accompanying notes for some of the carriages produced by Hornby made freely available on forums and the compilation of alternate running numbers and explanatory notes for the sheets produced by Cambridge Custom Transfers... Much of the descriptive text written by Mr Banks around the design, development and production of LNER coaching stock had already been written by Michael Harris and Nick Campling - whose factual accounts are based on research and records at the National Archives and similar sources, not personal interpretation. Ah, so 'published' in the sense of made available to a very limited, specialised and already-committed readership then, not ... shall we call it ... a "proper book", serious but accessible to a general readership and capable of inspiring them to model the subject matter and/or leaving them wanting perhaps to become more specialised in their knowledge? I should stress that I'm certainly not seeking to diminish your own scholarship in this area if it is indeed as stated - but in a way that's the point - I'm "interested" in this subject matter, and am modelling it, but life is simply too short to follow so very many diverse but restricted potential sources in the vague hope something interesting and relevant may turn-up. I was once told, many years ago and in another context, that if one wants to consult a real, 100% genuine 'expert' on any subject under the sun, one will find that there will currently be only about six or seven people in the whole country who could genuinely lay claim to that label - only one or two of whom will actually have managed to get accepted for publication a recognised printed work on the subject; and the rest will hate them for it. Having no knowledge of Mr Banks' and Mr Carter's working methods I cannot really comment on your last sentence, save to say that from my brief correspondence with the former it became apparent he at least attempts to be very thorough and explore multiple sources (a document he sent me for information was on something like 'version 35'). The point of their book was not, as I understood it, "the design, development and production of LNER coaching stock", as you suggest, but rather the operational deployment and utilisation of such stock - for which I would imagine a summary of the design, development and production would be a useful explanatory section but, in the circumstances, not necessarily requiring vast amounts of 'original research' in areas already well-covered and published by others. One might as well accuse Messrs Harris and Campling of not paying sufficient attention to the aspects Banks and Carter covered - the answer appears to be that the (fairly) serious student who has neither the time, money nor facility to do their own archival research needs to consult both. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon4470 Posted August 31, 2018 Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just seen on the Crecy website that Vol2 will now be available on 30 th November. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) I and two colleagues interested in and reasonably knowledgeable about LNER coaching stock compiled a substantial critique of parts of volume 1. One of the author's opinions have attracted substantial criticism on this and other forums, opinions strongly held even when primary sources have evidenced to the contrary. Was that critique ever published? I helped compile a list of caption errors, of which there are a disappointingly large number, which was intended for a Society journal but, for various reasons, it was not published. I can't publish the list myself as my work is mixed in with that of two others. When the authors state words to the effect that analysis of photographs was key and yet cannot tell one carriage type from another even when it's pretty straightforward, it does rather cast doubt on the credibility of the work. That said, Vol 1 was in my view much better than no book at all and included many very good photos. I have already republished the review I wrote of Volume 1 elsewhere on this forum. I shall certainly buy Vol 2 and, even if there are some errors, I have no doubt it will be worth having. The pigeon vans entertainment on this forum (or rather its predecessor) was a long time ago. I don't think either author participates in any forums of note nowadays. One used to be on the LNER-info site but appears to have left. (Edited to add links.) Edited September 1, 2018 by robertcwp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 1, 2018 Share Posted September 1, 2018 Should also add: I have co-authored a few books (not on railways) and have written articles. I'm sure there will be errors somewhere - I know there are a few in various articles - and I doubt there is ever such a thing as a completely error-free book or journal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Was that critique ever published? I helped compile a list of caption errors, of which there are a disappointingly large number, which was intended for a Society journal but, for various reasons, it was not published. I can't publish the list myself as my work is mixed in with that of two others. When the authors state words to the effect that analysis of photographs was key and yet cannot tell one carriage type from another even when it's pretty straightforward, it does rather cast doubt on the credibility of the work. That said, Vol 1 was in my view much better than no book at all and included many very good photos. I have already republished the review I wrote of Volume 1 elsewhere on this forum. I shall certainly buy Vol 2 and, even if there are some errors, I have no doubt it will be worth having. The pigeon vans entertainment on this forum (or rather its predecessor) was a long time ago. I don't think either author participates in any forums of note nowadays. One used to be on the LNER-info site but appears to have left. (Edited to add links.) Can I confirm the review was in the Oct 2016 BRM ? . I was lucky , I got my copy via eBay at a much reduced price. The person you referred to left the LNER Forum a while ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 (edited) Can I confirm the review was in the Oct 2016 BRM ? . I was lucky , I got my copy via eBay at a much reduced price. The person you referred to left the LNER Forum a while ago. I had forgotten that I had an article in that edition of BRM. It was meant to mark 50 years since closure of the GC London Extension as a through route. My review of Vol 1 of the book was published in the LNER Society's newsletter. Edited September 2, 2018 by robertcwp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 The person you referred to left the LNER Forum a while ago. Voluntarily? I don't think he is a member of any society either. So far as I know, he's not in the LNER Society or the Gresley Society. Haven't seen evidence of his presence in any other line society either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 Robert's link to the previous Pigeon Van thread reminded me that SB did appear to resign as threatened but then, or on a similar occasion, immediately rejoined under a different name and proceeded to argue that his earlier ego was right. This alter ego (or simply ego?) was soon spotted to much amusement. As to membership of line societies and so on, under GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation) membership lists are no longer published. I do recall that he created such a disturbance in the force that the LNER Study Group/Society committee at the time banished him to his alternate reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 2, 2018 Share Posted September 2, 2018 As to membership of line societies and so on, under GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation) membership lists are no longer published. They can be published if members consent, but you can only do so with consent and have to leave out those who do not give consent (you can't take silence as yes). I was not a member of the Gresley Society at the time Vol 1 was published. The reviews and any follow-up correspondence would be interesting to see. After joining, I asked a question in Gresley Observer about whether anyone could corroborate the assertion in Vol 1 that the ex-Coronation twin used on the 'Master Cutler' had its seating altered to 2+1, as I have found no other evidence of that. I didn't receive any replies. The author's name is mentioned even less often than "Thompson" in such circles, it seems. BTW - Gresley Observer is excellent - I write that only as a satisfied member of the Society. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 Looking forward to it (hopefully the previous one is reissued too at some point). I wonder whether my pre order is still valid. Probably not. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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