Isle of Wight Railway Coaches

[Ydna]

Hi there,

 

Hoping this is the correct place to be posting this query...

 

I'm wondering whether or not anyone would have any information on the subject of the availability of 4mm scale passenger coaches that ran on the Isle of Wight railway network anytime between the 30s and 60s, preferably. I'm beginning to build a small layout of a station set there and am not sure if I'll be able to get hold of some stock to run on it or if I'll have to scratch-build / modify existing available models. The more prototypical correct, the better I suppose.

 

Thanks in advance for any help,

 

Andy.

[jonhall]

Roxey do a range, but I can't list them off the top of my head, try googling 'isle of wight site:www.roxeymouldings.co.uk'

 

which should bring them up.

 

Jon

[Bruciethefish]

Roxey do a quite extensive range of coach kits suitable for IoW use, including LBSC Stroudley 4-wheelers, Metropolitan 8-wheelers, plus LBSC & SECR bogie stock. All kits prototypically accurate for the island are labelled with 'IOW' within an island outline.

[Nick Holliday]

The story of the coaching stock on the Island is extremely complex, and I would advise getting hold of a copy of Maycock and Reed's Oakwood Press book on the subject as it provides a detailed explanation of the various changes that took place.

As far a models are concerned, apart from the appropriate Roxey ones, there are other potential sources.  The only ones that I know that are specifically based on IoW examples are the Smallbrook Studios' Stroudley Four Wheelers, (and their K's white metal predecessors), the Worsley Works LBSC Saloon (sides and ends only) and the range produced by Alan GIbson, which were supposed to be based upon the preserved LBSC bogie stock.  The last range were pretty rare at the time of introduction, and although they are listed in the current David Geen catalogue they are noted as not in production, and I cannot recall seeing any of them on eBay either. 

Apart from the company stock Chris has listed, the Southern also brought over some LSWR items, which might be found in the Roxey, Blacksmith or Southwark Bridge ranges, and LDCR four wheel and bogie stock.  Of these, D&S produced some 4 wheelers, and Branchlines some bogie stock, but I have no idea whether any are appropriate, and the D&S items are only to be found second-hand. The pre-grouping lines also bought some NLR 4 wheelers, but they, like the Metropolitan coaches, didn't make it to the thirties, but London Road Models might have something in their range.  Sadly I don't think any of the Roxey SECR coaches are usable, and I cannot recall whether Branchlines have anything suitable either, from either the SECR or the LBSCR. One oddity that might turn up secondhand is the LBSC Inspectors' Coach that was produced by Smokeyloco some time ago; this was converted to a first class saloon, and the centre wheels removed, as was done to many of the other 6 wheelers, both LSWR and LCDR that were sent over the Solent.

One problem is that many of the coaches sent over were adapted and altered, sometime out of all recognition, and the work required to convert an original kit might be considerable - for example some lost all their raised panelling and had it replaced with steel sheeting, resulting in a vomparatively modern looking vehicle.

[bike2steam]

Or if you want to go for a cheaper/ easier option, try the Ratio Midland suburban coaches ( 710 - 713 ) that are not too dissimilar to the Brighton bogies. I used them on 'Bembridge', and after 10 years, and 70 shows, on the exhibition circuit, not many twigged the deception .

Edited May 7, 2013 by bike2steam

[bike2steam]

For your reference, Ratio Midland coaches on platform road,I know - no lining, but it represents the old faded/weathered stock used on the Bembridge branch.

[ChrisG]

Now that Kernow Models’ O2s have unlocked for many people the possibility of building an Isle of Wight-based OO layout, I thought it would be timely to consider the various sources of models of Island coaches. I will be talking only about the BR period, which is what  I model, for which one needs  ex-LBSCR and ex-SECR coaches.

 

Suitable brass kits are available from Roxey Mouldings, Worsley Works and (on extended order period) Mousa Models (Bill Bedford). Leaving these asie, except to say that if you have or are keen to acquire the skill to build a brass kit, these are very satisfactory models and I have built a number of them myself (usual disclaimer applies).

 

The cupboard is pretty bare as far as the SECR coaches are involved. The best donors are the old Graham Farish suburban coaches, which can be turned into reasonable replicas of sheeted Island coaches, with the biggest issue being changing the roof profile from arc to semi-elliptical. My own attempts at this are still work in progress, so I will pass by these as well (for now at least).

 

The Brighton carriages are easier as Ratio Midland suburban coach kits are a very suitable basis. As we know from earlier in the thread, Paul Mays even claims to have fooled people with these by building them as per the instructions, save for painting them in Southern olive green.   I prefer to take the conversion a bit further by lengthening them, dealing with the bow-ended body profile, fashioning new underframes, and fitting the SR bogies which carried them during their lifetime on the Island.

 

Please note that I am not attempting to create highly detailed scale replicas, but coaches that at normal viewing distance look like the real thing (the “Tony Wright” school of layout modelling, no less).

 

First up is a Ratio 3^rd class compartment coach, which has been built largely as per the instructions and painted green, fitted with SR bogies, and with various components of the underframe  removed. Like Paul’s, these seem to fool most people, and their shortness (48’ vs 54’) does not seem to matter at all.

 

 

 

Second is an LBSCR 6 compartment brake under construction which has involved the following alterations:-

 

 

Cutting and shutting of two bodies to make a 54’ (21cm) length body;

Reversal of the ends, filing them flat and adding panelling and steps from strip- styrene;

Cutting of windows at the guard’s end of the coach;

Lengthening of the roof and removal of original rainstrips to be replaced by plasticard strip;

Lengthening of the chassis (cut and shut again);

Underframe trussing fettled from brass wire and split pins; SR battery boxes from Comet Models (now Wizard Models);

Bogies are Bachmann 8’ SR steam bogies which are lovely smooth runners.

 

 

Another approach involves using the OLD Tri-ang clerestory coaches. This was advocated by Terry Gough in the Model Railway Constructor in the 1960s and more recently (within the last year or two) in the Railway Modeller. I have never attempted a conversion based on these models, however.  And I am currently expecting that the more effort I put into building these conversions, the more likely it is that one of the R-T-R manufacturers will announce some Island coaches in their range!

 

Chris Gardner

Alton

Hants

 

 

[ChrisG]

Stop Press - I have been corresponding with Allen Doherty of Worsley Works who is interested in preparing etches for the SECR coaches. I am pursuing this avenue with a view to ordering a few. It depends on the success of recreating the rivetting effect on the sheeted sections.  He is a 3mm scale specialist but does supply his etches in other scales.

 

I am most of the way through building his Brighton Saloon coach, and have found it goes together very well and makes a lovely model.

 

No connection other than as a satisfied customer.

 

Chris

Edited March 7, 2016 by ChrisG

[phil_sutters]

The plating over seems to have been a bit patchy in its application as Dad's photos taken in the 1960s show - http://www.ipernity.com/tag/philsutters/keyword/4333888 (Please note that some Firewalls don't like the ipernity website - a friend has a Norton firewall which goes mad if an ipernity link is clicked!)

Using Triang clerestories would have the same problem which I bottled out of in creating S&D stock, back in the '60s - the GWR 'G' shaped grab handles. You can now get the elongated 'S' shaped ones now, but it's another cost and task to factor in.

[zephyrman]

Hi,

 

I have built just about every wagon or coach used on the Island, sometimes in several liveries. Unfortunately as is the case, the Isle of Wight is allways different and the coaching stock is no exception.

 

For LBSCR coaches use Roxey but tge brakes need kit bashing. Its not easy but I will go into that later.

 

Ratio and Graham Farish coaches are far to wide for the Island loading guage.

 

SECR coaches are so different from mainland builds so Roxey kits need kitbashing..

I ďid send artwork to Roxey for the Saloons but he does not seem interested. However...

 

The saloons with the open saloon in the middle or end and were the most common by 66 are a nigtmare in their own.

 

So how did I build these???

 

Get a graham farish saloon. Sand the sides smooth.

 

Get a circular saw with a 3mm blade and slit the coach in half making it the right width.

 

Bond both sides together.

 

Brake off the side down to the thicker part. Should snap off with pliers.

Form or make up an inner cantrail to give you a top edge to bond to.

Now you have a base to which youcan cut and shut and bond Roxey sides to.

Although Bachmann are bringing out birdcage stock. They are the same as the Roxey kits but may save time on Underframe work.

 

Its hard work but the only way you get anything that looks right.

[zephyrman]

[zephyrman]

[zephyrman]

This is the 4th one I have built using a different frett!! I have since revisited this one and rebuilt it as it needed a section leting in to make it look right. Will post pics of it shortly. With a bit of plasticard and some car body stopper to hide the scars, they come up real good. But its not for the faint hearted. Be carefull with the chopsaw too. Don't try this at home!!!

[zephyrman]

This the end open comp

[zephyrman]

 

And the middle open composite.

[zephyrman]

I have even built the Sadler Vectarail Rail coach. And modern stock for BR days such as the Britannia Rail Lift.

[zephyrman]

 

I have since fitted with lights. Took a while to decide how to model it as there were so many modifications made to it at Droxford. Different roof pods and side trim etc.

[zephyrman]

If you want to know about what wagons to use or what kit to use just post on here. I have built all the type of wagons with exception to the metal LBSCR ballast wagons and the boiler wagon. But its on my list next!

[ChrisG]

If you want to know about what wagons to use or what kit to use just post on here. I have built all the type of wagons with exception to the metal LBSCR ballast wagons and the boiler wagon. But its on my list next!

Would be interested to see the tanks on the weed-killing train, and a description of how you built them.

 

 

Chris

[zephyrman]

There was a kit for the brake van used in the earlier weed killing train. It was an ex MR van the IWR used if your doing SR.

 

The IWR water tanks were very unusuall in profile!!! And had several chassis over the years.

 

For the odd shaped one, please do not laugh but due to the wierd profile, the only think close was a sweetex sweetner dispenser which I cut into sections!!!!! It is slighty tapered too so I had to sort that. But by cutting ito into quarters for the top, then the bottom tapered bit was sectioned into quarters again. The chassis I used an IWR chassis from Smallbrook Studios I think. For the private owner Royal daylight wagons on the Island I modified a mainland tank wagon. I think the tank wagons and Isle of Wight cranes have taken the longest and are the hardest to build. The next hardest are the SECR composites!!!

[ChrisG]

There was a kit for the brake van used in the earlier weed killing train. It was an ex MR van the IWR used if your doing SR.

 

The IWR water tanks were very unusuall in profile!!! And had several chassis over the years.

 

For the odd shaped one, please do not laugh but due to the wierd profile, the only think close was a sweetex sweetner dispenser which I cut into sections!!!!! It is slighty tapered too so I had to sort that. But by cutting ito into quarters for the top, then the bottom tapered bit was sectioned into quarters again. The chassis I used an IWR chassis from Smallbrook Studios I think. For the private owner Royal daylight wagons on the Island I modified a mainland tank wagon. I think the tank wagons and Isle of Wight cranes have taken the longest and are the hardest to build. The next hardest are the SECR composites!!!

 

 

I shall have a look at Sweetex next time in the supermarket! Meanwhile, can you explain the advantage of using the GF coaches as a basis for SECR ones rather than just using the the Roxey bits - is it that it makes easier if you have a foundation on which to stick the chopped up bits?

 

I must say the out of gauge width has never bothered me. The couple of SECR based coaches I have modelled are based on the Grafar suburbans with compartments chopped out to make them shorter. I struggle to get the correct roof shape however. My best approach has been using aluminium BR Mk1 roofs pressed a bit flat!

 

Chris

[zephyrman]

You are correct the use of Graham Farish Suburbans is that it gives tge right shape for the tumblehome and a good sruface to bond the bottom of the etch sides to and gives a nice straight edge. The roxey kits are for the 60ft coach not the 54ft and require so much cutting about you could not build the kit afterwards, hence the need for a former to build on. There is a big difference with the width issue. I used to just use the graham farish coaches at first. Then I boughtva Roxey LBSCR 3rd and you can see the width difference when in a train with Farish coaches. The look is similar to a tadpole unit. Hence why I started to chop mine. When I found out the only way to build a decent SECR comp was going to need to be kitbashed then its only logical to do the same.

[zephyrman]

Post script. I have just asked Allen at Worsley Works to make up etches for SECR comps. I sent him some artwork and he has agreed to make some, some part panelled some unpanelled! At least you will not have to cutvand shut so much. He has said a full body kit ,sides and ends and roof will be £45 and available in about 3 weeks?

[ChrisG]

You are correct the use of Graham Farish Suburbans is that it gives tge right shape for the tumblehome and a good sruface to bond the bottom of the etch sides to and gives a nice straight edge. The roxey kits are for the 60ft coach not the 54ft and require so much cutting about you could not build the kit afterwards, hence the need for a former to build on. There is a big difference with the width issue. I used to just use the graham farish coaches at first. Then I boughtva Roxey LBSCR 3rd and you can see the width difference when in a train with Farish coaches. The look is similar to a tadpole unit. Hence why I started to chop mine. When I found out the only way to build a decent SECR comp was going to need to be kitbashed then its only logical to do the same.

 

 

I keep my Roxey kits separate from the Ratio/Grafar based ones for that very reason!    Although of course the difference in profile between LBSCR and SECR coaches is one of the distinctive features of IOW trains in BR days.

[ChrisG]

Post script. I have just asked Allen at Worsley Works to make up etches for SECR comps. I sent him some artwork and he has agreed to make some, some part panelled some unpanelled! At least you will not have to cutvand shut so much. He has said a full body kit ,sides and ends and roof will be £45 and available in about 3 weeks?

 

It is possible he has been working on them for some time as I sent him some drawings a few months ago. These were the ones in the Maycock and Reed book on IOW carriages, and the kits will  therefore copy the panelled/non-panelled pattern from those drawings. When I last corresponded with Allen he said he needed to experiment with replicating the rivetting on the panelled sections.   I hope you specified 4mm scale, as he usually works in 3mm scale!

 

Chris