RMweb Gold farren Posted April 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2013 (edited) a few weeks back i won a pro-scale princess on eBay and have been thinking of what to do with it, and what would be needed as its a princess I thought I would try my best and try and buy the best for it and make some thing I could by prod of. After getting the loco and having a good look at all the parts the fist thing i notice was the lost wax brass valve gear which I don't like at all which got me thinking what makes a good model. running quality is a must. ozzyo had just put up photos of some bearings for one of his O gauge projects so I had a look on the net and have found some roller bearing 1/8 th internal bore ordered them very nice bit of engineering when you see them in the flash. the next part of good running i thought was the wheels which is it starts to go awry had a look at alan Gibson and soon found out they don't do a set for the princess so looked at Markits full set at about £73 with P+P. have some spare markits axles i know I'll just try the bearings out see how good they are Good idea i sade to my self. shame the don't fit OD of the axles is 4.18 mm oh dear i said tried the spare EM axles from Alan Gibson perfect pit 4.16 mm. so know I am unsure to spend £73 on wheels that may not fit. always pro scale but with a £100 price tag and up to a 5 month wait not to sure about that. any ideas welcome on any part of the build especially the wheels i would like to thank Horsetan for a copy of the instructions I am also unsure about a motor for such a model after only doing tank engines before but also with the wheels being up in the air so to speak that might have to whit till later. some pics Edited November 1, 2023 by farren Have Renamed topic and will use just this one from now on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Ultrascale produce the correct "Princess" driving wheels. £18.54 per axle though, and a good 6-month wait. Has anyone actually ordered from Ultrascale, and then passed away whilst waiting? I had terrible thoughts about that possibility! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Maybe Comet and Brassmasters maybe able to supply some tweaky additional parts? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 25, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2013 Ultrascale produce the correct "Princess" driving wheels. £18.54 per axle though, and a good 6-month wait. Has anyone actually ordered from Ultrascale, and then passed away whilst waiting? I had terrible thoughts about that possibility! i am tempted with the ultra scale they do look nice, as they are made to order i was wondering if i could put a top limit tolerance of the diameter of the axles to make sure they fit the roller bearings but still the rest of the model would have to be good to justify the cost 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 25, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 25, 2013 Maybe Comet and Brassmasters maybe able to supply some tweaky additional parts? Ian i have to admit i have not opened any of the bags with the white metal castings in yet, but i can see brassmasters, comet and alan taking orders for this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 What don't you like about cast brass valvegear? And which bits are cast? Surely not any of the rods/cranks? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 26, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 26, 2013 hi jeffp the cross head, and slide bars i mean they took a lot off filein bending on the last ones and never looked as good as the machined markits ones the rods I had a look at yesterday, and they did not look to bad. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Not sure if DMR still produce a "Princess" chimney and dome. Might be worth asking. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 26, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 26, 2013 (edited) well after emailing SMB bearings manage to find out the The SFR144 EZO bore tolerance is +0 / -0.007mm or +0 / -0.0003 inches. now i have to find out the axle tolerance I'll let you know about Dmr i did find an E-mail address but that's not working so i give them a bell in the week. Edited August 23, 2013 by farren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 The frustrating thing about DMR is that they never publicise their range of detail castings and turnings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 Hello Farren, sounds like you may have some axles to fit Triang frames, although your sizes would be a bit big. I've just had a look on the Markits web site, a full set of wheels for the Princess £69.26 plus P&P.. They still do 1/8" axles for the driving wheels. In the catalogue it looks like there are two types but when you look at the cat. numbers the second one is for EM. The other option for you is to use 3mm axles and get a new set of bearings (you could ask to exchange the ones that you have now). Looking at the photos (can you increase the size of them?) It looks like you may have a problem in that the hole for the roller bearings 'may' brake through the bottom of the etched frames. Some people did not like the Pro Scale kits (I did). With some work they do look the part and build into a nice model, and a lot better job than some that went before them. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 27, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 27, 2013 hi ozzyo the bearings are 0.1250 inch/ 1/8 inch which works out to be 3.1750mm ID with a +0 -0.007mm. I just looked at my 1st post should read 3.16 and 3.18mm on axles sorry. the bearing do have a flange which makes them look bigger. as for the photos i don't know why they come up small but if you click on them they do expands to normal size Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 27, 2013 Share Posted April 27, 2013 ....I'll let you know about Dmr i did find an Emile address but that not working ..... No surprise there, then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted April 27, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 27, 2013 suggest you PM Mike Edge as he has a lot of info on Princesses.... and also etches to help make it work - Horsetan have you built yours yet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 .... Horsetan have you built yours yet? I've managed to get hold of most of the wheels.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 hi ozzyo the bearings are 0.1250 inch/ 1/8 inch which works out to be 3.1750mm ID with a +0 -0.007mm. I just looked at my 1st post should read 3.16 and 3.18mm on axles sorry. Hello Farren, you should be able to use them axles with the bearings. The 3.16 (0.1244") should fit in the bearing as it is, the 3.18 (0.1252"), this is a different story. You should still be able to use this, first do all of the prep work, leave the nuts off and drop into a zip lock bag then place in the freezer for about 8 hours (longer if poss) liquid Nitrogen would be better. This should contract the axle enough to fit into the bearing. You should get about 5 minutes working time depending on how warm the room is. If you do use the freezer idea, have the bearings fixed in the frames along with any washers that your going to use to hand. Fit the axle through the bearing, then the washers and wheel on one side. Doing this do one axle at a time leaving the others in the freezer. Thinking about it, you could fit one wheel to each axle before putting them in the freezer. It would also give you a bit more to hold on to. If you do use this idea the bearings and axles will be like one and you may not get them apart again. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 28, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2013 suggest you PM Mike Edge as he has a lot of info on Princesses.... and also etches to help make it work - Horsetan have you built yours yet? I have seen horsetan posts using mikes etches and am thinking of using mikes etches for 46205 and am whiting for mike to produce some more. but for this one I would be happy with the kit and replace the white metal casting etc where needed or available. it should still look better than the Hornby one finger crossed. i will give mike a PM thanks for the suggestion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 28, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2013 (edited) Hello Farren, you should be able to use them axles with the bearings. The 3.16 (0.1244") should fit in the bearing as it is, the 3.18 (0.1252"), this is a different story. You should still be able to use this, first do all of the prep work, leave the nuts off and drop into a zip lock bag then place in the freezer for about 8 hours (longer if poss) liquid Nitrogen would be better. This should contract the axle enough to fit into the bearing. You should get about 5 minutes working time depending on how warm the room is. If you do use the freezer idea, have the bearings fixed in the frames along with any washers that your going to use to hand. Fit the axle through the bearing, then the washers and wheel on one side. Doing this do one axle at a time leaving the others in the freezer. Thinking about it, you could fit one wheel to each axle before putting them in the freezer. It would also give you a bit more to hold on to. If you do use this idea the bearings and axles will be like one and you may not get them apart again. OzzyO. I must admit I had not thought of that Ozzyo it's a bit of a one way ticket. and would make it almost impossible to do any repairs in the future with out some thing coming to a dismal end. it might be ok on the free axles but the driven one it may come to that yet, I have sent Markits an email to find out about their tolerances on the axles to see if the could send any on the smaller side. Edited April 28, 2013 by farren Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted April 28, 2013 Share Posted April 28, 2013 Hello Farren, one thing that you must remember about using any roller bearings is that for the bearings to work at there best is that the inner and outer bearings (cages), have to be fixed to the frame or the axle. If one or the other can move you will not get the benefit of the bearing. What repairs will you have to do to the bearings? then if the gearbox is set up right not much. I've built some locos that have been running for about ten years and not had to drop any of the frame parts. These locos are running on a large layout with no problems, so why think that you have to drop all the parts in a year? Think about how these bearings work in your car! OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 28, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 28, 2013 I was thinking of a drop. Of glue for the inner racer to axle and ether a low melt solder to hold the main bearing body to the frames. But know you've asked why as got me thinking the frames should turn out perfectly square as it's a scew together job then solder after world's. Maybe your right. One thing it would have no side play which could make curves a problem wouldn't it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 30, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2013 markits got back not the most helpful i'ed say, their axles are 3.15mm which is 1240 decamal inch if may maths are right. which would fit but leve 0.01mm +- what ever markits work to (not saying hence not being helpful) i think i'll buy some spares and hopfully use any tight fitting ones. there is always Ultrascale But six months i could have forgotten what i wanted them for by then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 ..... there is always Ultrascale But six months i could have forgotten what i wanted them for by then. To be fair, you wouldn't be the only one.....! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 markits got back not the most helpful i'ed say, their axles are 3.15mm which is 1240 decamal inch if may maths are right. which would fit but leve 0.01mm +- what ever markits work to (not saying hence not being helpful) i think i'll buy some spares and hopfully use any tight fitting ones. there is always Ultrascale But six months i could have forgotten what i wanted them for by then. Hello Farren, if you try and fit a 0.125" shaft into a 0.125" hole it should fit, but it won't, as both sizes are the same. if the shaft size was 0.1245" it will fit. The difference in size is the thickness of the glue on a fag paper (not including the paper, that is about 0.0015" or 0. 038mm), If the shaft goes round in the bearing you are not getting the best out of a roller bearing. Loctite is your friend not super glue. To get the best out of roller bearings, the outer race has to be fixed to the frames and the inner race to the axle. This is why you can get bearings for cars with over and under sizes, so that you can then get the bearing to fit the shaft or hole. I've had a look at the driving wheelbase of the Princess and it's 15' 3" so just a tad over the tender wheelbase, it's not going to be the fixed wheelbase that will cause the problems but the bogie and the pony wheels on any curves. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 Would it not be possible to use a taper broach to just ease the bearing a little? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold farren Posted April 30, 2013 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted April 30, 2013 Well I think the best thing to do for now is to just order the full set markits wheels which will be done next week and see where I go from there. To be continued..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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