Cadbury Bournville

[peter220950]

Hi,

 

Time to stick my head up above the parapet.

 

Being a ‘newbie’ to RM web I have been watching, (and enjoying) the various threads on 7mm layout and stock construction and feel it’s worth sharing my trials and tribulations with others, so they can see how not to do it!

 

It also appears to be a useful prod to getting things done, there’s no better pressure than that from fellow modellers wanting to know what’s happening, and there’s also inspiration and encouragement from comments received.

 

I have already started on my project, having built the basic boards, but commence the description from the beginning, the planning process, in order to explain why the layout is the peculiar shape it is, and why the boards are a little different.

 

The intention of the build was also to question the status quo, we often see in the layout builds ‘the frames were built of 3” x 1” timber with 6mm ply tops’, ‘ballasting was using PVA glue with washing up liquid’ and ‘the track was laid on a cork base'.

 

I’m not suggesting for one minute that there is anything wrong with these methods, it’s probably natural evolution that has given us the results we see so often, and which may be the correct answer to our problems, I just thought it was worth questioning the way we do things to make sure we are moving with the times and with modern materials.

 

I don’t think I can post more than half a dozen photo’s at a time, so I’m going to spread it across three posts.

 

The Layout

 

I have been studying the Industrial Railway within the Cadbury works at Bournville for around 25 years, gathering large amounts of information. I felt that the 15 or so loco’s that operated in the works were an achievable long term build to target, and that with tight curves the usual compromises of compression would be less obvious.

But which part of the system to model? –

 

The shed?

 

 

The unloading dock?

 

 

No, for me, for character and atmosphere it had to be Waterside, the area where goods were unloaded from the canal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only remaining evidence of the railway is the bridge over the main line and the canal, which I measured and recorded back in the 80’s.

 

 

 

 

The circle to square was to be that to model Waterside would mean modelling the Worcester to Birmingham Canal, the other side of the canal is the old Midland Main line to Birmingham, and I really wanted to model the bridge over both, having spent so long measuring it.

 

This pointed to a long linear layout, the first designs involved running from fiddle yard to fiddle yard. However I wanted an exhibition layout and to be able to keep lots of things moving, ultimately allowing for the possibility of a degree of computer control, so curves were put into the ends, in areas to be hidden from general view.

 

This, then, is the outline design I am working towards, with the caveat that if things don’t fit as they should it may be revised a bit.

 

[peter220950]

Baseboards – Design Philosophy

 

As a follower of F1 I adopt most of the philosophy of the late Colin Chapman of Lotus cars “Simplify, then add lightness” - I say most because he always felt that a car was perfect if it fell to pieces as it crossed the finishing line, being designed to do just enough to win. Unfortunately it often went wrong, with the cars falling to bits as they were racing, with disastrous consequences.

 

I want the layout to be substantial enough to withstand the rigours of exhibition handling and transport, yet remain light. I’m not getting any younger, and often see comments about layout boards being 8’ x 3’ and need in 4 people to carry them, this is not how I want it.

 

One problem I have noticed, however, with lightweight layouts is that anyone walking past within two or three feet of the layout will cause it to rock – I don’t want that either, so there is a need for some mass for stability somewhere in the equation.

 

The stupidity of my layout design means that with a datum of the canal at zero the railway goes under it at one end and over at the other, I have to deal with at least 250mm of variance in layout height, it is therefore imperative to minimise the board construction depth. A bit of tweaking of the main line, putting a gradient in it, will mean I can squeeze the height issues a bit but I want to keep a level base line to simplify the support structure and allow its use in the home as well. Similarly I’m not putting legs into the units, the boards aren’t really long or deep enough, and it adds weight to the boards, again unwanted when using the layout at home. (I have another cunning plan for a support system).

 

So down to basics -  if side and end pieces are made into a rectangle the board will twist when forces are applied to opposite corners, most board designs avoid this by beefing up the depth of the sides and adding diagonal strengtheners. A back-scene can also help with this rigidity. However I can’t add back-scenes to much of the layout, and would cut off the fiddle yard access at the back.

 

 I can’t have deep beams without ending up with 400mm deep boards in places, again something to avoid if possible.

 

My answer, which I think suits the requirements, is to copy the humble wellington,

 

 

No not that one, the Wellington bomber,

 

 

judging by the photo there’s a considerable strength in the structure, I am have copied this principle in 4mm ply. Early experiments indicated that I could get better rigidity than a conventional board in a depth of only 50mm.  The sizes of the diamond grid of timbers were used to calculate the actual board sizes, the end four boards being half a grid more than the intermediate boards, giving me room for the canal structure, round which the whole layout hangs.

 

The boards have been made up using 50mm strips of 4mm ply, with halved joints at 160mm centres. This, when laid out as a diamond pattern, gives a modular width and length in 235mm increments. The intermediate boards, with end and side pieces are 470mm x 1200mm, and the curved ends, which are half a module wider, are 600mm x 1500mm. The whole goes together to form a large oval shape, with a slot in the middle for the canal/support structure.

 

 

There is, however, a bit of waste!

 

 

[peter220950]

It’s an ambitious layout, at 22’ x 4’, with potentially a main line looping onto the back, (or two fiddle yards).  Perhaps it’s too ambitious, but I don’t underestimate the work involved, having worked on a 40’ x 16’ club layout for several years, which still takes a bite out of my own modelling time.

 

One of the biggest problems is going to be making everything, I’m not using commercial track, apart from a couple of hidden areas, I’m making all the points, and suitable loco’s will have to be scratch or kit built. In this respect I am very fortunate that Mike Williams of Agenoria is now making or about to make, kits for about ten of the loco’s, though I have already completed the Peckett from a Mercian kit. All I would ask is that you judge the results from that perspective, I intend to get it working, then refine and re-visit where compromises have been made.

 

The main question I hear you all asking is “Is it all wishful thinking and Bulls**t?”, well I hope not, I have come to RM Web late in the day, and therefore have compressed a couple of years planning and work into the story so far.

 

Just to illustrate  that I do have something to show for the efforts so far here are a few photo’s of some of the progress to date:-

 

The layout boards

 

 

The bridge wing walls and piers, awaiting placement on the layout before constructing the bridge.

 

 

 

 

Peckett No 10 awaiting painting.

 

 

Manning Wardle No 7 under construction.

 

 

 

A couple of the BR loco’s which worked in the factory during loco shortages.

 

 

Some barges for the canal

 

And last but not least the foreman’s car

 

 

 

So now it’s on with the build………………….

 

 

[shortliner]

Those geodesic baseboards are a work of art! - You are obviously MUCH better at woodwork than I  !!

[Debs.]

Well done with your excellent progress so-far........a very engaging subject and project; certainly one to watch!

[trisonic]

Those geodesic baseboards are a work of art! - You are obviously MUCH better at woodwork than I  !!

Lovely, must be a pain,though,  wiring the layout up, no?

 

Best, Pete.

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

What an outstanding idea for a 7mm layout - the continuous running aspect will have a few spitting feathers, I'm sure.

 

You've obviously put a lot of thought into it already, so I'm certain this will be a compulsive watch over the upcoming months/years.

[peter220950]

Those geodesic baseboards are a work of art! - You are obviously MUCH better at woodwork than I  !!

 

Shortliner,

 

Thanks for that, that's what I mean by encouragement!

 

I cannot take all the credit for the boards, the timber strips and halved joints were cut for me by a Joinery shop so that helped to some extent, although they got one section 4mm too long, hence the high wastage rate. Once cut they literally slot together, only needing a chop saw set at 45 degrees to get the ends right. I then made up a box jig the size of the boards and squeezed the bits in. One problem I found was that you can't glue the crossed sections as there's no room for the glue to squeeze out, and you can't compress a liquid, however they seem to be o.k. with just glueing at the ends, using quadrant moulds etc.

 

Regards

 

peterL

[peter220950]

Lovely, must be a pain,though,  wiring the layout up, no?

 

Best, Pete.

 

Pete,

 

Not really we all know that DCC only needs two wires!!!!!

 

In reality there's little of the layout down at the level of the top of these units, so most of the wiring can either be on the surface or in the voids between track and board tops, so I'm not expecting too much problem. It did, however, rule out using Tortoise motors in many cases, so I'm dipping my toe into the water with Servo's as the layout progresses.

 

Regards

 

peterL

[peter220950]

What an outstanding idea for a 7mm layout - the continuous running aspect will have a few spitting feathers, I'm sure.

 

You've obviously put a lot of thought into it already, so I'm certain this will be a compulsive watch over the upcoming months/years.

 

Perhaps I phrased it slightly incorrectly, what I really meant was the ability to run from the fiddle yard and back to the fiddle yard without having to walk from one end of the layout to the other.

 

My observations are that at an exhibition the minute anything stops everyone walks away, and we are supposed to be providing entertainment, so if the Blue Pullman (that's in the roof but not built) runs down the main line one way, a freight runs the other, and a Cadbury loco climbs up, over the brodge and then disappears behind the warehouses, while I'm shunting on Waterside, I will have achieved what I set out to do. Two or three loco's each way on the main line on a shuttle, (??JMRI one day?) and a copule of Cadbury loco's pooting around will keep the interest going.

 

Regards

 

peterL

(p.s. it was you, Father Dougal and Ruston who inspired me to dip my toe into the water so it's all your fault!)

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

(p.s. it was you, Father Dougal and Ruston who inspired me to dip my toe into the water so it's all your fault!)

I don't think you'll regret it Peter, I wouldn't have got half as far as I have (not that that's very far in itself) without the help and encouragement of folk hereabouts.

 

Just spent a half hour or so reading about Bourneville - I did go there once about 20 years ago - I'm not sure now, as I wasn't then, whether I find the story inspirational or faintly chilling, but I think it's a fantastic subject for a layout. It's got everything - mainline trains, industrial loco's, alternative forms of transport (canals) all wrapped up in an individual corporate identity and livery which everyone is familiar with - and on top of all that, it goes round bends !

 

Now you have to live up to the idea - no pressure 

 

Chris.

[TheSignalEngineer]

As someone born where the weather was forecast by if you could smell Cadburys or not I look forward to seeing progress on the layout.

 

I remember the boats working into Waterside, must have finished in the early 1960s. I also have pictures somewhere that I took of the crossbar signal in the exchange sidings back in 1976 that may be of interest to you.

[peter220950]

As someone born where the weather was forecast by if you could smell Cadburys or not I look forward to seeing progress on the layout.

 

I remember the boats working into Waterside, must have finished in the early 1960s. I also have pictures somewhere that I took of the crossbar signal in the exchange sidings back in 1976 that may be of interest to you.

Hi,

 

All photo's are of interest, you never know what nuggets they might show that you didn't know. 

 

I assume you mean this signal?

 

As far as I recall it went to Chasewater Railway on closure of the sysem in the 60's.

 

I know what you mean about the smell, you're talking to a Northfield boy!

 

Regards

 

peterL

[peter220950]

Board Ends
 

In case you thought last weekend was just spent on posting the blog, here’s a quick update.

 

I wanted to avoid, as far as possible, the problems of highly visible board joints, these are mainly due to having to put scenery on the baseboards long after they have been constructed, meaning that there is a surface layer of scenery which is not built to be butted together. More often than not it's cut into the finished scenery long after it’s been completed as a single application, leaving it vulnerable to chipping and damage, I am hoping to minimise this risk by making all of the board ends in 12mm MDF and cutting the ends to ground contours at the scenery stage, leaving two ends of MDF to mate together at the correct profile, and without a lot of scenery other than ground cover on the top, not sure how successful it will be but here goes anyway.

 

Another problem I have had on previous layouts is getting the joiners to line through the board joints properly, and with using bolts which file the board end holes into oval shapes over time. I am unable to use side mounted hinge pins or over centre catches because of the unusual design, having longitudinal joints down the layout.

 

A standard end piece pattern has been cut and a jig made of MDF to drill the board joining holes. Because the boards are supported in the main along one edge I am only going to use one board joint dowel per joint, and two bolts. I have been out and purchased new matching 6mm bolts, washers, and wing nuts to avoid the usual box of assorted nuts and bolts of differing sizes that we use on layouts, and which take more time to sort into matching pairs than setting up the layout. 

 

For dowels I find it hard to beat pattern makers dowels and have purchased them from John Burn in Birmingham, where I get my resins for casting. I have also shelled out on a proper suitable sized cutter to house them into the ends, no more bodging them into hacked out recesses.

 

The jig is used to mark out and drill three small pilot holes in each clamped together pair of mating ends, which are much higner than the layout will be, the advantage of doing this on the bench is that you can get them done in a drilling machine and hence be vertical. The centre holes are then opened out to 25mm diameter to a depth of around 5mm and the dowels are screwed in.

 

 

 

The ends are then glued to the baseboard ends and the bolt holes were then opened out to just under 8mm. – Why this big for a 6mm bolt?

 

 

 

The answer is microbore pipe inserts for central heating, after a lot of time spent trawling through my usual sources of inspiration, Ikea and the DIY stores, I found these copper pipe sections which have a just over 6mm inner diameter, with a quick countersink of the MDF they can be glued into the ends, giving a robust liner for the bolt hole, a pass with the file on the other side provides the finish to what are the best end joiners I have ever made, I can even get different boards to fit together!

 

 

Now it's down to finishing all 10 pairs of them, I suspect a recurring moan of the blog will be the sheer amount of repetition when doing anything other than a three or four board layout.

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi,

 

All photo's are of interest, you never know what nuggets they might show that you didn't know. 

 

I assume you mean this signal?

10-B.jpg0013.jpg

 

As far as I recall it went to Chasewater Railway on closure of the sysem in the 60's.

 

I know what you mean about the smell, you're talking to a Northfield boy!

 

Regards

 

peterL

That's the one. It was still there in 1976, and probably remained until the ground frame was taken out at the time the alterations were done for the building of the Cross city stations in 1978.

 

I have two different angles on the whole signal and a close-up of the weight bar and rotating crank. I will scan and post later in the week.

 

I was born near the Golden Cross, in earshot of the West Suburban line.

[jwealleans]

Just a thought for you, but Cadbury's used to receive Italian ferry vans (I assume loaded with fruit). I have a photo of a rake of them being shunted somewhere in the complex.

[2ManySpams]

Cracking prototype and fantastic board construction. Well done that man.

[peter220950]

Just a thought for you, but Cadbury's used to receive Italian ferry vans (I assume loaded with fruit). I have a photo of a rake of them being shunted somewhere in the complex.

Hi,

 

Yes I was aware of the vans and have a couple of photo's but they have come from a trawl of the Works Magazine, and are therefore of poor quality, any more photo's gratefully accepted! I think they were bringing strawberries in, in the days before air freight and the like.

 

 

There is also evidence of a Belgian van in the past,

 

And I have already started to cut and shut Lima ferry vans, though it remains to be seen how long wheelbase wagons will behave on tight curves.

 

 

Regards

 

peterL

Edited June 25, 2013 by peter220950

[jwealleans]

That second photo is the one I have, but the others are new to me. Have a glance through this page for some more photos.

 

The top two shots show Italian vans of various types. I've scratchbuilt a set of these in 4mm:

 

 

 

There are 7mm models of these available from Europe but they're horribly expensive. Barrie Walls has a scratchbuilt one on his 'Wallsea Main' 7mm layout.

 

The Belgian van is actually British - it's one of the 12T vans built by the ROD for the train ferry service when it was introduced during WW 1 and then sold to the Belgians after the war. Photos of these in traffic are quite rare in my experience, they seem to have been phased out fairly quickly. I haven't built any of those yet though I'd like to. The version with the brake hut is especially quirky.

 

The French van is the same or very similar to the one in the NRM. That one is apparently painted the wrong colour, though. Yours looks as if the side vents have been panelled over.

 

 

There's a surprising amount of information out there as and when you might fancy having a go at building some. The transfers for the Italian vans are with John Peck at Precision Labels. I'm sure scaling up to 7mm wouldn't be a problem.

Edited October 17, 2018 by jwealleans

[TheGhostofNigelGresley]

Love the Belgian van - strong chance this would have come into Harwich from Zeebrugge.

 

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock9.htm

 

I'm guessing a lot of the cargo would have been nuts ?

 

This is all very interesting - I haven't yet come across a kit with that exact pattern of outside framing, but will let you know if I do.

 

Bill Bedford is the closest so far - check the D16 outside frame van http://www.mousa.biz/sevenmm/wagons/gcr_wagons7.html

[jwealleans]

strong chance this would have come into Harwich from Zeebrugge.

 

 

Absolte dead cert - there was no other way in until 1936 and the latest photo of one of those I've seen in traffic is 1927. 

 

Traffic I'm less sure about, there's very little surviving evidence from that far back.  I've seen the 20T version branded for Anglo-Italian traffic and with extra vents added so I'm guessing fruit or something equally perishable.  The opens (I'm told) were used for marble from north Italy.

 

There isn't a kit for either, hence my scratchbuilding them.

[Edge]

I think (don't rely just on me, for gods sake) that Cadbury used to import raisins and currants from Italy for its fruit and nut bars. They are reasonably perishable traffic, and so would have needed ventilated vans.

 

Also, lest we forget, there had to be shipments of the Chocolate fruit (Cocau?) from Ghana, and rails across Europe would have been a decent way to achieve this. That's a complete guess by the way, got absolutely no evidence to back it up

 

If you were thinking of modelling the railway in its later years, there is a rather handsome diesel shunter sitting next to the kids play area at Cadbury world. You can virtually climb on it

[RedgateModels]

No mention of how the PPM will fit into the layout

[peter220950]

Many thanks for the kind words of support, it helps keep focus, and as a secondary benefit I think it's helping improve the modelling as close up photographs can be horribly honest!

 

Responding to some of the replies, (I didn't realise I was going to need a secretary):-

 

jwalleans - Thanks for the information, particularly on transfers, any ideas on scale drawings? -  it's going to be a long time until I get to rolling stock but I have had a bit of a play while 'armchair modelling' the layout - the Lima van has been chopped up a bit, and now forms a quick interim solution kit.

 

 

The Anglo Belgian van may have been an archive photo but is also shown in a Works Magazine dated 1949 with commentary 'For many months Bournville consignments have been travelling in wagons operated by Anlo-Belgian Ferry Boat Company, and were confirmed as travelling via Zebrugge. The clothing certainly seems to be in keeping with this period.

 

 

 

Chris, there were indeed a lot of Brazil nuts brought in - quite a lot!

 

 

 

Edge,

 

Yes the variety of traffic was one of the attractions, as well as cocoa and fruit they imported beet sugar from Europe and Cane from the tropical islands, milk, crumb (milk processed at outlying factories, packing materials, tinplate, timber coal as well as almonds, oranges, cherries, pineapples and cherries. The raisins came from Venezuala. All this in addition to building materials to feed the expansion of the factory. So I can get away with pretty much anything I like, I even have a photo of Midland Railway carriages having been taken into the works to show visitors around.

 

 

The diesel outside is No 14, a Hudswell Clarke, which never worked at Bournville as far as I can tell, having been stationed at their Moreton factory. The onle diesels they operated were the North British 0-4-0's of which two passed to Rom River Ltd on closure of the factory, and one of which I drove in the 1980's at their Lichfield site.

 

 

Ian,

 

By the time the layout is completed I anticipate the Class 139 to be a regular sight on the whole Network Rail system, and will be able to run it up and down the main line!

 

 

Once again many thanks to all for your input, it is appreciated

 

peterL

 

 

[jwealleans]

Well, Peter, if you PM me with what you want I can probably help you out with scale drawings.  I don't have one which matches that French van exactly, but those I built look very similar apart from the vents.  Incidentally, Jon Hall of this parish may be able to help you with etched vent covers to replace the ones you've removed from that Lima van.

 

The wagon being loaded in that photo is the 20 ton ex-ROD van which was much the most common between the wars. I see yours has had some extra ventilation added. That's a new variation on me.

 

 

The one behind it is a Belgian build which were much more common after the war in this country but were built in 1917 so that doesn't help. Mine are based on a resin casting by the aforementioned Jon Hall.

 

 

I'm told that almost all the ex-ROD vans disappeared towards the Eastern front during the war, never to be seen again. Some were in traffic post-1945 but not many; almost all the photographs I have from that period show the peak roofed ones.

Edited October 17, 2018 by jwealleans