Pre-Group modelling

[JimF51]

I have 2 questions, which I'll ask here.

 

First, should we ask that a Pre-Grouping sub forum be created, to allow discussion of non Southern area line to be discussed?

 

As I am still trying to settle on which scale to work in, my second question is more general:

 

For all the 'bits and bobs' to recreate that late 1800's/early 1900's time period, can anyone say how readily available such items are, in O, verses OO?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim F

[mikeandnel]

Hello JimF51

What a wonderful idea for a seperate forum on pre-grouping only!!

If that can be done I am sure it would have a reasonable following, judging by the responses to my original posting.

Who do we ask to get it set up?

Concerning pre-group bits and pieces, I personally can't help you as I have never gone into the subject, being an EM gauge modeller, but I am sure that there are many people out there who could give you advice

If you read the blogs and forum postings you should come across 'O' gauge modellers that you could ask The post above yours in this subject , for example

Michael

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I too have some interest in pre-grouping...but geographically it is firmly in LBSCR territory (what you mean there were other companies?!   ). A general group for pre-grouping models and discussions sounds like a great idea...

 

I have been making plans (for what seems to be an age now) for a small N gauge layout making use of a new(ish) range of code 40 track, set in 1890s Sussex...basically using Dapol Terriers and Etched Pixels Stroudley 4-wheelers. Work and other circumstances have got in the way thus far, but fingers crossed I'll get something moving sooner rather than later!

 

Keep the photos coming though...they are always interesting to see!

[burgundy]

For all the 'bits and bobs' to recreate that late 1800's/early 1900's time period, can anyone say how readily available such items are, in O, verses OO?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim F

Jim

I model in 4mm scale so I am not sure that I can offer a very objective opinion. However if you look in the thread entitled Southern Product News, you will find that there is a quarterly update of new Brighton kits and bits that covers all scales. My impression is that, although 7mm Brighton modellers are not as well covered as those working in 4mm, there is still plenty available if you know where to look.

I hope this helps

Best wishes

Eric

[Poggy1165]

If you are a member of the Gauge O Guild there is a rather good database of 7mm products on their site. Unfortunately you need a membership number to access it though. One excellent source of castings is Laurie Griffin, though he does tend to focus on particular companies. His products, while not cheap, are of the first quality. I mention him because he springs to mind - I recently sent him a rather large cheque - but there are other sources (depending on what exactly you want) including Slaters Plastikard, Alan Gibson and Hobbyhorse. Oh, and Ragstone Models do some nice stuff too, especially for the GER.

[BG John]

I have 2 questions, which I'll ask here.

 

First, should we ask that a Pre-Grouping sub forum be created, to allow discussion of non Southern area line to be discussed?

 

As I am still trying to settle on which scale to work in, my second question is more general:

 

For all the 'bits and bobs' to recreate that late 1800's/early 1900's time period, can anyone say how readily available such items are, in O, verses OO?

 

Thanks.

 

Jim F

I thinks that's a great idea, but we need to remember than "pre grouping" covers around 90 years, from the invention of the railway. It's also been 90 years since the grouping, with the big four, nationalisation and privatisation. So it's a big and very diverse period. Having said that, we all suffer from a lack of commercial support, technical issues and a different historical culture, so it could be really useful. I look forward to the day when there's so much interest that it needs further dividing!

[JimF51]

Thanks all, for the replies...

 

Claude, my interest is the SECR and the LBSC, and I'll probably do some fictional setting, allowing both companies to make appearances. I've worked in US N scale most of my rail modelling life, and did look at UK N, but is there really enough of the non railway type items to model the early time periods? And for any locos other than the Terrier, they would either have to be kit (if there are any) or scratch built, correct?

 

Eric, modelling in OO (4mm) is still on the table , was just wondering about the 7mm availability. And I was wondering more about the non railway items like structures, vehicles, figures, that sort of thing.

 

BG John, you're correct, it does cover a large time span, but I'm guessing that there are too few modellers modelling in any one part of that span, to warrent any more of a specialized sub forum, such as a SECR, or GER, etc.. Pre Grouping one. But a sub forum for that time period might work, at least to keep from having to wade through Big 4 and later period topics.

 

Just a thought.

 

Jim F

[Claude_Dreyfus]

In N gauge...

 

For LBSCR, the Dapol Terrier is the only r-t-r offering. There are a couple of kits out there for an E4, and I think Langley also do an E2. Many years ago Graham Hughes(?) produced one of the lovely Billington K class moguls. Worsley Works do a scratch aid for the C2X, and also another E4. I have also seen someone bash a Dapol 14xx into a D1 tank.

 

Union Mills produce an ex LSWR T9 and Drummond 700, and if memory serves an Adams 0395 0-6-0 tender engine. Dapol, of course, produced the M7.

 

I don't think there is anything SECR, although Worsley Works may have something. Perhaps we should keep our fingers crossed that Bachmann will get the shrink-ray out onto the Wainwright C.

 

There is a good range from Etched Pixels for wagons and carriages. Worsley Works also provide some bits, including an LBSCR 1921(?)pushpull set.

[BG John]

BG John, you're correct, it does cover a large time span, but I'm guessing that there are too few modellers modelling in any one part of that span, to warrent any more of a specialized sub forum, such as a SECR, or GER, etc.. Pre Grouping one. But a sub forum for that time period might work, at least to keep from having to wade through Big 4 and later period topics.

It might encourage more people to have a go too.

[SRman]

In N gauge...

 

For LBSCR, the Dapol Terrier is the only r-t-r offering. There are a couple of kits out there for an E4, and I think Langley also do an E2. Many years ago Graham Hughes(?) produced one of the lovely Billington K class moguls. Worsley Works do a scratch aid for the C2X, and also another E4. I have also seen someone bash a Dapol 14xx into a D1 tank.

 

... <snipped> ...

 

That reminds me, Bachmann are to produce an E4 in OO so it may well develop an N scale version in due course.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Have put in a request for a new Pre-grouping special interest group. Apologies if this has already been requested...

[burgundy]

It might encourage more people to have a go too.

Certainly worth encouraging other people to have a go.

However, anyone getting serious about pre-group modelling is probably going to want to join the appropriate "line" society - which will probably have its own e-group. As an example, the Brighton Circle has a website, which includes information on available models. It is in need of a bit of a spring clean (should the webmaster be reading this), but it still gives a good idea of the available suppliers - or, at worst, what to look out for on e-bay.

Best wishes

Eric

[BG John]

Certainly worth encouraging other people to have a go.

However, anyone getting serious about pre-group modelling is probably going to want to join the appropriate "line" society - which will probably have its own e-group. As an example, the Brighton Circle has a website, which includes information on available models. It is in need of a bit of a spring clean (should the webmaster be reading this), but it still gives a good idea of the available suppliers - or, at worst, what to look out for on e-bay.

Best wishes

Eric

That doesn't mean RMweb isn't useful as well. The Broad Gauge Society is a great source of products, information on available models and prototype information, but not so great for general period modelling help. I'm sure other line societies are similar.

[burgundy]

That doesn't mean RMweb isn't useful as well. The Broad Gauge Society is a great source of products, information on available models and prototype information, but not so great for general period modelling help. I'm sure other line societies are similar.

John

I think we are in violent agreement!

There is a lot of useful ground to be covered in general historical research, sources of period products and the techniques for dealing with the challenges of period models. RMWeb has been very helpful on a number of occasions.

I don't know about other line societies, but, in my view, the strength of the Brighton Circle has been the core of historical research, which has supported some dedicated cottage industries, which in turn have facilitated modelling, which has prompted further research; it has been a virtuous circle from which all have benefited. As a modeller of the Brighton, I would have found it very difficult to get as far as I have without the support and knowledge of other Circle members.

Best wishes

Eric     

[Graham_Muz]

Have put in a request for a new Pre-grouping special interest group. Apologies if this has already been requested...

 

That does make sense. 

 

Although this thread is in the Southern Railway Group area I am more than happy for discussions on the constituent companies of the SR to be discussed here and in the mean time also if it helps keep things in one place other pre grouping companies too (when a new interest group is formed we can split the topic accordingly and move to the new section).

 

regards and keep talking...

[mikeandnel]

Claude

Thanks for putting in with the request for a special interest group on pre-grouping modelling.

 

Graham

I agree with your premise completely, and the only reason I started this thread was a seemingly lack of posts about the subject. I started it under Southern Railway Group also because I personally model the Southern Railway constituent companies. If we can get this proposed new  pre-group sub group up and running covering all aspects and areas of pre-group activity then, if the demand is there, the sub-group could then be sub-divided into seperate entities for each company. That seems a long way ahead but a possibility. 

 

Eric,

What you say is most important and for me also the Brighton Circle is a mine of information, If we could get input and connections into the subject of pre-group from other historical societies who do the same for their railway companies, then there is no knowing where this might lead!

 

Keep it coming, gentlemen (and ladies)

 

Michael

[Bruciethefish]

Considering where I live, some of my main interests are LBSC & SECR, Though I'm also modelling pre-group Isle of Wight & early Somerset & Dorset, with a little LSWR thrown in, all of which then go through into SR & a little BR as well. I particularly enjoy painting the early liveries, though after more than half a lifetime in the business, I still haven't managed to build a layout...

[JimF51]

Claude, Thanks for putting in the request. I wasn't sure how one went about it, so only wrote to Admin., haven't heard back yet. Hope your request gets a result.

 

All, I guess I envision a Pre-Grouping sub forum more as a central point for exchanging information on how to model the 'world' of that time period, more that a clearing house for info on specific railways. As was mentioned, most lines have a Society of one type or another for sharing information on it's subject railway. Most have a web presence, and may also have a forum or email group of some sort. I am on the SECR yahoo group, and the members do share info, but it is very railway equipment and infrastructure orientated.

 

Jim F

[Flymo748]

All, I guess I envision a Pre-Grouping sub forum more as a central point for exchanging information on how to model the 'world' of that time period, more that a clearing house for info on specific railways. As was mentioned, most lines have a Society of one type or another for sharing information on it's subject railway. Most have a web presence, and may also have a forum or email group of some sort. I am on the SECR yahoo group, and the members do share info, but it is very railway equipment and infrastructure orientated.

 

I would echo exactly that for the Great Eastern Railway Society.  Lots and lots of knowledge, but the emphasis is mostly on timetables/loco-spotting/rolling stock usage and not information that is useful for modelling. 

 

The GERS email list would complement a section on RMWeb, not be in competition with it.

 

I would certainly be a frequent visitor (and hopefully contributor) to a Pre-Grouping Forum over here.

 

Cheers

Flymo

[mikeandnel]

I would agree with all the comments coming in to this thread, that the subject should be limited to modelling the pre-group period generally, and should not seek to impinge on the excellent work of individual railway societies, who are a mine of information for those of us with a particular interest..

I, for one however, feel a need to pick other modellers brains when I have a problem, as well as looking for hints and tips on ways of improving my modelling.

Michael

.

[Buckjumper]

I would agree with all the comments coming in to this thread, that the subject should be limited to modelling the pre-group period generally, and should not seek to impinge on the excellent work of individual railway societies, who are a mine of information for those of us with a particular interest..

 

Conversely, rather than impinge on the excellent work of the line societies, if this became a forum for prototype info as well as modelling I think it could be the catalyst for articles and research which would instead benefit the Societies (and make your Journal/Newsletter editors very happy!). It's too easy to be boxed into our chosen pre-Group company when often there's a bigger picture to see, and there is currently nowhere that facilitates that. I've been a member of the GERS for years, but when I started to plan my East London project which encompasses not only the GER but the GNR, Midland, Metropolitan, Great Western, Brighton, South Eastern and Chatham lines I joined some of the other line societies and it's been a revelation to see the crossover of ideas between companies. I found several areas where research had stalled for want of information which was later to be found in the possession of members of another society. Some of that I've been able to run with and has ended up on my blog, but it is of course geographically limited, so perhaps here is an opportunity to bring more into the open and reinvigorate research.

 

Edit: Grammar!

Edited July 20, 2013 by Buckjumper

[JimF51]

Ideally, perhaps, there should be a Pre-Grouping forum, with a sub forums devoted to the individual railways? Perhap those sub forums sanctioned by the official Associations? That way, general period modelling would be discussed in the main forum, and modelling of specific Railway items would be in the appropriate sub group. Much like a central info building, where one could wander the hall, and look in a specific room, either out of curiousity, or for specific info. It would save having to go various different web sites, and would promote more cross information sharing, as Buckjumper suggests.

 

For my self, I do hope to settle my mental quandry of scale/gauge, and get get into some actual modelling, soon.

 

Jim F

[mikeandnel]

Buckjumper,

I could not have put it better myself. I was just trying hard not to tread on anyone's toes!

Michael

[Graham_Muz]

Andy is aware of the request for a new special interest group and will hopefully set it up on Monday.

 

Thoughts on its structure would be welcome and the initial companies of interest, as obviously we can't cover everything immediately.

[BG John]

Andy is aware of the request for a new special interest group and will hopefully set it up on Monday.

 

Thoughts on its structure would be welcome and the initial companies of interest, as obviously we can't cover everything immediately.

I think part of the attraction is not to relate it too closely to individual companies at the moment, as that's what the line societies cover, but to cover the unique challenges of modelling the period. Maybe we should just encourage people to put the company name in the thread title, where appropriate, or to tag it.

 

The grouping that mainly affects me happened in 1875, when the GWR, Bristol and Exeter, South Devon and Cornwall Railways amalgamated, and the 1923 one was just when the GWR acquired a few extra lines! And there were many other amalgamations and takeovers in the 90 odd years covered.

 

But a big question is whether it's the place for threads on pre-grouping layouts, for discussing prototype information, and/or for building individual models, finding suitable products and modelling particular period features that many companies used.