Mike at C&M Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23442018 Reports of several killed when a Talgo train derailed on one of the new high speed lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 More pictures on Sky News: http://news.sky.com/story/1120030/train-crash-in-spain-at-least-10-killed Is the train a TGV derivative or a Talgo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2013 More pictures on Sky News: http://news.sky.com/story/1120030/train-crash-in-spain-at-least-10-killed Is the train a TGV derivative or a Talgo? Looking at the short coach, that's Talgo. They've always worked on short vehicles, in contrast to most conventional trains where coaches have become longer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2013 More pictures on Sky News: http://news.sky.com/story/1120030/train-crash-in-spain-at-least-10-killed Is the train a TGV derivative or a Talgo? From the style of the stock I would say a Talgo. If so then don't they have adjustable wheelsets to allow through running between Iberian and standard gauge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2013 Looks like a Talgo to me. Also used on NorthWest USA Cascade services! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted July 24, 2013 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Looks like a Talgo 250 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RENFE_Class_130 Some news reports giving 35 dead. One coach ended up on top of the retaining wall. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2013 Looks like a Talgo to me. Also used on NorthWest USA Cascade services! And was it the John Quincy Adams in New England more than 50 years ago? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted July 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 24, 2013 Ah yes forgot about the original Talgo set over there back then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 77 dead, 100 injured is the latest. Worse than the Quebec incident now, unfortunately. Lots of speculation in the media, which I do not intend repeating. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Heggs Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Track at this location is a tight curve and not super elevated - possibility that excess speed or track alignment was cause, considering that all the carriages left the track Ron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 From the style of the stock I would say a Talgo. If so then don't they have adjustable wheelsets to allow through running between Iberian and standard gauge I don't think all are fitted for Iberian/Standard running, though I believe they all have a system where the two wheels are mounted independently on stub-axles on an A-frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The authorities seem to be ruling out the suggestions of sabotage or terrorism that had been reported in the less respectable parts of the media. The Guardian reports both drivers survived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The authorities seem to be ruling out the suggestions of sabotage or terrorism that had been reported in the less respectable parts of the media. The Guardian reports both drivers survived. It has been reported in the last few minutes that the train-driver allegedly admitted to the rescue services that he went into the 80kph curve at close to 190 kph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Very sad. Railways seem to be going through a torrid time at present. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Here is a brief description of the train-protection system currently used in Spain, from an article in Railway Technical Web Pages by Piers Connor, Felix Schmid and Charles Watson:- ' "ASFA (Spain)ASFA is a cab-signalling and train protection system widely used in Spain. Intermittent track-to-train communication is based on magnetically coupled resonant circuits in such a way that nine different sets of data can be transmitted. A resonant circuit trackside is tuned to a frequency representing the signal aspect. The system is not fail safe, but reminds the driver of the signalling conditions and requires him to acknowledge restrictive aspects within 3s. Lamp and bell warnings are provided for the driver. Three different train types can be selected on-board to give continuous speed supervision of line speed and after passing a restrictive signal (160 km/h or 180 km/h). A speed check can be carried out (60 km/h, 50 km/h or 35 km/h, depending on train type) after passing a transponder 300m before reaching a stop signal and a train trip is provided at signals at danger. There is an irrevocable emergency brake upon violation." From this description, it would appear that an 80 kph restriction would not be subject to a brake application. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The authorities seem to be ruling out the suggestions of sabotage or terrorism that had been reported in the less respectable parts of the media. The Guardian reports both drivers survived. The problem is their memories are full of the Madrid Bombings which targeted the rail network and are still argued over... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2013 It has been reported in the last few minutes that the train-driver allegedly admitted to the rescue services that he went into the 80kph curve at close to 190 kph. That has now been mentioned on UK media Brian - although still unofficial of course. All in all a very nasty incident and one's heart goes out to the bereaved and injured. Talgo type trains appear to have a long history (almost 70 years through various marks and variants) and have seemingly been trouble free until now; a sad day for Spain, and railways in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 What you said, Mike. The other "shame" is that this is sure to become "fodder" to the Nimby's in the UK opposed to H2R. What timing for them. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2013 Track at this location is a tight curve and not super elevated Hi Ron, Any explanation for not being canted (super-elevated) on a tight curve? Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Here is a brief description of the train-protection system currently used in Spain, from an article in Railway Technical Web Pages by Piers Connor, Felix Schmid and Charles Watson:- ' "ASFA (Spain) ASFA is a cab-signalling and train protection system widely used in Spain. Intermittent track-to-train communication is based on magnetically coupled resonant circuits in such a way that nine different sets of data can be transmitted. A resonant circuit trackside is tuned to a frequency representing the signal aspect. The system is not fail safe, but reminds the driver of the signalling conditions and requires him to acknowledge restrictive aspects within 3s. Lamp and bell warnings are provided for the driver. Three different train types can be selected on-board to give continuous speed supervision of line speed and after passing a restrictive signal (160 km/h or 180 km/h). A speed check can be carried out (60 km/h, 50 km/h or 35 km/h, depending on train type) after passing a transponder 300m before reaching a stop signal and a train trip is provided at signals at danger. There is an irrevocable emergency brake upon violation."ŷ From this description, it would appear that an 80 kph restriction would not be subject to a brake application. So the Spanish system seems very different to TVM 430 used on HS1 and TGV lines. On TVM, trains cannot travel more than 8kph above the in-cab indicated "execute" speed. There is an emergency brake intervention. The approach to "closed markers" (equivalent to a stop signal) the systems seem similar where if the train travels more than 32kph 200 metres on the approach to the marker board, an emergency brake intervenes. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2013 Hi Ron, Any explanation for not being canted (super-elevated) on a tight curve? Martin. Judging by picture I wonder if it (lack of superelevation) might also be something to do with the vertical curve? Mind you do we know for certain that there is no superelevation - if the curve is tight it will still need the lift in order to get the speed up to 80kph? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted July 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 25, 2013 Mind you do we know for certain that there is no superelevation? Presumably Ron had some expert knowledge before making that assertion. It does seem very strange though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The death toll seems unusually high for a simple derailment even at high speed. At Eschede the collapse of the road bridge was a major factor but, though I suppose the concrete retaining wall may have tended to focus the damage at Santiago de Compostela, it's too soon to speculate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 The death toll seems unusually high for a simple derailment even at high speed. At Eschede the collapse of the road bridge was a major factor but, though I suppose the concrete retaining wall may have tended to focus the damage at Santiago de Compostela, it's too soon to speculate. From the photos on the BBC, it looks like at least some of the train may have hit/climbed the rocky end of the retaining wall. Certainly the trailing power car ended up alongside it and there is some piece of equipment on top of the rock beside it. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted July 25, 2013 Share Posted July 25, 2013 That has now been mentioned on UK media Brian - although still unofficial of course. All in all a very nasty incident and one's heart goes out to the bereaved and injured. Talgo type trains appear to have a long history (almost 70 years through various marks and variants) and have seemingly been trouble free until now; a sad day for Spain, and railways in general. With Canada, France and now Spain, railways are certainly having a torrid time at present. My sympathy to all the victims, including those on the railways who suddenly find themselves caught up in tragedy and the focus of (often ill-informed) public attention. No real clues yet as to the cause of this but, as I recall, the Talgos used by Amtrak on the Seattle-Vancouver BC 'Cascades' were not entirely trouble-free. Problems with (I believe) metal fatigue in the tilt structure, caused all the cars to be temporarily taken out of traffic for attention a few summers back. I know very little about Spanish equipment and have no idea if the train involved was similar. As I understand the Talgo system, the car bodies are suspended, pendulum-like, from a structure on the bogie, and not at all like our tilting train arrangement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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