Gt.Shefford Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Had a second go - hopefully more like fabric sides and less like a WW2 air raid shelter. The sag took quite a while to achieve and is still a bodge, but it is a 'watertight' mesh. Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Had a second go - hopefully more like fabric sides and less like a WW2 air raid shelter. The sag took quite a while to achieve and is still a bodge, but it is a 'watertight' mesh. wagon side test 2.jpg Jonathan looking good, just needs crumples in the fabric, mind if I could have the file? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I think I get it, Adam – your dad's buying a new printer for his work and you're getting involved with your hobby. The only cost to you will be the materials. That's a superbly cheap way to learn, much cheaper than even getting them printed elsewhere. Well done, you're very fortunate. I think you'll learn a lot very quickly, and the best bit is it would have cost you very little. That's a huge advantage over anyone else at this stage. If I were you I would learn all you can about the printer you intend to buy and get samples from a demo to learn what it can do and what it can't. Maybe you can offer a printing service to compete with the bigger established companies, but the pricing will have to be comparable with the quality you can achieve and how long it takes to complete. With a trickle of cash coming in you can afford to do some real research about what modellers want and what they're prepared to pay. And why stop at model railways? You're very lucky to be in your position so don't waste it by ignoring some very sound advice. Best of luck to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Jonathan, Its a bit difficult to describe, its not the sag between the roof hoops, but the sort of random stretched material/crumpled effect that's missing - have a look at this photo from Paul Bartlett, particularly around the cantrail area - too regular looks wrong. http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/tiphooksteel/h3FBEAFFB#h20f50eae Its more telling that you have managed two trial drawings today, but Adam hasn't shown us any of his CAD skills that even suggest that he has what it takes to knock up a whole one. Edit - and whilst I've been typing has asked for the file - Adam, wouldn't it be better to draw your own - then you will know that the dimensions match your research - assuming you have done some? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Boar Fell Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Yes, I think you are right - I went the Lima hack route (described in DEMU's Update by Brian W) for a single Tiphook hood, but then copied it in resin to produce more, initially as a stop gap until I work out how to do the Powel Duffrin hoods for Hamworthy. tiphookhood001.jpg I must have the left over bits of the second hood somewhere, but I can't quite think where??? Jon Edit to add photo Hello Jon, I know one way of being able to do the PDUK hoods, its still a work in progress though. I am working backwards from the JXA (which they were converted into) as I have successfully had one test printed and intent to do the hoods for myself. Apologies to Adam for going off topic. Regards, Wild Boar Fell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Hello Jon, I know one way of being able to do the PDUK hoods, its still a work in progress though. I am working backwards from the JXA (which they were converted into) as I have successfully had one test printed and intent to do the hoods for myself. PXA PD 071a1.jpg Apologies to Adam for going off topic. Regards, Wild Boar Fell Yes I'd noticed that! the thing is that the fabric is a really subtle effect, and I'm not sure that you are going to achieve it in google sketchup either - not that I have a solution for how it could be done.... Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Boar Fell Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 Jon, yes the hood itself I was going to try paper for as someone used it on some hoods in Model Rail a few years back and it worked all right to me. It should also make them a lot cheaper if you just provide the stantions/ supports (That may be worth considering for your printed ones Adam). Cheers, Wild Boar Fell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 what about using material simulation to make the hoods (I can't do it but hopefully someone else can) or take the basic shape and use modeling putty then scan it in 3D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 looking good, just needs crumples in the fabric, mind if I could have the file? I'm sure Jonathan could raise an invoice, what a couple of hours at £30 an hour? what about using material simulation to make the hoods (I can't do it but hopefully someone else can) Well if you want someone else to draw the whole lot I'm sure it should be possible for a skilled CAD technician in maybe 100 hours to get to a print-ready .stl file - assuming of course you have all the research material - so say £3000? I couldn't do the CAD to that level, but could do the research if you like, say £20 an hour for my time, shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks say £1500 plus expenses - fuel to go down to South Wales and look at a few, a couple of nights in a hotel, another £500 tops. So for only five grand you could be ready to print your £10 wagon without doing the hard work. Unfortunately I'm a bit short of holiday leave this year, so couldn't start until next spring... Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 nope they are injection molded this is the printer i plan on using http://printrbot.com/ I've just read about ten pages of the assembly instructions for the printrbot, laser cut ply, fishing line and zip ties and you think that this will produce a quality end product? If I were you I'd put the $999 towards a CNC milling machine and make two part dies that could be used for moulding resin parts. If you still want to go down the printerbot road, what is the resolution that the M/C will work to? To get any thing like a good quality it will have to be able to work to 0.05mm (0.002") on all dimensions and keep doing it on all parts. You asked for help. These are my ideas. After all it's your money. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 Only an idea Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 I've just read about ten pages of the assembly instructions for the printrbot, laser cut ply, fishing line and zip ties and you think that this will produce a quality end product? If I were you I'd put the $999 towards a CNC milling machine and make two part dies that could be used for moulding resin parts. If you still want to go down the printerbot road, what is the resolution that the M/C will work to? To get any thing like a good quality it will have to be able to work to 0.05mm (0.002") on all dimensions and keep doing it on all parts. You asked for help. These are my ideas. After all it's your money. OzzyO. 0.05mm = 50 microns which cowincadentaly (did I spell that right?) is the working resolution of the machine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I'm sure Jonathan could raise an invoice, what a couple of hours at £30 an hour? Well if you want someone else to draw the whole lot I'm sure it should be possible for a skilled CAD technician in maybe 100 hours to get to a print-ready .stl file - assuming of course you have all the research material - so say £3000? I couldn't do the CAD to that level, but could do the research if you like, say £20 an hour for my time, shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks say £1500 plus expenses - fuel to go down to South Wales and look at a few, a couple of nights in a hotel, another £500 tops. So for only five grand you could be ready to print your £10 wagon without doing the hard work. Unfortunately I'm a bit short of holiday leave this year, so couldn't start until next spring... Jon Steady on. The OP had a go at me for being sarcastic. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 0.05mm = 50 microns which cowincadentaly (did I spell that right?) is the working resolution of the machine. You're going to struggle to produce anything worthwhile with that layer resolution. For architectural builds it's probably absolutely fine - most structures contain many flat surfaces, mainly at right angles. Producing curves and transitions are extremely resolution-dependant to look convincing and at 4mm scale, even 7mm scale, that just isn't enough I'm afraid. You need to be looking and something way under 20 microns to produce smooth curves in the scales you're talking about, unless you're prepared to do a lot of hand-finishing. Have you thought about bringing more prototypes to the larger scales, where small areas of fine resolution isn't so much of a problem to overcome? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gt.Shefford Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Just watched the Tested video for the Formlads Form 1 3d printer. This is I believe is a real step forward as rather than an FDM process its actually a desktop SLA (sterolithography) 'printer'. The machine is capable of 0.025 resoluion, but whats more impressive is that the Formlab software as it will alow you to choose the build orientation and will automatically add any support structure. Well worth a watch Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I personally think that SLA printing has much longer legs than filament printing as only a small change in the resin viscosity, a finer degree of control of the laser and slightly more accurate focussing of the laser will double the effective resolution the printer can produce and for only a modest increase in price. The same results by a traditional filament printer costs well into five figures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Nice though the Form 1 is, it is worth bearing in mind Formlabs have been embroiled in patent disputes for some time. However, there is apparently some hope that these might be settled in September this year. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 Yes, I think you are right - I went the Lima hack route (described in DEMU's Update by Brian W) for a single Tiphook hood, but then copied it in resin to produce more, initially as a stop gap until I work out how to do the Powel Duffrin hoods for Hamworthy. tiphookhood001.jpg I must have the left over bits of the second hood somewhere, but I can't quite think where??? Jon Edit to add photo When you find it, Jon, you'll find it handy for doing either an SNCF or GE hooded coil... The Reverend has done me a couple of nice Coil A/Coil B hoods using a plasticard frame, covered with thin tissue and then painted with thick acrylic to give a texture. Is there any mileage in the idea of prototyping in media such as that, then somehow scanning them to produce a final printed product? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 You're going to struggle to produce anything worthwhile with that layer resolution. You are with a filament extruding machine, but these parts were done at 50 micron slice: SLA is the way forward for detailed scale model parts, none of the other current additive technologies come close, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 0.05mm = 50 microns which cowincadentaly (did I spell that right?) is the working resolution of the machine. Are you confusing the accuracy of the machine, with the layer resolution? I'm not aware of any fused filament machine with a nozzle smaller than 0.2mm, with 0.3 and 0.4mm being more common, making 0.05mm layers physically impossible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted August 1, 2013 Author Share Posted August 1, 2013 Ar you confusing the accuracy of the machine, with the layer resolution? I'm not aware of any fused filament machine with a nozzle smaller than 0.2mm, with 0.3 and 0.4mm being more common, making 0.05mm layers physically impossible. that i may be doing (time to do some more poking about) specks from the website Print Resolution 0.1mm Tip Size 0.4mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atso Posted August 1, 2013 Share Posted August 1, 2013 I have to agree I'm afraid that a 50 micron layer thickness is not going to be sufficient using a filament extruding machine. Shapeways Frosted Ultra Detail (FUD) prints with a layer thickness of 30 microns and usually needs some cleaning up to get an acceptable surface finish. The smallest details possible here are 0.1mm so care has to be exercised at times not to knock these off during clean up. An example of a FUD model which is one of the cheaper higher resolution materials currently available via a printing bureau clearly shows the printing layers - apologies to anyone who has seen these elsewhere on RMW but they illustrate the problems experienced on a higher spec machine that the one being discussed by the OP here. In this case the surface was brought up to a high standard with around three hours careful sanding - not including time taken to re-prime and let the paint dry! For an affordable home set up I think that Pugsley has hit the nail on the head that SLA cannot be beaten. The parts he has shown here (as well as other examples in the 3D printing forum) are the closest to FUD I've seen so far and very impressive on a 'hobby' machine. The best finish I've seen is Finelines 'green' material which seems to have an almost perfect finish from the machine but at $350 for the body shown above a little on the expensive side (lord only knows what the machine cost!). One other thing, I haven't seen anyone mention the time taken to build a 3D part (sorry if somebody has already mentioned this!). From discussion, several of my models have taken several hours to print with the record, that I know of, being 17 hours (not on any of the Shapeways machines). All my models are N gauge so much smaller than a 4mm scale piece - as the old saying goes, time is money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Hello, as the old saying goes, time is money. The quote is from the post above and the reply below is a reference to overhead costs which have not been considered. That would mean expense for electricity, which has not been mentioned as a cost consideration previously.Possibly quite substantial in some cases. trustytrev. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 0.05mm = 50 microns which cowincadentaly (did I spell that right?) is the working resolution of the machine. Which coincidently is not shown on your list below. Are you confusing the accuracy of the machine, with the layer resolution? I'm not aware of any fused filament machine with a nozzle smaller than 0.2mm, with 0.3 and 0.4mm being more common, making 0.05mm layers physically impossible. I'm with Pugsley on this one in that your confusing the length and width (X and Y axis?) with the depth axis (Z? axis). Looking at the assembly instructions that uses fishing line for one of these directions. I think that it will be pushing the consistency. that i may be doing (time to do some more poking about) specks from the websitePrint Resolution 0.1mmTip Size 0.4mm If I'm reading the above correctly, the tip size will govern the size of the smallest part that you can print 0.4mm (approx 0.016") so that works out at approx 28.8mm (1.133" [ just over 1 1/8"]) in 4mm. The print resolution at 0.1mm works out to be 7,2mm (approx 0.28" [just over 1/4"]) in 4mm. Looking at the above, I would still say that you would be better off spending the $999 (approx £655) towards a DDR (direct digital readout) CNC vertical milling machine. This should give you a consistency of 0.012mm (0.0005") or better on all dimensions. With this you would be able to make moulds for coach sides (as long as the L - R axis is over 350mm), and the in - out axis was about 80mm (approx 3.5"). Along with a vertical movement of about 150mm (approx. 6"). As you mentioned in one of your posts, you have CAD and CNC training so the mill should be something that you're used to working with. For its second use the architectural models You would need the in - out axis to be about 150mm (6"). You would then have to assemble two or more parts to get the hight of the model. Would you also give us the overall sizes that the prinabot can work to L x W x H. When I looked at one of them it looked to be 1.75mm and the second one 3mm. For the hight. One thing that you should be thinking about is that if you make a mould for any model you can repeat the parts for them as and when you get an order for them. If you have to make a one off part that may take 5 hours to make one, and some one wants 20 that's two and a half working weeks (100 hours). It may take 20 hours to make a mould but only 1 hour to make a part, so that works out to be 40 hours or one working week. To make the same number of parts. The above has not taken into account the time that you have to spend to start making the drawing, and writing the programs to start making a start on the job. You would have to do the same for both types of M/C. To get where you want to go in your first post I think that your dad may have to have a very deep pocket £20,000+ to get the size and quality of M/C that you require. I may be a bit out on the price. I would like to ask another couple of questions. How old are you and how long have you been in to railway modelling? These two question may help all of us when we're trying to answer your questions. OzzyO. 53 and have been modelling for about 35 years+. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamphillip Posted August 2, 2013 Author Share Posted August 2, 2013 I am 18 and have been doing railway modeling since I was about 5 (in the vaguest sense of the word) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.