Bachmann to produce ex LBSC Atlantic H2 Class 4-4-2

[oOld Harry 666]

For me, the real question is how long until a model of 251 forms the next NRM /Bachmann exclusive?

 

Gotta get me one of them!!

 

 

I suspect that by the time we actually see these models released (probably 2016 adding a year on to Bachmann's suggestions to be more in line with their recent timescales) the H2 will have been joined by the C1 GNR Atlantic.

 

After all the differences were actually marked in red ink on a set of GNR drawings!

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

I'm quite happy at the news of the H2, partly because I'd like one or two for my SR collection, but mainly because it makes a GNR/LNER C1 much more likely to appear.

[37255]

Another obscure mainline loco, yet still the only RTR industrial steam loco is the Dapol/Hornby austerity... Far be it from me to question those making the decisions, I'm sure they've costed it all out, just seems strange!

[Dunsignalling]

I can live with slightly undersized wheels (real wheels got turned down by a bit over their lives) but I feel sure that it will take a bit more than that to sort the bogie out.

 

On the O4 the relationship between the pony truck and the cylinder was tweaked to get some side movement on the pony and it is all but undetectable without measuring, so Bachmann do have some experience of such tricks. I wonder if they might put the bogie pivot between the rear bogie wheels, to minimise the movement on that pair.

 

Tony

Another possibility would be to mount the bogie on a cam so that it gets pushed forward slightly as it enters a curve, thereby providing the required clearance when it is needed but returning to a 'scale' appearance on straight track.

 

The action would be basically similar to that of the close coupler units that have become familiar on r-t-r coaches in recent years.

 

John

[Oldddudders]

Another obscure mainline loco, yet still the only RTR industrial steam loco is the Dapol/Hornby austerity... Far be it from me to question those making the decisions, I'm sure they've costed it all out, just seems strange!

Obscure is a relative term, in fairness. The 11 Brighton Atlantics were the mainstay of the mainline until electrification in 1933.

 

I think it's what the motor industry refers to as "showroom appeal". A big, or even medium-size, tender loco with a nameplate will sell itself all over the place, while there is always a call for more versions of the humble 0-6-0, which were far more numerous, but do not have the glamour. Sadly industrial steam finds itself even further down the glitz register.

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Also, with the new-build Atlantic under way, the model should have sustained sales appeal for a while yet.

[coachmann]

Another obscure mainline loco, yet still the only RTR industrial steam loco is the Dapol/Hornby austerity... Far be it from me to question those making the decisions, I'm sure they've costed it all out, just seems strange!

Words fail me.

[Arthur]

I think it's what the motor industry refers to as "showroom appeal".

 

Agreed, I'm a modeller of the industrial scene, I build etched kits and, yes, would like to see some RTR industrial locos. My main line interests are set in the Manchester area. A Brighton Atlantic has absolutely no part in any of my schemes.

 

Will I buy one, you betcha! Why?, I just like the look of them, 'Showroom Appeal', and I won't be alone.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Arthur

[37255]

Well clearly I'm in a minority (within this thread ) so fair play!

Edited September 3, 2013 by 37255

[coachmann]

I've seen cine of this Brighton Atlantic some place...Maybe by Cam Camwell. By the mid 1950s it's grace of movement was unusual and a reminder of another age. Like Arthuir it is likely I will buy one unless the smoke signals indicate the GNR version is on the wind. I rather think the latter is likely seeing as a GNR version plus the Brighton version will cover a pretty large area of country.

[burgundy]

I suspect that by the time we actually see these models released (probably 2016 adding a year on to Bachmann's suggestions to be more in line with their recent timescales) the H2 will have been joined by the C1 GNR Atlantic.

 

After all the differences were actually marked in red ink on a set of GNR drawings!

At the risk of being pedantic, the drawings, marked up from the GNR originals, will have been for the H1 class, to be sent off to Kitson's for construction in 1905. The H2s were a batch built at Brighton in 1911 and were "tidied up" by Lawson Billinton, Marsh's successor. "Tidying up" involved fitting a superheater, but, more important visually, straightening out the running plate, so that it had only three different levels, rather than five on the H1s - and, I believe, the GNR C1s. Whilst I can see that boiler fittings and similar add-on bits can be re-engineered on a model production line without too much difficulty, I would have thought that, by the time you have changed the cab, boiler fittings and running plate, you are actually looking at a complete new body. Not impossible, when the same chassis will probably serve, but not just minor tweaking.

Best wishes

Eric

[oOld Harry 666]

At the risk of being pedantic, the drawings, marked up from the GNR originals, will have been for the H1 class, to be sent off to Kitson's for construction in 1905. The H2s were a batch built at Brighton in 1911 and were "tidied up" by Lawson Billinton, Marsh's successor. "Tidying up" involved fitting a superheater, but, more important visually, straightening out the running plate, so that it had only three different levels, rather than five on the H1s - and, I believe, the GNR C1s. Whilst I can see that boiler fittings and similar add-on bits can be re-engineered on a model production line without too much difficulty, I would have thought that, by the time you have changed the cab, boiler fittings and running plate, you are actually looking at a complete new body. Not impossible, when the same chassis will probably serve, but not just minor tweaking.

Best wishes

Eric

 

 

I take your point, having said that the boiler fittings will be separate fittings I would have thought, the footplate and cab certainly will be. I would think that there would be less tooling alternatives required than Hornby have needed for their A1/A3 Gresley Pacifics.

[Guest spet0114]

Not impossible, when the same chassis will probably serve, but not just minor tweaking.

 

A good point, and one worth making, but I think the main thrust of the GNR C1 argument is that having done all the leg-work and incurred the expense of developing a 4-4-2 chassis suitable for OO gauge running, Bachmann would be very keen to recoup as much of this expenditure as cheaply as possible. The relatively low cost of developing a new body for an existing chassis would not be a significant barrier to producing a C1, especially when the prototype falls into the 'ECML top-link' category which is about as near to a guaranteed revenue stream as possible in the railway model market. Add in the possibilty of a NRM exclusive edition based on No. 251 and it looks pretty likely (to my mind) that a C1 will be along before too many years have passed....

 

Cheers

Adrian

[Guest spet0114]

Also, with the new-build Atlantic under way, the model should have sustained sales appeal for a while yet.

 

Exactly. The new-build Atlantic is one of maybe three or four new-builds that look as if they will actually reach completion. Whilst no new-build will probably ever be as popular as Tornado (which was the 'first' mainline new-build and an LNER design to boot), the next couple to come to fruition will engender a lot of publicity, doubtless far more than if they had restored an original loco! 

[bigherb]

 The relatively low cost of developing a new body for an existing chassis would not be a significant barrier to producing a C1,

 

Cheers

Adrian

Bachmann have stated in the past the chassis is the cheap part the body tooling is the expensive bit.

[oOld Harry 666]

One will be difficult to refuse, and I shan't even try. A through train from Wessex to Brighton, just like the real thing.

 

It's just the gestation period that raises my eyebrows. I know that we have had the very good reasons for this explained to us, and I could not begin to make a useful suggestion for improvement. But did the brothers Bing, and Mr Frank Hornby, start the hobby by advertising wares that they could not deliver?

Ah, but have you thought they may have heard a 'Chinese whisper' that Hornby may have been looking at developing this model and that they have jumped in and announced theirs as a spoiling tactic?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

.... Whilst I can see that boiler fittings and similar add-on bits can be re-engineered on a model production line without too much difficulty, I would have thought that, by the time you have changed the cab, boiler fittings and running plate, you are actually looking at a complete new body. Not impossible, when the same chassis will probably serve, but not just minor tweaking.

 

 This is where Bachmann's typical loco body construction scores. The core of the loco body is a plastic boiler and a cast metal footplate. Separate cab, smokebox, often splashers; to which the boiler fittings and other smaller parts are then applied. So it is a whole lot of new parts to build variant bodies, as it is probably the boiler moulding only that is common. But having all the part to part fits around the boiler prototyped and proven from the first model and - one would hope  - in files on a CAD system should speed development, which means money saved, in creating variants.

 

Since Bachmann have employed elements of this technique on the A1/A2 and versions of the Hall, we know they can do it. Though an Ivaarsh CH12 probably isn't so desireable.

 

And if no C1 emerges, the modular construction makes for an easier bashing project...

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

And if no C1 emerges, the modular construction makes for an easier bashing project...

If no C1 emerges, I for one will be hacking an H2 about with gay abandon!

 

Incidentally, can anyone advise me if 2426 St Alban's Head would have worn SR olive green in the post-war Southern period, 1945-47? I've got no reference on this class to speak of, and have tried t'internet with not much success so far. I'm trying to find an excuse not to buy it...

[Judge Dread]

I wonder if Bachmann have cosidered "Hartland Point" after O.V.S.B. had finished "modifying" it?

Just a thought, don't worry, within a few minutes or so I will have forgotten it!

[Guest spet0114]

Bachmann have stated in the past the chassis is the cheap part the body tooling is the expensive bit.

 

Intriguing! Can you provide some references for this? I'm interested to know the context of this comment as it's rather counter-intuitive!

[Adams442T]

Intriguing! Can you provide some references for this? I'm interested to know the context of this comment as it's rather counter-intuitive!

Shouldn't be too difficult to work it out.  From my experience in a slightly different modelling company (Britains/First Gear)  the costs of producing basic, uncomplicated, undecorated (largely) base units was vastly outweighed by body mouldings.  Not only are they of much greater complexity, often requiring 'slot-in' alternatives for different classes, periods, etc., but also they require much more input in the R&D side, and in the mould forming itself.  Simples!

[oOld Harry 666]

I wonder if Bachmann have cosidered "Hartland Point" after O.V.S.B. had finished "modifying" it?

Just a thought, don't worry, within a few minutes or so I will have forgotten it!

At least it would not have to move more than a yard or so before it stops for workshop attention.

[Guest spet0114]

Shouldn't be too difficult to work it out.  From my experience in a slightly different modelling company (Britains/First Gear)  the costs of producing basic, uncomplicated, undecorated (largely) base units was vastly outweighed by body mouldings.  Not only are they of much greater complexity, often requiring 'slot-in' alternatives for different classes, periods, etc., but also they require much more input in the R&D side, and in the mould forming itself.  Simples!

 

However, here we're factoring in the cost of developing the 4-4-2 chassis which, as various others have alluded to above, is a non-trivial exercise and presumably why this is the first RTR atlantic announced in ~80 years of OO-gauge modelling (AFAIK).

 

This is why I was interested in the context of 'bigherb's remark - i.e. does his quote from Bachmann relate to a model where a simple, well-established chassis (an 0-6-0, say) had a complex new body moulding developed for it, or was it more relevant to this scenario - maybe relating to the development of the 4-4-0 chassis or similar?  To my mind, getting an atlantic chassis 'right' for OO would be a demanding task, involving lots of (expensive) man-hours, prototypes, test pieces etc. In contrast, producing a new body for an existing chassis (e.g. producing 251) is really an exercise in CAD (especially in these days of laser-scanning of prototype locos), and in relative terms, cheap (and simples?).

 

Anywho, as I said, all the above is just how I'd guess the land lies - always interesting to see how accurate or otherwise I am!

 

Cheers

Adrian

[Peter Bedding]

If no C1 emerges, I for one will be hacking an H2 about with gay abandon!

 

Incidentally, can anyone advise me if 2426 St Alban's Head would have worn SR olive green in the post-war Southern period, 1945-47? I've got no reference on this class to speak of, and have tried t'internet with not much success so far. I'm trying to find an excuse not to buy it...

 

There will always be an exception to every rule; however, after 1941 nearly every loco going into the paint shops came out in Bulleid's wartime utility black. I believe that 21C1 was given and retained a malachite finish, and a few of the reprieved locos retained their pre-war finish (pigmented grot). Even in war time, the Atlantics were for posh jobs, and as such they would have received the best finish that circumstances would allow. They would have been through the paint shops between 1941 and 1945, and therefore on VE day would be black. Malachite would have been applied as soon as possible thereafter, and a BR finish after 1948.

 

No doubt there will be someone with access to the loco cards in the National Archive, and can give us chapter and verse.

 

PB

[Oldddudders]

There will always be an exception to every rule; however, after 1941 nearly every loco going into the paint shops came out in Bulleid's wartime utility black. I believe that 21C1 was given and retained a malachite finish, and a few of the reprieved locos retained their pre-war finish (pigmented grot). Even in war time, the Atlantics were for posh jobs, and as such they would have received the best finish that circumstances would allow. They would have been through the paint shops between 1941 and 1945, and therefore on VE day would be black. Malachite would have been applied as soon as possible thereafter, and a BR finish after 1948.

 

No doubt there will be someone with access to the loco cards in the National Archive, and can give us chapter and verse.

 

Bradley records that 2426 received a general or intermediate overhaul at Ashford (Brighton and Eastleigh being overloaded at this time) in early 1945 - and was painted unlined black. By 1947 all the H2s had received malachite.