Bachmann to produce ex LBSC Atlantic H2 Class 4-4-2

[frobisher]

spet0114, on 03 Sept 2013 - 16:24, said:

To my mind, getting an atlantic chassis 'right' for OO would be a demanding task, involving lots of (expensive) man-hours, prototypes, test pieces etc. In contrast, producing a new body for an existing chassis (e.g. producing 251) is really an exercise in CAD (especially in these days of laser-scanning of prototype locos), and in relative terms, cheap (and simples?).

Thing is getting the chassis right is actually an exercise in CAD. The CAD we get shown isn't actually what is used to cut the tooling, but a product all the parts that cut the tooling, fitted together, and at that point you can generally also then do things with that model. You can check the fit of the parts, how all the moving parts interact and run the chassis around on some virtual track. The constraints of the physics simulation will help immensely there. So basically, you don't prototype until you've got the CAD behaving properly. By its nature, a chassis is quick to produce CAD for as there aren't too many fiddly details, there will be tons of already designed bits on file as well that can be dropped in (bearings, wheels, bits of motion etc). Sorting out a scanned set of geometry into something that can be manufactured is probably a more time consuming job. It needs a whole bunch of rationalisation, sectioned, and finessing (sometimes the physical scan resolution just isn't high enough to get the subtleties of a shape etc), but it does give a much better starting point than an incomplete set of measurements.

[Legend]

I see Hattons are offering it to pre order @£86 which seems pretty reasonable. Obviously the lessons of the recession and lack of disposable income are hitting home with manufacturers. As to announcing it as a spoiler to Hornby, remember Hornby not exactly blessed with manufacturing options at the moment.

[coachmann]

£86.00 is a 'bargain' price compared with some prices of late....I think my eye sight is going as I can't see me not buying one...

Edited September 3, 2013 by coachmann

[The Stationmaster]

I see Hattons are offering it to pre order @£86 which seems pretty reasonable. Obviously the lessons of the recession and lack of disposable income are hitting home with manufacturers. As to announcing it as a spoiler to Hornby, remember Hornby not exactly blessed with manufacturing options at the moment.

I can't understand how Hattons can do that, let alone at that level; is the information correct?  Based on current Bachmann prices these atlantics would have an RRP of c.£140-155ish but 2015 is incalculable price variations away from September 2013 so the RRP could be 10-15% greater, or more, and is hardly likely to drop I would have thought.  In fact the future is so unclear that even Bachmann don't yet quote a price for their own product!  

 

So how have Hattons arrived at a price (assuming they have)?  And if they have just how valid is it for locos which are 2 years away - all sounds very odd to me and if that price is correct I suspect they'll be getting as many advance orders from other retailers as they will from end customers.

[Graham_Muz]

To clarify, Bachmann not surprisingly at this stage have not released any pricing information.

 

Hattons have taken a flyer off their own back and if you read the text of the pricing announcement they advise they would honour any reduction in price for pre-orders but if the price increases they would advise customers accordingly to allow them to cancel the order if they wished.

 

The latter re a price increase is much more likely than the former in my mind.

[Andy Y]

The latter re a price increase is much more likely than the former in my mind.

 

I'd say you're bang on there Muz; Mike's assessment on likely pricing is broadly accurate too although no price, due to the reasons you state Mike, has been confirmed yet. 

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Thanks to Peter Bedding and Olddudders for their enlightening replies - despite that, you still haven't put me off buying St Alban's Head! I might just have to do a spot of repainting instead.

[Peter Bedding]

Ah, but have you thought they may have heard a 'Chinese whisper' that Hornby may have been looking at developing this model and that they have jumped in and announced theirs as a spoiling tactic?

 

I would guess this could be right; it could certainly avoid duplication. It is slightly ironic, though, that the 4-4-2 arrangement was the basis for the "No 2 Special" range from pre-war Hornby, (my bro had a clockwork one from new) and they appear to have let this opportunity slip.

 

I wonder if speculation on the carriages to run behind the loco is within the spirit of the thread?

[gr.king]

Practical experience with a couple of whitemetal Atlantics, with no shortage of weight to aid traction, tells me that setting up a OO Atlantic chassis properly is not just a matter of combining things that work on 4-4-0's, 4-6-0s and Pacifics. There are much bigger problems to control, including the loco's tendancy to twist/hunt on the rails and rails and to "crab" round bends, which strongly encourages the rear carrying wheels to derail in reverse running (even around 3 foot radius curves) unless some combination of weighting, springing and radial movement is present, but ANY amount of weight transfer onto those trailing wheels immediately diminishes the loco's ability pull when running forwards, as grip on the rear driven wheels is reduced. The highly probable light plastic cab and boiler will not simplify matters!

An "Emily" arrangement of geared drive to the rear carrying wheels might provide an interesting way out of trouble.

[Captain Kernow]

Well clearly I'm in a minority (within this thread ) so fair play!

I wouldn't feel too 'embattled' by this, though... in general terms, you're quite right. Here we have another 'glamorous' main line loco being announced, which will rightly delight Southern/LBSC followers, and which will also generate it's own market due to it's attractiveness. I can see myself being sorely tempted along the way...

 

However, the point you make about industrials is spot on - given the relative plethora of Hornby 'Austerities' and Dapol/Model Rail 'Sentinels' now gracing many layouts, you do have to wonder at what point a manufacturer is going to realise the 'collectability' of almost limitless livery possibilities for even a bog-standard Peckett or Andrew Barclay...

 

Anyway, back to the Brighton Atlantics, interestingly Hattons are saying 'Price is estimated - we will notify you if price rises and offer option to cancel'

 

[Oldddudders]

 

I wonder if speculation on the carriages to run behind the loco is within the spirit of the thread?

As I suggested earlier, Peter, I honestly think the Hornby Maunsells fit the bill perfectly. By 1928 8-sets 469 and 470 were working prestige trains between London and the West Coast (west of Brighton, that is!), and Hornby has offered olive livery vehicles with all the right numbers for the former, most of the latter. Malachite and crimson/cream Maunsells are equally plausible for later eras. When the loco appears in umber, then calls for the 1907 City Limited set might be appropriate, or Panter's Newhaven Boat stock, but I think we might wait a long time!

 

Of course, if Bachmann were to upgrade their Bulleids, that would please many, but the H2s were distinctly elderly by the time Bulleids were numerous.

[10800]

I haven't seen it yet, but the July issue of Southern Way (23) apparently has an item on the Brighton Atlantics.

[coachmann]

The LB&SC bequeathed little of express passenger quality to the newly formed southern Railway. Its Balloon roof coaches for expresses were non-corridor(!) and the company reverted to low arc roof non-corridors afterwards, and so its coaches were distinctly below par and primitive compared with other companies. As has been mentioned already, the Maunsell stock is the most suitable for Southern days although no one has yet produced the earlier Ironclads which the SR continued to build for a time after 1923. What the LB&SC did operate was Pullman coaches, so these would be suitable for running behind the Atlantic in pre-grouping days.

[Sam*45110*SVR]

As promised in my OP further details of the announcement in the shape of the full Bachmann press release is below:

 

The Atlantics were built to haul express trains between London and Brighton including the prestigious Pullman trains before completion of the electrification scheme on 1st January 1933.

 

1_1000.jpg

They were designed by D.E. Marsh, who had been deputy to the Chief Mechanical Engineer of the Great Northern Railway, H.A. Ivatt, for 10 years until he was promoted to the top job at Brighton in January 1905. Such was the urgency for express motive power on the Brighton line that Marsh, with the full support of his former chief, borrowed a set of Doncaster drawings and made a few amendments. The result was five H1 Class locomotives which were built by Kitson’s of Leeds between December 1905 and February 1906.

 

The second batch (Class H2) although to Marsh design was modified by his deputy L. Billinton. Billinton was Acting Chief Mechanical Engineer due to Marsh being absent on extended sick leave. In 1912 Billinton took over permanently when Marsh resigned, holding the position until Grouping in 1923.

 

Six H2 Class locomotives were built at Brighton Works and remained on front line Brighton express work until the arrival of the King Arthur Class 4-6-0s in 1925. They were named after geographical features on the South Coast. The Atlantics then continued to operate other express trains and also boat trains to the ferries at Newhaven (for Dieppe, France) until the outbreak of World War 2 in 1939 brought the duties to a premature end.

 

The class continued to work secondary services after the war but there was less work for them and some were put into store. The first H2 Class withdrawal was No. 32423 ‘The Needles’ which took place in May 1949. The last to survive was No. 32424 ‘Beachy Head’ which was scrapped at Eastleigh following withdrawal on 24th April 1958.

 

2.jpg

Sadly railway preservation was still in its infancy and ‘Beachy Head’ was scrapped before the formation of the Bluebell Railway in March 1959. This locomotive had worked part of the Locomotive Club of Great Britain Southern Counties Limited Rail tour on 24th February 1957 from Horsted Keynes to Brighton.

 

In 2000, the Bluebell Railway Atlantic Group was formed to build a replica of ‘Beachy Head’ for use on the extended Bluebell Railway between Sheffield Park and East Grinstead. Since then the group has acquired many parts including a GNR ‘Atlantic’ boiler, tender frames and wheel sets. Other items are being manufactured and the project has now reached an advanced stage.

 

The Bachmann Branchline OO scale model will be released in 2015. Two versions are planned initially which are;

 

31-920    H2 Class Atlantic 4-4-2 No. 2426 ‘St. Alban’s Head’ in Southern Railway olive green livery

 

31-921    H2 Class Atlantic 4-4-2 No. 32424 ‘Beachy Head’ in BR black livery with early emblem.

 

Models will incorporate a DCC socket. Prices will be advised in due course.

 

David Haarhaus, Bachmann’s European Sales & Marketing Manager said “We believe that the H2 Class locomotive will be popular with modellers and the emergence of the replica at Sheffield Park over the coming years will introduce the class to new generations of railway enthusiasts and modellers. We are working closely with the Bluebell Railway Atlantic Group and thank them for assisting us with this project”.

 

(in case the photo doesn't show here it is) 

 

 

 

I've been looking at the "How realistic are your models" thread too much, I glanced at the first image and thought it was a brilliant model of a H2 sat on a layout and started looking for the giveaways, I thought there wasn't enough clutter behind the engine and the track looked like it was just one colour !

 

Anyway, an interesting announcement with a lot of potential. I wonder why they decided to announce a model due in 2015 now in summer 2013 rather than March 2014 with everything else ?

 

Sam

[micklner]

Perhaps it was done as the announcement was at the Blubell railway where the replica is being built, perhaps they hope the replica will be running at the same time as the model arrives.   or they have heard a rumour that Hornby intended to do one and jumped on it first. Either way its a bit early to start announcing 2015 models perhaps Hornby will be annoucing 2020 items soon too

[Oldddudders]

perhaps Hornby will be annoucing 2020 items soon too

Some people are suggesting they already have!

[ed 66 plant]

Very good news indeed to hear that we will shortly have an Atlantic rtr loco.This will just add to the variety.

I am particularly interested because it will provide the motive power for my Brighton--Bournemouth rake--era 1954-58.

With the latter point in mind does anyone know the formation of such a typical rake.

I have pics. of 32425 pulling the above at Bournemouth and thro. Boscombe in 1954/5 with a Maunsell set in tow(243) + others.

This I understand was normally a 5 car rake--does anyone know which other carriages were added and most importantly--was there a kitchen/buffet car involved?

Thanks in advance for any responses.

[Mark Dickerson]

Yes, very nice. Now, if we're having non-mundane announcements - especially not industrials  - could we have something other than repaints for the 150th anniversary of the London Underground, please? Say, Sarah Siddons, roughly twice the class size as the H2, main use roughly twice as long, livery changes, international media coverage this year, active this weekend. D&E progenitor (class exhibited at the British Empire Exhibition), did railtours on the Southern Region, prototypically DCC-advantageous use (top-and-tail railtours and swapping to steam at Rickmansworth). Cures warts [1].

 

Oh, I'm sorry, that main line Doesn't Count. Do carry on.

 

[1] Perhaps not.

[Legend]

Thanks for the info on pricing guys. I'm a bit miffed at Hattons if Bachmann haven't issued a price they should state so, instead of purporting to offer this at £86 which is now clearly just their guess. It should state pay deposit to eventual cost of the loco , instead of pretending to be the price. While they would lower price if it happens, it still seems a bit of a sharp practice to me.

[Andy Hayter]

No deposit to pay. They take nothing from your account until ready for dispatch

[orcadian]

Thanks for the info on pricing guys. I'm a bit miffed at Hattons if Bachmann haven't issued a price they should state so, instead of purporting to offer this at £86 which is now clearly just their guess. It should state pay deposit to eventual cost of the loco , instead of pretending to be the price. While they would lower price if it happens, it still seems a bit of a sharp practice to me.

Hi, Legend!

I've had to disagree with your post on this one.

 

I don't know how much of this thread you have read, but in post #108, Graham 'Muz' clearly states, almost verbatim, what Hattons state on their own site's 'Forthcoming Models' page - that the price is an estimate, and in the event of an increase, those who have pre-ordered will be contacted and offered a cancellation option.  As has been said by others, if the price drops, Hattons will apply the lower price when they charge for pre-orders at the point of dispatch.

 

I find this an extremely fair and open policy, with absolutely no hint of any sharpness in its practice, which is why I'm happy to pre-order wanted items from Hattons! (and others who offer the same policy).

 

Richard

[Legend]

Fair enough Orcadian. I just saw the headline figure of £86 and read no further.........lesson learned!

[Dunsignalling]

I'll be (very pleasantly) surprised if Bachmann manage to bring it in under £100 (at Hatton's prices).

 

If they make the chassis with pivoted rear truck, the very short coupled wheelbase will almost certainly cause severe waddling.

 

This may be one reason r-t-r manufacturers have fought shy of making an Atlantic for so long.

 

Bachmann don't do things the hard way just for the sake of it so I expect to see a rigid set-up like a 4-6-0 with sideplay and (hopefully) springing on the driving axle wheelset to get it round corners.

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

Perhaps it was done as the announcement was at the Blubell railway where the replica is being built, perhaps they hope the replica will be running at the same time as the model arrives. or they have heard a rumour that Hornby intended to do one and jumped on it first. Either way its a bit early to start announcing 2015 models perhaps Hornby will be annoucing 2020 items soon too

2015 is less than 18 months away, which is Bachmann's usual catalogue lead time. They have just made the announcement at a different time than usual.

 

We have already been waiting longer than that for some other items and, without wishing to sound cynical, we probably already know some of the models Hornby will release in 2020!

 

John

 

Edit: Just realised Olddudders beat me to the punchline!!!

Edited September 5, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

Hi, Legend!

I've had to disagree with your post on this one.

 

I don't know how much of this thread you have read, but in post #108, Graham 'Muz' clearly states, almost verbatim, what Hattons state on their own site's 'Forthcoming Models' page - that the price is an estimate, and in the event of an increase, those who have pre-ordered will be contacted and offered a cancellation option.  As has been said by others, if the price drops, Hattons will apply the lower price when they charge for pre-orders at the point of dispatch.

 

I find this an extremely fair and open policy, with absolutely no hint of any sharpness in its practice, which is why I'm happy to pre-order wanted items from Hattons! (and others who offer the same policy).

 

Richard

I still think it's grossly misleading - and perhaps rather obvious why they have done it (which strikes me as 'sharp practice').  It is plainly obvious that the loco is going to cost a lot more that 80 odd quid when you look at Hattons price, let alone the RRP, for the Bachmann 'Dukedog' which is in many respects a far simpler loco to produce than an outside cylinder engine with an extra set of trailing wheels.  Plus the release date is so far off even the brightest crystal ball in the world cannot predict changes in the umpteen factors which affect the UK price of something manufactured in China.

 

Headline numbers are probably far more important than caveats when it comes to selling something.  What grabbed attention was not the offer of a chance to forego your reservation if you didn't like the (inevitable) price increase but the price.  And what also matters when you do know the real price is the urge to hang-on to a reservation you've made by pre-ordering instead of taking your chance getting onto the lists of another retailer.  All in all it's a 'clever' sales ploy - end of story.  And there's already enough information in this thread to get a pretty fair idea of what the loco actually will cost, albeit at =2013 prices, when subjected to Bachmann's 15% initial discount limit (i.e. on release Hattons won't be able to sell them for any less than any other retailer who cares to apply the maximum permitted discount).