Hornby Palethorpes 6-wheel vans.

[BobKing]

Hi. I have just joined this erudite forum and am looking for a solution to a, probably ,very common problem. I have two Hornby R670 Palethorpes 6-wheel vans-one with plastic closed axle-boxes, but missing the sliding centre axle frame and wire, and one with cast metal closed axle-boxes, complete. The wheels provided with these beasts were the awful square-axled plastic ones with deep flanges. I have all-Peco code 100 track, and would like to re-wheel these vans so that they will run on this track. The plastic-underframed one is probably the easiest because the new wheels will just slide in with a little easement. I have tried putting in new   solid metal wheels, but they just drop out. 

  Can anyone help.?

1. anywhere I can get a new plastic sliding centre frame from?

2.Can this van be run as a 4-wheeler?

- I have min 36inch radius curves.

3.anyway I can stop the new wheels from falling out of the cast underframes.?

 

I'd be very grateful for any help. BobKing

[Fat Controller]

Not sure where you'll find one of the assemblies for the centre axle; I don't think this model's been in production for some time. You could try using a fold-up etched w-iron assembly, such as those supplied by MJT (now Dart Castings):-

http://www.dartcastings.co.uk/mjt.php#SuspensionSystems-WagonCompensationUnits

 If you use one of the first type (2290), for which you have to remove a wheel from the axle, for the centre axle, you might have enough play to allow the wheels to negotiate curves (your radii seem a lot more generous than the one the wagon was intended for anyway). Put an insulating washer behind each wheel.

If you use the second type (2298) for the wagon with the cast axleguards, then you'll need to remove the cast axle-guards, then re-fix them to the outside of the new W-iron. The new w-iron should give you the correct spacing for the more modern axles; you will have to use brass 'pinpoint' bearings.

One trick that's been used for three-axle wagons in the past is to have either a smaller-diameter wheel on the centre-axle, or to file away the flange on the bit where it would be behind the rail, and fix the axle so that it doesn't rotate- effectively, it means the centre axle's only decorative in this case.

Good luck with whichever option you try.

[BobKing]

Many thanks for that, Brian. I was about to throw them in the bin! I've already thrown out the old wheels.

[jcm@gwr]

Hi Bob,

 

There is a better, more involved (more costly) option.

You can get etched brass replacement chassis for 6

wheeled stock.*

Clemlinson, McCormick, etc., if you can solder, then

these are easy to do.

 

The only downside is, that once done, you will not be

satisfied with the running qualities of the rest of your

stock!

 

Good luck, Jeff

 

* most of these are adjustable for different length stock.

[brossard]

I have several of these Cleminson underframes from Brassmasters - had 'em for years on my "get round to it sometime" shelf.

 

John 

[jcm@gwr]

I have several of these Cleminson underframes from Brassmasters - had 'em for years on my "get round to it sometime" shelf.

 

John 

 

It's worth it! I have done a couple of the Palethorpe vans with the McCormick,

I also did one for a cut down clerestory, full brake (Hornby),  I now use it as a

spirit level, it rolls so well!

Jeff

[brossard]

I'm sure it is Jeff, I've got the red and brown Palethorpes vans (which, consistent with Hornby's track record, are not precisely accurate) along with 3 Slaters 6 wheel Clayton coaches.  I am a bit overwhelmed by the list of things I need to do - locos, track etc. for EM.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

John

[jcm@gwr]

Hi John,

 

I was always under the impression that the maroon

vans were pretty spot on for the LMS version, but

I'm prepared to be corrected.

Not sure about the brown one though

 

Cheers, Jeff

[PGC]

If you want to know about the Brassmasters Cleminson chassis, have a look at my blog - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/956/entry-7798-there-came-a-6w-pbv-with-some-detail/

 

If you're not scared of etched kits, this is an easy set of bits to put together and a smooth running chassis that goes round bends is the result.

 

Hope that helps

 

Phil

 

Ps - Message for BobKing - if you don't want the Palethorpes vans, let me know.

[brossard]

Hi John,

 

I was always under the impression that the maroon

vans were pretty spot on for the LMS version, but

I'm prepared to be corrected.

Not sure about the brown one though

 

Cheers, Jeff

 

I think I was remembering comments about the chassis - I don't think anyone will disagree that is pretty appalling.  Jenkinson & Essery only have a picture of the 4 wheeler in their LMS Coaches.  The brown one is GWR (or supposed to be).  Tim Shackleton did a pretty informative article in MRJ 89 "Bangers from the Black Country" where he discusses building a bogie version.  Tim mentions that the Hornby model has "nice bodywork".  

 

While rummaging I found a brand new, in the box, Hornby LMS 6 wheeled Milk van that I had forgotten about.

 

Checking further, there are a couple of pictures of the 6 wheeler in Peter Tatlow's Historic Passenger Coaches, Vol 3, NPCS.  Also a picture of the GWR van as well.  There's not a lot of text but I'm getting that in the LMS period the van would read "ROYAL CAMBRIDGE" which was changed later to "PORK SAUSAGES".   There's also a line drawing of the van and the model does seem to match that above the solebars.

 

John

[jcm@gwr]

 

Phil

 

Ps - Message for BobKing - if you don't want the Palethorpes vans, let me know.

 

Hey, I was thinking that!

Seriously though, I have a number of the maroon ones, but

I'm really after a couple of the brown ones.

 

PM me if you want to discuss this.

 

Cheers, Jeff

[Coach bogie]

I sold on my Hornby's and went for the W&T kit - all glue construction with preprinted litho sides. The Hornby version has too course door detail for my liking. From prototype images, the sides are totally flat with only the hinges and handles giving a clue as to where the doors are.

 

I improved on the flat sides supplied with hinge etches and door mechs from wire. I ignored the rigid six wheel construction and used comet W irons and brass tube/springy wire for the floating middle axle. Runs fine. Accuracy wise it matched the plans I have from an old Modeller as does the LMS version I built for a mate. They crop up all the time second hand. I have two others to make. There were only ever two on the Western but luckily, one of the kits (£10 off eBay) came with both LMS and GWR sides so my mate may get his wish for a second one fulfilled.

 

The ex Colin Ashby stand at shows has been selling the litho sides and parts in the past.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Class O]

I sold on my Hornby's and went for the W&T kit - all glue construction with preprinted litho sides. The Hornby version has too course door detail for my liking. From prototype images, the sides are totally flat with only the hinges and handles giving a clue as to where the doors are.

 

I improved on the flat sides supplied with hinge etches and door mechs from wire. I ignored the rigid six wheel construction and used comet W irons and brass tube/springy wire for the floating middle axle. Runs fine. Accuracy wise it matched the plans I have from an old Modeller as does the LMS version I built for a mate. They crop up all the time second hand. I have two others to make. There were only ever two on the Western but luckily, one of the kits (£10 off eBay) came with both LMS and GWR sides so my mate may get his wish for a second one fulfilled.

 

The ex Colin Ashby stand at shows has been selling the litho sides and parts in the past.

 

Mike Wiltshire

A lovely job , I believe the sausages were "speckled" to give then a more realistic appearance......

[BobKing]

Sorry about the late reply,--I did answer, but the post seems to have got lost.

 

I'm not too hot!!on soldering, but I'll give the Brassmasters Cleminsons a go, if they are reasonably easy to do.  Anyone got any suggestions as to wheels? I'm assuming that I need 14mm dia. solid coach wheels.

[brossard]

Yes, Bob, that would be right.  Both Hornby and Bachmann do packs of decent wheels.  If you want to spend a bit more, Gibson or Markits (or even Ultrascale - if you can wait 6 - 8 weeks) are very good.

 

John

[john flann]

I had one of these six wheelers and got terrible running. All I did was to remove the middle axle and wheels and run it as four wheeler and that it did very well.

 

The absence of the central pair was not really noticeable, but, of course, my solution is not for the purist.

[brossard]

I don't think 6 wheelers have been done very well by the manufacturers.  The other model that springs to my mind is the Dapol Stove R.  I had to make significant mods to mine and a friends' to get reasonable performance.

 

There was a four wheeled version, only a couple of examples, but just one set of doors.

 

Of course you could take the road that Chivers took with the LMS 6 wheeled fish.  The center wheels were plastic, glued to the W irons and had a flat on the bottom - not for the purist either.  A perfectly sound approach if you want the less experienced buyers of your kit to produce a model that actually runs.

 

John

[SHMD]

Hi Bob and welcome,

 

The 6 wheeled centre swivelling axle chassis has always been easy to "trip up" on a model railway.

 

Has anyone tried a free running flangeless centre axle, (like a 9F), on this van?

 

 

Kev.

[BobKing]

Hi.

 

    I eventually solved my problem. In the end, I didn't bother with a swivelling centre chassis.  I hacked an old Insulfish van, and sawed the axle boxes and springs to fit in the gap under the Palethorpe's van. I then shoe-horned in a pinpoint axle with 14mm wheels, and glued the assembly under it to make a 6-wheeler. Now I have two 6-wheel vans which run very well round my layout, which has min 36" curves. They also run through all the Peco Code 75 pointwork very well.

 

                      Thanks for all the advice, Bob King.

[halsey]

Hi there,

I've just come across this post as I'm having poor running issues with my Palethorpes "pork sausages" maroon van, and put this issue into google - I am a complete newcomer as you will see from my own posts - what happens if the coupling connecting bars are removed - my wagon is also very unused/dry so will lubrication help - I am only just finding out the degree to which people modify and play with the actual items (and this is fine) so is the best solution to change the axles? If yes to what? PECO 100 being used with insulfrog turnouts.

[halsey]

problem solved, for me at least, by fitting new Hornby all metal wheels R8234