RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted December 6, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2013 The lower edge of the side windows on the real thing are slightly lower than the lower edge of the door drop lights. On the Warley sample all are at the same depth meaning the windows appear shallow. I suspect they are rather than the door lights being too deep. The livery application is also clearly incorrect as shown by photographic evidence already presented. Bachmann's response so far has been to refute this and that is at their commercial peril. Over-moulded details such as window frames are not unique to this model either. We have the ongoing debate about Bachmann Mk1 roof ribs for example. I welcome the advent of a new class 101 model despite being reasonably satisfied with my Hornby one however if they want it to sell in the sort of numbers the real thing was built in it needs to look right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 With acknowledgements to both Robert and Andrew. Compare the differences. Note model's ride height and the apparent width of the panel between the mainlight windows. If, on the model, the mainlights were made deeper, (or even bigger, all round ?*), then this would look to be more correct, imo. *P.S. Edit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 The Hornby ex Lima body always looked good with a little front end tweaking and weathering . New Bachmann will have much better underframes and motor. Oh no, I can feel yet another hybrid coming on! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 Bachmann's response so far has been to refute this and that is at their commercial peril. That's why I thought I'd concentrate on pointing out the livery application error; changing the tooling may be costly at this point vs. what sales they think they'll get, but I don't see why changing the livery would be an issue. Interestingly, looking at the blue/grey N gauge one, the grey around the windows is at different heights on each driving coach! See pictures 5 and 6 here: http://www.ehattons.com/32924/Graham_Farish_371_511_Class_101_3_car_DMU_in_BR_blue_grey/StockDetail.aspx Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 6, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 6, 2013 That's why I thought I'd concentrate on pointing out the livery application error; changing the tooling may be costly at this point vs. what sales they think they'll get, but I don't see why changing the livery would be an issue. Interestingly, looking at the blue/grey N gauge one, the grey around the windows is at different heights on each driving coach! See pictures 5 and 6 here: http://www.ehattons.com/32924/Graham_Farish_371_511_Class_101_3_car_DMU_in_BR_blue_grey/StockDetail.aspx Hmm... It looks to me from those photos that the passenger saloon windows are at different heights on these two cars as well as the difference in grey band you highlighted. In a way, the position and/or depth of the driver's cab door is a bit of a red herring on the OO Blue/Grey model, in that livery-wise the door is all blue. The real issue seems to me to be that the top and bottom of the passenger saloon and front cab windows should be the same, as clearly evidenced by the black and white photo posted by robertcwp of the real thing in green. On the Blue/grey model, the top of the passenger saloon windows are clearly too high. Perhaps they are too shallow as well, but that's not so clear. The plain blue liveried model looks just a bit better in that respect, and is perfectly possible as the two versions appear to be different tooling considering the mould/seam lines appear to be in different places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 At a RRP of a £129.95 (but obviously most places will charge less) we should expect a top notch product. With prices like this we are talking of serious modellers paying serious money. No longer the toy/model compromise of years ago. So no excuse for all these errors nowadays, with digital scanning and the like. The 101 was the longest lived 1st generation DMU, and more numerous than any other class. It ran on every BR region (including Southern divisions of NSE) The model has fantastic selling potential if Bachmann get it exactly right. We've been waiting years for this item so would rather wait a while longer for them to sort the tooling out. It surely would be in their interest to do so. I know I'm preaching to the converted lads - sorry!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted December 6, 2013 Share Posted December 6, 2013 I think the windows are the correct depth but are mounted too high on the bodyside, the frame should also be painted silver not body colour. The bottom of the drivers window is slightly higher than the bottom of the glass in the saloon windows, Bachmann have it so that the drivers window is about level with the bottom of the saloon window frame. Because of this the blue/grey one just looks wrong with too much grey below the window and not nough grey above it. Not exactly difficult to get right at the preproduction stage, much more difficult now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 So, will this be a vast improvement on the Hornby (ex Lima) model I recently acquired very cheaply in green 3 car format to accompany another earlier purchase to make a 2-car unit and 4-car unit? Regards, Don't think so, the Limby body looks better they run very smoothly and for the price you can get them for with a bit of detailing they scrub up well. Bachmann have got the windows wrong the moulding to represent the window seal is much to large and the relationship with the door droplights is wrong. Not good picture of the Limby but shows how it should be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 Thanks for posting these excellent comparison illustrations. Without question they prove the doubts that have been raised. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-gog Posted December 7, 2013 Share Posted December 7, 2013 To refresh memories of how good the Limby 101 can look with a little work: http://www.emgauge70s.co.uk/project_class101.html RWJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted December 8, 2013 Share Posted December 8, 2013 Livery samples for the two green ones. As it should do, the lining runs along the top of both passenger and cab windows, as per discussion above. Difficult to tell how accurate it is though from the pictures. http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=149&vis=2 http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/32-285.jpg&cat_no=32-285&info=0&width=650&height=182 http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/image_box.php?image=images1/branchline/32-286.jpg&cat_no=32-286&info=0&width=650&height=180 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 9, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 9, 2013 Interesting, because these issues become immediately obvious when the model is painted, yet under Bachmann's (and no doubt others too) development process the tooling seems to be signed off before the livery design stage so it is often too late to correct more serious errors such as this without considerable extra cost and delay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waverley47708 Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Was sort of pleased to see the announcement of a Bachmann 101. I say sort of as I have 5 Lima and Hornby ones. Anyway for the moment I will be sticking with them for two main reasons, the majority I remember up here Waverley / Fife were three car versions and for the period I model the first class sections were done away with - giving the likes of me an unforgettable drivers eye view of the Forth Bridge. Changing the red buffer beam is easy, making a professional job of removing yellow stripes and first class signs on Windows has the potential for me to go badly wrong. As with many Lima models, redoing the yellow fronts makes a big difference. The Hornby versions I had with excellent motors were in my opinion too orange, the Lima to plasticey. Had the fronts redone and they look much better and all the same shade of yellow. They were also one of the first models I remember coming out flush glazed which makes a big difference. That said the new Bachmann version looks good and am sure will run well. If three car Bachmann ones come along in the future without the first class sections I may need to get a few. Still hoping for a 3 car blue 104 to go with my 101s and 107s not layout based round Waverley in 1985/6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'd like to see a 4th car, a buffet, added, although I think that's highly unlikely because even the green 101s didn't run as 4-car units for too long. Could always convert a straight centre car if your modelling skills are up to it. Mal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted December 10, 2013 Share Posted December 10, 2013 All 101s now showing as a June/July delivery: http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/prod1.php?prod_selected=branchline&prod=4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 10, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 10, 2013 Hopefully they will pick up on. The comments on here. To proceed with the window arrangement wrong would be a monumental error given the availability of the Limby model which does not display these errors. Come on Bachmann you usually do better than this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 I'm back home now so I can do a better picture of the Limby version and just how well the Lima toolmakers did the windows. I never really took a good look at the model before, it's only something that strays into SR territory occasionally, I'm even more impressed, shame Hornby didn't fit NEM pockets when they revamped it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigAndy Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 The vast majority of Lima bodyshells were absolutely spot on and more than stand up to today's standards. It was only ever the drives that let them badly down, as per Hornby ringfields of the same time as well. Most HO and American modellers were receiving central motors, all wheel drive and flywheels at the time, whereas it was decreed that the British modeller would not pay the price for a quality drive back in the mid 80's to early 90's. Dynadrive remembered by anyone? If you could put one of these in a Lima body and superdetail that Lima body, then you really would have a superb model. It was always my intention to use the Lima 101 body for the basis of my own 101 fleet, but I will be scratchbuilding the chassis, using blackbeetles. From what I can see here, and I'm far from being any authority on 101's, Bachmann have a potential banana skin on their hands unless they alter those window mouldings......... I have a feeling though that at this late stage, we're going to get them as they are. Shame really. cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 11, 2013 Share Posted December 11, 2013 Interesting. I was told March by the Bachmann rep at the NEC. I wonder if the further delay is due to modification of the mouldings? Let's hope so!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 12, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 12, 2013 Sorry to ask again, but does anyone have an opinion about the earlier version of the Bachmann 101 without the full length rain strip, i.e. the green and plain blue versions. The tooling seems to be different looking at the positions of the mould lines. To me the position of the windows on these earlier versions looks better than the blue/grey version with rain strip, but what do others think? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigherb Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Sorry to ask again, but does anyone have an opinion about the earlier version of the Bachmann 101 without the full length rain strip, i.e. the green and plain blue versions. The tooling seems to be different looking at the positions of the mould lines. To me the position of the windows on these earlier versions looks better than the blue/grey version with rain strip, but what do others think? Looks like the windows are still wrong, not so easy to tell from a three quarter view. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cravensdmufan Posted December 12, 2013 Share Posted December 12, 2013 Andrew, I think the all-blue one is wrong as well - the door windows again look too low. But it is not quite so noticeable as the plain livery tends to disguise it. Only when a lined livery is applied does it become all too apparent.. Therefore the blue/grey and lined green units will look very bad unless the moulding is put right. I have been told that Bachmann are indeed aware of comments on this Forum, so hopefully all will eventually be OK. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted December 12, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 12, 2013 At a RRP of a £129.95 (but obviously most places will charge less) we should expect a top notch product. With prices like this we are talking of serious modellers paying serious money. No longer the toy/model compromise of years ago. So no excuse for all these errors nowadays, with digital scanning and the like. Hi there, Lilliput single unit railcars in HO (aimed at Swiss/German/Austrian markets) have an RRP starting at £196 for a non sound fitted unit. They are made by the same company, probably in the same factory. So I'd say that £129 for a two car unit you're paying low to mid-range prices, and can expect a model commensurate with that. Having said that, I'm not that conversant with the OO market but I can say that the British N market seems much more price conscious than the continental one. Cheers Ben A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 13, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2013 So I'd say that £129 for a two car unit you're paying low to mid-range prices, and can expect a model commensurate with that. Maybe, but as others have said, but in terms of the errors being discussed, it's as easy to get the model right as it is to get it wrong. Someone doesn't seem to have been watching development very carefully, if it's now too late to correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted December 13, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 13, 2013 There are a lot of things that can go wrong in the development of a new model. Quite frankly half the time I think that the modelling fraternity is far too critical and picks upon things that are not really that noticable. But to me this windows depth issue and particularly the relationship of the door windows to the main windows is fundamental. As I have said before it would be a monumental mistake for Bachmann, whose main customer is the discerning modeller, and who will notice these issues, to go ahead now. Better to resolve this issue prior to production or they run the risk of producing an inferior model to the existing Limby version. People just won't buy it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.