Talyllyn Railway - a few pictures.

[45669]

Morning All,

 

Whilst in Wales in October, I paid a visit to the Talyllyn.  Some pictures are now on Flickr and if anyone would like to havea look, this is the first one :

 

RD8705.  DOUGLAS at Tywyn Wharf Station. by Ron Fisher, on Flickr

 

Clicking on it will take you to the others.

 

Hope that they are of interest.

[Oldddudders]

Well up to your usual standard, Ron, thankyou.

 

While the present obsession with weathering may be realistic - I use to run carriage cleaning depots, so know a bit about dirty trains - a beautifully-prepared loco like red Douglas is simply gorgeous.

[mike morley]

Prompted by 45669's posting, here are my belated offerings, taken in late August.

 

.
Merseysider and the Corris guards van at Abergynolwyn.  I've always felt that the Corris guards van was exceptionally modelogenic, but it wasn't until I saw Peter Kazer's superlative layout at Warley that I realised it originally had a ducket that made it even more interesting.

[mike morley]

Corris Number 4 from the top of the Alltwyllt incline.

 

I know that painting the Talyllyn locos in "non-standard" colour schemes has long been controversial and for many years I sided with the purists.  Then, a couple of years ago, I saw Tal-y-Llyn in BR lined black and it suited her so well my resolve began to waver.

Let's face it, Kerr Stuart Tattoo's aren't the prettiest engines on the planet but this was my first sight of Number 4 in Southern lined green and I felt immediately that no other colour scheme was ever likely make her look that good.

[talyllyn1]

Southern lined green? That's TR Standard Loco Green!  Nice photo though.

Cheers

Dave

[Graham456]

Talyllyn green, Deep bronze green or British army No 2 green

Quote

(I know that painting the Talyllyn locos in "non-standard" colour schemes has long been controversial and for many years I sided with the purists.  Then, a couple of years ago, I saw Tal-y-Llyn in BR lined black and it suited her so well my resolve began to waver.)

 

Can you please explain why the painting of the locos is controversial , since the mid sixties until his retirement two years ago,one of the employees in the works, was and is a land rover enthusiast , so the colour used for nearly the last forty years has been Land Rover paint , not some historical colour of old , if the talyllyn haven't worried to much about the shade of green used why do modellers get in so much of a sweat

[mike morley]

It wasn't a modeller who told me it was controversial.  It was a Talyllyn member over a leisurely cuppa in (of all places) the tea room at Llanfair Caereinion .

She told me that the original proposal to paint the locos in "non-classic" colour schemes had been the cause of much heated and acromonious debate at the time and that whenever a loco was due for a re-paint there was equally heated and acrimonious debate about what colour it should be painted. 

 

Interesting to hear about the source of the green.  It might not be "true" Southern green, but in nature and style it is closer to it than anything with classic Talyllyn origins.

[Andy Kirkham]

Can you please explain why the painting of the locos is controversial , since the mid sixties until his retirement two years ago,one of the employees in the works, was and is a land rover enthusiast , so the colour used for nearly the last forty years has been Land Rover paint , not some historical colour of old , if the talyllyn haven't worried to much about the shade of green used why do modellers get in so much of a sweat

I haven't been in on any of these discussions so I don't know specifically what has upset people. However I wonder if the main issue is not which particular liveries are applied, nor which exact shades of paint are used, but whether the locomotive fleet should wear a uniform livery or be painted individual colours. A uniform livery might be seen to be the mark of a "proper" railway while individual colours represent an acknowledgement that the line exists for the amusement of tourists.

 

I'm not sure,however that the same shade had been used since the mid sixties. I certainly recall that in the the early seventies I was quite perturbed to see that some locos had been painted in a lighter shade of green that I was was used to - perhaps tending towards the insipid shade later used by the National Bus Company.There was quite widespread disapproval among the membership and the dignified darker green was reinstated. I think I remember an explanation in Talyllyn News to the effect that the railway had been using surplus locomotive green paint acquired from BR but that the supply had dried up and no exact match could be found among commercial paints. Perhaps this was when Land Rover green began to be used.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Andy Kirkham

[John_Hughes]

Apparently the discussion about the 'correct' scheme for locomotives goes back to the very first days of the railway under preservation, when one of the members kindly provided a set of brass nameplates - previously the names had simply been signwritten on, and Dolgoch had been named Pretoria during the Boer War. Tom Rolt justified the change on the grounds of reducing future costs.

 

So not exactly a new debate, since it's been going on for the last 60 years!

[talyllyn1]

The TR most definitely has not used the same green livery since the mid-60's. I well remember a heated debate at a TRPS AGM (1965, I think) when No 4 Edward Thomas was turned out in a distinctly lighter shade of green than previously.  No's 1 and 2 had been restored in a darker shade that some of the leading lights (including Tom Rolt) called "GWR Green" and this was considered by some to be more suitable.

The TR's Chief Engineer John Bate has recorded in his "Chronicles" book the hilarious result when  he passed around various shade cards for consideration at a TR Council meeting to try and get a decision on the "correct" shade. He was delighted with the unanimous selection as "this will save us having to repaint No 4 - it's the one we've used!"

The rebuilt No 3 Sir Haydn was subsequently given this livery in 1969, as can be seen in this TR postcard. The difference to No 6 Douglas is obvious, and although the two Corris locos appear to be in a shade close to LNER Doncaster Green, this is probably down to the limitations of colour printing at the time. It was very much lighter than the previous livery though.

 

PENDRE 1969 by talyllyn1, on Flickr

 

The "new" shade still caused unhappiness with some members however, and eventually a darker shade was used.  The 1968 TR Handbook states "The green was formerly Brunswick. Now conforms to BS 2660.6/074". The latter would be the lighter shade carried by No's 3 & 4. The 1973 edition records "Dark Brunswick Green in future (at present 3,4 and 6 in 6-074)". The "Dark Brunswick Green" became the standard, often referred to as Deep Bronze Green and also (apparently) "Landrover Green" or even "British Army No2 Green"!

 

As to the more varied liveries applied since, I'll confess I'm an old TR traditionalist who would prefer them all in the TR lined green, while acknowledging that the livery has no historical relevance other than that it was introduced by the TRPS soon after acquiring the railway. That said, I do like the lined Crimson Lake livery now carried by No 2 Dolgoch. It is the best interpretation possible of a livery carried by the loco on the early 1900's, although the exact shade can obviously never be  determined!

According to unverifiable folk lore, at some point in the past No 1 Talyllyn was nicknamed the "Black Tankie", which gave an excuse for the present lined black - a livery I hated at first, but it's grown on me. I just wish it had Cambrian-style red lining rather than what can be taken for BR mixed-traffic livery.

As to the "Thomas" masquerades - well, it enchants the children and brings in the money. so we mustn't get too serious. It's only a coat of paint, after all. 

Cheers

Dave

Edited December 22, 2013 by talyllyn1

[mike morley]

Dave

 

Love that picture!  It certainly highlights the differences between the distinctly Southern green and the Land Rover green!

 

As something of an aside, the conversation in the Llanfair Caereinion tearoom that sparked this discussion came about when Chevallier first came to the W&L a couple of years ago. IIRC, Chevy had been out on the Saturday but hadn't fared to well (Overheated axlebox?) and had spent most of the Sunday in the workshops being attended to.  Everyone had assumed we had seen the last of it for the weekend when, just as we were all about to give up and go home, she was hauled out of the shed, steaming quietly, with the promise that a final run would be made that evening.

While we all watching and waiting I was stood behind a fellow enthusiast and someone who was evidently a senior member of the W&L hierarchy, so was able to overhear this exchange. 

"Why did you paint it GWR green?"

"It was the only colour we had enough of."

The similarities to the Talyllyn's Land-Rover green story are obvious and I wonder if a similar debate about Chevy's livery will result some time in the future!

[Graham456]

Well at least I understand the controversial part of your statement better now having only known the "ting a ling" since the early eighty's myself, I can't comment on pre that, have seen the light green in pics before Mike would have been young in the sixties to dictate the colour used and I think the land rover green came about more by it being there rather than policy.

I just find it funny how picky people are over paint shades when one in five men have some degree of colour blindness and apparently the colour we see yellows as are eyes ages according experts none of which helps us modellers

[talyllyn1]

The shade finally settled upon for TR Standard Loco Green in the early 70's was indeed to the same specification as Land Rover Deep Bronze Green, as confirmed by John Bate (again, in his book  "The Chronicles of Pendre Sidings"). This was the closest available standard paint match to the livery applied at Gibbons Bros Brierley Hill when they rebuilt No's 1 and 2 in 1958 and 1963 respectively.

It seems that nobody recorded the paint specification used by Gibbons, or who supplied it. It's possible that Gibbons had it "in stock". They overhauled quite a few traction engines and road rollers around that time. Hon. Treasurer Pat Garland ( a keen GWR enthusiast) had friendly contacts at Swindon, so it could have been "acquired" from there!

 

Now, just do a web search for "Land Rover Deep Bronze Green" and discover how much Land Rover enthusiasts agonise over the correct shade! 

 

Cheers

Dave

Edited December 16, 2013 by talyllyn1

[talyllyn1]

This 1963 photo (courtesy of the Narrow Gauge Museum, Tywyn) shows No 2 on its first steam trial after delivery from Gibbons Brothers.

 

No 2 Dolgoch - 1963 by talyllyn1, on Flickr

 

I remember seeing the loco just a few weeks later - the quality of finish on an effectively brand-new locomotive was absolutely stunning. It was this shade of green (also on No 1 at the time) that the TR hierarchy wanted on the rest of the fleet, and which proved so difficult to match.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Ohmisterporter]

We need a "superb" button.

[mike morley]

Then, at the other extreme, is the shade of green Dolgoch was wearing in 2008!

[steves17]

I'm sure there is a thread on this but I can't seem to find it so here goes. Can anyone tell me about the original livery that the TR engines are believed to have carried? 

 

http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2015/talyllyn-surprise-for-tr150/

 

I am aware that the Indian red type livery that they were recently painted in was based on Fletcher & Jennings standard ex-works and that the order for Talyllyn erroneously dropped an 'L' but is there any actual evidence the two locos were painted that colour upon delivery? I do not believe documentation has ever been found and given the extensive rebuilds they have had over the years would be surprised if an 'original' layer had been found underneath the previous coats. 

Is the anniversary livery just a tribute to Lowca or is there actual evidence to state that the older green livery they carried was indeed a later decision.

 

Bit of a long shot this I know but I'm wondering if any TR experts might have the final word.

 

Regards 

Steve

Edited May 8, 2017 by steves17

[Clearwater]

Given there seems to be no other Talyllyn pictures thread, a few from our trip today. An excellent day out, rated "the best ever" by my son. A bit damp but that didn't matter and the weather eventually improved. Flitted happily between stations and a big thank you to the staff who were all most friendly.

 

SVR, by pure coincidence as I told my wife, is exactly half way home so it made absolute sense to break our journey overnight to visit it tomorrow

 

David

 

[2996 Victor]

This 1963 photo (courtesy of the Narrow Gauge Museum, Tywyn) shows No 2 on its first steam trial after delivery from Gibbons Brothers.

 

No 2 Dolgoch - 1963 by talyllyn1, on Flickr

 

I remember seeing the loco just a few weeks later - the quality of finish on an effectively brand-new locomotive was absolutely stunning. It was this shade of green (also on No 1 at the time) that the TR hierarchy wanted on the rest of the fleet, and which proved so difficult to match.

 

Cheers

Dave

 

Can't remember what livery she was carrying in 1988 when I visited the Tal-y-llyn, but I remember being thrilled that Dolgoch was our locomotive!

 

Picture 062.jpgThen, at the other extreme, is the shade of green Dolgoch was wearing in 2008!

 

I'm certain it wasn't "Mushy Pea Green" though! Oh dear, oh dear! Why would you? Sorry if that's a trifle controversial......

[detheridge]

Can't remember what livery she was carrying in 1988 when I visited the Tal-y-llyn, but I remember being thrilled that Dolgoch was our locomotive!

 

 

I'm certain it wasn't "Mushy Pea Green" though! Oh dear, oh dear! Why would you? Sorry if that's a trifle controversial......

 From memory, it's essentially LNER Apple Green, and was the livery applied by Atlas Foundry in Shrewsbury when Dolgoch was 'overhauled' in 1945.

[rockershovel]

What's all this about "proper railway"?

 

The TR hasn't carried enough slate to roof a privy since preservation, nor does it produce any profit from revenue. But it is a complete system, carrying passengers to a timetable under the auspices of the relevant legislation, which surely qualifies?

 

The VoR has depended on tourists for many years; the SMR has never done anything else, and surely THEY are "proper railways"?

[APOLLO]

The Talyllyn railway IS a proper railway as one of its locos carries an ex Britannia chime whistle !! I know - I've heard it !!

 

Locomotive inspectors.

 

 

Brit15

 

[ardbealach]

 A couple of No.4 in a different livery again. Not sure how long this one lasted.

[Corbs]

That's also an interesting set of photos as it looks like it's after the last major rebuild (from the smokebox handrails and extended cab) but the running boards are not fitted.

[Andrew Young]

No 4 ran in that condition with the running boards removed In November 1991for a special to launch the John Scott Morgan book 'Corris- A Narrow Gauge portrait'. The running boards refitted, the loco ran the 1992 season in that livery. Apparently it was a guesstimation of Corris livery mixed up from standard TR carriage red and brown paints!

 

No 2 received the apple green livery in 1990 for Talyllyn 125 and carried it until I think 2008/9 when the loco was repainted crimson lake. It was a recreation of the livery worn when the Railway was preserved in 1951 and as previously said, was applied by the Atlas Foundry during the rebuild carried out in 1945.

 

There are no colour photos showing any TR pre-preservation livery (that have come to light yet anyway) for any livery other than No 2's 1945 paint job. Most of the written evidence suggests that the locos were mostly green and occasionally red before then.

 

Cheers,

Andrew

Edited September 19, 2017 by Andrew Young