Gaugemaster/Seep point motors. Reliability issues?

[RTJ]

The PM1 switch advertising blurb says that they PM1 CAN be used to control frog polarity. The PDF sheet that comes with it makes no mention of it and my local model railway shop (no name), says that the switch is only there to control signals.

 

Has anyone any experience of these motors and switches - please?

 

Also, which power supply is best/most cost effective? Again, I see in the blurb that the 24v M3 at ??45 is mentioned; is there a cheaper alternative that people can recommend (e.g. from Maplins?) I only have a small no of points at present and can't think that I'll ever operate more than 2-3 at the same time. i do have an old H&M duette that, I think, has a 16v AC output. Would this be OK (I know - try it - but I haven't bought the point motors yet!)

 

Thanks again,

 

BW

 

Richard

[Karhedron]

I have no experience of Seep point motors so I am just repeating the info I have from others.

 

I am pretty sure that the PM1s can be used to switch frog polarity. Yes the 16v AC output should be OK for switching them. Standard advice is to add a CDU as well. These are pretty cheap to get and you only need 1 (no matter how many points you have). CDUs provide an extra kick to ensure positive switching, they also cut the current out afterwards to ensure there is no risk of burning out the solenoids.

 

As to how good they are, that is a subjective question. People I have spoken to regard them as comparable in quality to Peco point motors but better value since they incorporate the switch. If quality is your prime concern maybe something like Tortoise would be better. If value for money is your goal then Seep will probably be OK. If ease of connecting to the points is your prime concern then Peco have an edge (provided you are attaching peco motors to peco points).

 

Hope this helps.

[66C]

Hi Richard

 

One of the things to bear in mind about the SEEP motors is that the switch is a metal washer rubbing on the printed circuit board. This means that in time it simply wears out. We used SEEP motors many years ago in club layouts but no longer use them as they are not as robust as Peco and only have one switch. Bear in mind that the single Peco accessory switch for its motors is also a wipe a circuit board type. Many modellers now prefer slow motion motors such as Fulgurex or Tortoise as the movement of the turnout blades is more realistic.

 

Regards

[Kenton]

but I haven't bought the point motors yet!

 

Sounds like the best option to me.

 

Spend your money on something that is better, very reliable, easy to set up, has two change over switches (one for frogs and one for signals if you like), comes with clear instructions ...

 

What's that then?

A Tortoise of course

[Pete Harvey]

I use Seep motors on both Dudley Road and Peters Street, on DR I use stud and probe to work the points and on PS they are fully DCC I have not had any issues at all with the SEEP motors I would say buy the motors with the polarity switch and the Over Centre Spring fitted as this is more reliable than the Peco or Hornby Over Centre Spring.

 

 

They are easy to fit after marking the underside of the base board so that the point is at right angles to the straight stock rail and after having already drilled a 10mm hole for the point wire to locate in the point control arm I just use PVA to fix the point motors its means a good strong fixture and easy to remove with out wrecking the base board.

 

Seep Motors are very good and ideal for the average modeller that's not bothered about the clicking sound that comes with Solenoid Motors.

 

Pete

[RTJ]

Thanks for the answers and comments. I placed the query on 2 forums, so if you don't mind,I'll combine my comments:

 

1. Yes you can place a PL15 under the baseboard without the motor (PL10). It should be a very easy job; you would need to provide the motor pin, BUT (!) I think you'll encounter great difficulties as without the motor the pin will be liable to wobble at lot - and this would only get worse over time as the pin would wear a larger hole in the plastic of the peco point. The pin needs to be kept vertical at all times.

 

Quote:" The more recent design of these allows for alternative fixing methods to other possible usage, but the side of the 4 small clip / nut retaining slots on the PL15 fit by clipping over pL 10 motor, but might be a tight pushfit , so your left with assembled screwheads & contacts showing (for adjustment). Also , no need to glue like PL13 as the PL15 is a tight push fit with the 4 clips locking themselves over both sides of coilwind housing , Put the barrel shaped item on to motor pin lastly, as to adjust & correct activation of the springy brass contacts once all asembled to your track, ( i also am assuming you fix motor dirctly to turnout ?) Also , a personal choice, but i prefer to use female receptable connections & heat sink sleeve rather than soldering, as easier to adjust wiring if needed."

 

I agree: they are a tight fit - but that's good; putting the barel item on the motor pin LAST (Not 'first' as in the instructions) is also a good idea.

 

I think, on balance that I'll fix them with the motor fixed to the point and the switch underneath; it appears more stable, the contacts will be easier to adjust BUT a rectangular hole will need to be cut in the baseboard.

 

 

2. G/master/Seep motors appear, according to my limited correspondence, to be unreliable as far as the polarity switch is concerned 'as it's just a washer rubbing over 2 contacts on a pcb' - and thus liable to wear. Peco seems to be a better option.

 

3. Cost Gaugemaster/Seep is ??3.75 (inc a switch). Peco is ??5.85 for the motor and ??4.25 for the switch (??10.00 in total let's say) - a great deal of difference. Also a CPU is recommended (approx ??10.00). The Tortoise is ??14.00 here in the UK (and doesn't need a cdu - I think). The Fulgarex -rather like the Tortoise I believe, appears not to have such a good reputation, but is cheaper at ??9.50. (All prices UK pounds if the pound symbol isn't rendered on your browsers)

 

4. So - it seems as if I'll go Peco. BTW The Peco switch has 2 quality microswitches on it, one for the frog polarity, one for signals/control board lamps.

 

Thanks, Any more comments?

 

Which power supply would people recommend for the Peco option? A gaugemaster? (if so which one?) of a Maplins -type? (Again, which one?)

 

BW

 

Richard

[Gilbert]

I think you've made a wise choice but shop around - I recently got the Peco motors for less than ??4 and the PL13 switch for about ??2.55 -I've not used the PL15 but I've had my share of intermittent faults and failures with the Seep motors including a batch with insecure rods.

Chris

[Karhedron]

Which power supply would people recommend for the Peco option? A gaugemaster? (if so which one?) of a Maplins -type? (Again, which one?)

If your controller has a 16v AC output (and most do) then this should be fine for Peco point motors. As with the Seeps, I strongly advise adding a CDU.

 

Do you have an existing controller?

[RTJ]

Hi Chris, may I enquire where?

 

Thanks,

 

Richard

 

I think you've made a wise choice but shop around - I recently got the Peco motors for less than ??4 and the PL13 switch for about ??2.55 -I've not used the PL15 but I've had my share of intermittent faults and failures with the Seep motors including a batch with insecure rods.

Chris

[RTJ]

Hi, I am going over to DCC but an old H+M Duette does have a 16v ac output i think - but only rated at one amp.

 

BW

 

Richard

If your controller has a 16v AC output (and most do) then this should be fine for Peco point motors. As with the Seeps, I strongly advise adding a CDU.

 

Do you have an existing controller?

[Karhedron]

4. So - it seems as if I'll go Peco. BTW The Peco switch has 2 quality microswitches on it, one for the frog polarity, one for signals/control board lamps.

Make sure you go for the PL-15 switch. The cheaper PL13 has only a single switch and operates on the same sliding washer approach as Seeps meaning you are likely to encounter the same issues.

 

The other option is to get individual micrswitches (either the Peco PL32 or from Maplins) and attach these to the point motor yourself. Time vs cost as usual.

[Karhedron]

Hi, I am going over to DCC but an old H+M Duette does have a 16v ac output i think - but only rated at one amp.

Should be plenty.

[Gilbert]

I believe it was the "Richards Railways" stand at the Weston show. They are in Yatton http://www.richardsrailways.co.uk/.

There were other suppliers with significantly more expensive PL10s at the show

Chris

[RTJ]

Thanks again to everyone. I thought that you may be interested in this reply from Gaugemaster when asking about the reliability of their combined switch with motor:

 

"The switch on our PM-1 unit was originally designed for switching colour light signals, however over the years many of our customers have put them to many different uses including frog polarity. It's fair to say this is generally in addition to the blade itself so poor contact problems can be six of one and half a dozen of the other. Forums are great fun and sometimes very useful." (sic)

 

BW

 

Richard

[ColinR]

The PM1 switch advertising blurb says that they PM1 CAN be used to control frog polarity. The PDF sheet that comes with it makes no mention of it and my local model railway shop (no name), says that the switch is only there to control signals.

 

Has anyone any experience of these motors and switches - please?

 

Also, which power supply is best/most cost effective? Again, I see in the blurb that the 24v M3 at ??45 is mentioned; is there a cheaper alternative that people can recommend (e.g. from Maplins?) I only have a small no of points at present and can't think that I'll ever operate more than 2-3 at the same time. i do have an old H&M duette that, I think, has a 16v AC output. Would this be OK (I know - try it - but I haven't bought the point motors yet!)

 

Thanks again,

 

BW

 

Richard

 

 

I have recently restarted Modelling after a 40 year absence, so do not take my words as Gospel.

 

 

I have used 103 SEEP PM1 and PM2 Motors in my "N" Scale Layout. The PM2 are driven by Stud & Probe and I originally used a 16VAC (nominal), 1 Amp (I think) Gaugemaster T1 uncased. Found the Peco Finescale, Code 55, Electrofrog Points were intermittent in operation. Switched to an M2 cased Transformer which is a nominal 18VAC (but actually runs at 16.9VAC), 1.5 Amp (I think). No problem after that although I find the SEEPs work better if not screwed up tight to the underneath of the baseboard - not sure why that is. The T1 would probably be fine if used with a CDU but I run with the Gaugemaster DCC Prodigy System and I operate 40% of my Points (all PM1s) via Gaugemaster DCC30 Acessory Modules which cannot be used with a CDU.

 

The DCC30 will operate 2 Points at once via the DCC30 using the M2 so, with a CDU, the M2 or equivalent should be adequate.

 

I found the PM1 microswitch to be very difficult to set up but this may be because the Point "throw" is only approx 2.5 mmm in "N". I wanted to run mimic panel lights and have found it almost impossible to get them reliable. If I could tighten up the SEEPs under the baseboard, it is possible that I could adjust the postion of the Motor to make the lights work but then the Point Operations are "iffy". I think other respondents are correct that Tortoise are probably the "Gold Plated" solution but, with 103, they were more than I wanted to pay.

 

Hope this is of some interest.

[engage]

Hi Richard

If it is any consolation or help to you I have been using a H&M Duette dual controller and SEEP point motors

with a CDU for years & years. To date the only problem that I have encountered with the motors is on two occasions

the coil wire has broken off at the point where it is soldered. As one member pointed out with N scale there can be a

problem due to the limited distance that the point blade needs to move but to overcome this if I want to use the auxiliary

switch I usually mount the motor a short distance from the point and make a right angled crank or straight arm with the

hole off centre this way the full 9mm of travel in the SEEP can be fully utilized, of course it does make more work to do

it like this. You pays yer money and you make yer choice.

Happy Modelling John

[Ron Ron Ron]

3. Cost Gaugemaster/Seep is ??3.75 (inc a switch).

Peco is £5.85 for the motor and £4.25 for the switch (£10.00 in total let's say) - a great deal of difference.

 

Peco prices:-

 

Hattons

 

PL10 = £4.50

PL15 = £6.00

------------------

Total = £10.50

 

 

PL10W = £5.00 (better version of the PL10)

PL15 = £6.00

--------------------

Total = £11.00

 

 

 

The Signal Box

 

PL10 = £4.25

PL15 = £6.50

------------------

Total = £10.75

 

 

PL10W = £5.25

PL15 = £ 6.50

---------------------

Total = £11.75

 

 

Also a CPU is recommended (approx £10.00).

 

The Tortoise is ??14.00 here in the UK (and doesn't need a cdu - I think).

 

Indeed, there is no need for a CDU with any slow motion motor like the Tortoise.

 

The Tortoise can be bought for....

£13.00 - each,

£12.34 - each in 6 packs

£11.50 - each in 12 packs

(example used = Bromsgrove models)

 

If you are buying 12, that's almost the same price as the Peco option .

If buying less than 12, the price premium is almost negligible, but will be wiped out when factoring in a CDU into the Peco price (cost between £10 and £14.00).

 

 

 

4. So - it seems as if I'll go Peco. BTW The Peco switch has 2 quality microswitches on it, one for the frog polarity, one for signals/control board lamps.

 

That is the PL15, costing approx. £6.00 - £6.50; not the cheaper PL13.

 

 

.

[Theakerr]

For a while i was big on SEEP motors in but my current expansion I have replaced my Seep Motors with PECO. Whilst i like the SEEP for the very positive throw, I have now had three fail! On one a wire to the solenoid broke, I was able to fix it in situ. On two the little plastic rivets that hold the motor to the circuit board broke. These had to be replaced.

[kevinlms]

For a while i was big on SEEP motors in but my current expansion I have replaced my Seep Motors with PECO. Whilst i like the SEEP for the very positive throw, I have now had three fail! On one a wire to the solenoid broke, I was able to fix it in situ. On two the little plastic rivets that hold the motor to the circuit board broke. These had to be replaced.

 

You can glue these rivets back in place. Place a washer under the mounting holes, as the problem is caused by the stress of the plastic lugs being forced against the underside of the baseboard. The washer will relieve this pressure by creating a gap.

 

Kevin Martin

[Mike-Greg]

Hi all

 

I use seep motors

I also use them to change the frog ( not had any problems )

mine are screwed in place

i use small counter sung brass screws and leave them a bit lose

( beeing counter sunk heads this make fine adjustment more easy)

leaving the slightly slack also stops any distortion on the PBC boards

and stops any binding if not alined exact

 

so far have had none fail

bought all mine from signal box

if you buy 6 or more at a time they are reduced in price

 

rgds

Mike

[Theakerr]

Thanks Mike and Greg about the washer tip or leaving them a little loose. I had thought the breaking was was due to vibrations associated with the "robustness" of the throw. Bit of a case of "wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then" (courtesy Bob Seeger). As an aside I did repair one of the two with the broken rivets (haven't got round to the 2nd yet) but I had to take them out to do it, which was a bit of a pain.

[blueeighties]

I use the PM1 switch to switch polarity on my frogs, and an additional microswitch for LED control panel indication. So far, no issues at all. Thay can be a bit tricky to set up, but once you have done a few, its very easy.

 

Regards,

 

Lee.

[StuartM]

I have over 40 seep pm1's on my layout and I prefer them to the Peco pm's.

I use a cdu to switch them and I've found them reliable enough

I use the integral switch to change frog polarity

 

The main issue is with setting them up, not only does the pm1 have to change the switch blades of the point, it also has to move the contact on the pcb from one track to the other and this can be a complete pain to set up, especially when working underneath the baseboard.

one piece of advice I can offer is to drill at least 6mm holes for the rod because restricting the movement of the rod effects the pm1's ability to change the integral switch. the oversized holes can be covered over with tape afterwards.

 

I've recently found when using them on the new peco 3way turnout that the switch blades don't have enough travel for the inegral switch to work so I resorted to attaching a separate switch to one of the coils whch was switched by the rod pressing against it.

 

I do wish GM would update seeps so they had screw terminals rather than soldered ones,

slotted screw holes rather than round so the position of the pm could be adjusted slightly

and some sticky pads to attach the pm to the underside of the board before screwing down.

 

They cost £4.75 and take up little underboard space and although a pain to set up are reliable enough

Hope that helps,

Rgds,

StuartM

[Brian]

Hi

I am with the last two replies.

I have used Seep PM1s for years and Peco PL10 with PL13s fitted too. Only ever had one PL13 fail and that's when it got knocked off during transit into an exhibition. PL13s can be opened up, their contacts cleaned, re-tensioned and reassembled easily, should they ever fail.

 

I always advocate the use of a CDU with any solenoid point motor - Only one is normally needed for the whole layout. It not only provides that extra 'Beefy' pulse of power but helps prevent accidental coil burn out too.

 

As for cost, Seep PM1 are currently available for £3.75 when six or more are purchased. So approx 4 for the cost of one slow motion motor! While only one basic change-over contact is supplied (unlike slow mo' motors which normally have two sets of change-over contacts). However if a second set is required these can be simple to add as shown above by Lee using a micro switch or by using a relay worked by the Seeps contact.

 

If I could purchase slow mo' stall motors for around £8 to £9 each then I would without hesitation use them, but I cant justify the their cost when I need to buy 10 plus motors on top of the cost of the points too. So its Seeps for me!

[PhilH]

I used to rigid fit these things and, as others have pointed out, found that they can be a pain to fit. The last ones I fitted i used self adhesive Velcro from ebay, you can move them around till you get the perfect position then the Velcro will hold them in place.