GWR tender options still to be modelled (3500 and 4000 gallon)

[6959]

As it is getting more difficult and expensive to bring out completely new model locomotives, the manufacturers could look at minor tooling updates that could persuade punters to buy another variation of an existing model. The GWR 3500 gallon tender may offer an opportunity for relatively simple 'new' models.

 

About 100 years ago the standard Churchward 3500 gallon tender was a variation of the type used by Armstrong and Dean but had the coal rails sheeted over or replaced. The earliest type of tender chassis which dates back to the Victorian period had a rather frail appearance due to the need to keep the working parts accessible, reduce weight and economise on use of material.

 

Picture 1 shows a white metal model of this type with short fenders, probably K's.

 

The revised 3500 gallon GWR tender with long fenders that is now associated with Churchward and perpetuated by Collett was used on many types of Great Western loco's at various times. Consequently there are many model engines with tenders that are very similar in appearance to the point that the sameness is boring. For many years there were two variations: as used on the early Hornby 2800 class, and a later design used by Bachmann behind Manor and other classes.

 

Picture 2 shows the 19th century type of chassis under an early 3500 gallon tender with long coal fenders.

 

The inherent weakness in the corners near the axle boxes due to stress concentration caused cracks to form. One solution was to reinforce the axle boxes by bolting or riveting a pair of opposite handed brackets to each axle box.

 

Picture 3 shows a Collett 3500 gallon tender with early framing subsequently modified by adding strengthening brackets to the framing at each axle box to absorb the bending stresses set up by the springing.

 

In 1925, ten Castle class engines were built with a 4000 gallon tender with higher sides than the 3500 gallon variety. The new design which was generally describes as 'Intermediate Pattern' had a revised chassis framing to avoid cracking in the corners. The 1925 tender chassis was also used on 3500 gallon tenders during rebuilds. Bachmann has sold models of this type behind Manors and moguls to the point where many modellers now call it a 'Manor tender'. Unfortunately the Intermediate tender in its entirety has not been made in ready to run models but kits are available.

 

Picture 4 shows this 1925 tender framing in 3500 gallon model form as produced by Bachmann.

 

The 1925 chassis shape was a bit fussy and more expensive to flame cut so the chassis design was further strengthened by the simple expedient of changing the angle of the framing around the axle boxes to 45 degrees. New tender frames to this design appeared in about 1936 on Churchward/ Collett pattern 3500 gallon tenders. (The contemporary Collett 3000 gallon and 3500 gallon tenders used the tender chassis similar to the Collett 4000 gallon tenders of which there were two types).

 

Picture 5 shows Churchward/ Collett 3500 gallon tender with 1936 frames and was taken at Didcot many years ago.

 

So, the opportunities for model manufacturers can be summarised as:

3500 gallon Churchward tender with early chassis under superstructure with short coal fenders.

3500 gallon tender with reinforced (bracketed) axle boxes and top with long coal fenders.

4000 gallon 'Intermediate' tender - 10 built new on Castles 4083 - 4092 in 1925 to loco Lot 232 with tender to Lot A112 - and subsequently on other 4-6-0s due to rebuilds and repairs.

3500 gallon tender with long coal fenders on 1936 type tender chassis frames.

Edited December 2, 2013 by 6959

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Thanks for the information presented, which clarifies the variations. I think the 1925 modification is very striking when done properly, unlike the Mainline attempt. Out of interest does anybody know if components are available from any source to build this type?

[Miss Prism]

4000 gallon 'Intermediate' tender - 10 built new on Castles 4083 - 4092 in 1925 to loco Lot 232 with tender to Lot A112 - and subsequently on other 4-6-0s due to rebuilds and repairs.

Here's 4090 Dorchester Castle running with a standard 3500g in 1928:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls904.htm

 

 

[Coach bogie]

There is also a Dean 4,000 gallon tender. Looks similar to intermediate but flush rivetted and minor detail differences.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[twiggy1969]

Oak hill Martin finney dose the brackets and axel boxes very well priced as well

 

Mark

[Miss Prism]

Picture 3 shows a Collett 3500 gallon tender with early framing subsequently modified by adding strengthening brackets to the framing at each axle box to absorb the bending stresses set up by the springing.

pic3_7821_tender#2054_DSCN4354_800.jpg

When you say they were 'subsequently modified', what are these modified from - older Churchward frames? Or what you call the '1925 frames'?

 

In 1925, ten Castle class engines were built with a 4000 gallon tender with higher sides than the 3500 gallon variety. The new design which was generally describes as 'Intermediate Pattern' had a revised chassis framing to avoid cracking in the corners.

Do any pictures of these tenders exist?

[6959]

 

When you say they were 'subsequently modified', what are these modified from - older Churchward frames? Or what you call the '1925 frames'?

 

 

Do any pictures of these tenders exist?

 

 

The bracket modification was to strengthen early Churchward style tender chassis. The 1925 Collett type as modelled by Bachmann made the frames stonger by having extra steel in the corners. In 1936 or thereabouts the strength was improved by increasing the angle of the frame either side of the axle box to about 45 degrees. As shown in OP pictures. It would seem that tenders could change every 18 months to two years so accurately dated photo's are essential yet are hard to find.

[Craigw]

From looking at photographs, there were 3 changes that were implemented on the Churchward 3500 gallon tenders during the 1920s. The first seems to have been introduced with the tenders used on the Castle class and then eventually retrofitted to other tenders (including eventually 2500 and 300 gallon tenders). This was the beefed up springs which are very obvious by having a straight top rather than the more familiar curve of the springs. Whilst shown in a photo of 4073 in grey in August 1923, it seems to have been slower to implement on other tenders. The earliest photo I have seen them on another class is of a Star at Oxford in May 1925 (GWRJ 30)

 

The strengthening bracket is a later modification - the Castle class locos built with 3500 gallon tenders did not have it up to at least the 6/27 entry into service locos (5006 shown in Russell). There is a very good photo of a County 4-4-0 fitted with a modified tender in 1930 (Great Western Scene plate 2).

 

The third modification is the transverse vacuum cylinder. This was not in use on any of the tenders on the Castle class up to 6/27 (5006 as above) and the earliest definite one I can find is the County photo above. They become progressively more common through the 1930s even appearing on some 3000 gallon tenders.

 

Anyone who feels like looking at photographs and trying to become a bit more precise on this please do. I would suspect that GA drawings if they survive would have ammendment details to cover these. All we need are GA and detail drawings!

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Coach bogie]

There were other alterations. The strengthening also included welding in additional section to the main tender frames changing the frame

 

outline

 

The original narrow straight frames now have curved sections to which the new 'beefed up springs and hangers have been attached.

 

It is a complex history that took unitil the mid 1930's before it appeared Swindon had solved the long term strength issue, by using deeper frames with heaviersprings and hangers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[6959]

The picture in post #9 was too dark on my screen to see any detail so I have taken the liberty of making it 35 percent lighter in Photoshop. This tender under frame looks like the 1925 shape. I was not aware that the early Churchward frames were modified in the Collett period by welding in corner pieces and assumed that at least the ones on the 1925 built Castles 4083 to 4092 had new frames.

 

[Coach bogie]

 

P9242869lightened35percent.jpg

This tender under frame looks like the 1925 shape.

 

You are correct it is one of only 10 underframes from lot A112 with the intermediate tank removed and a replacement rivetted standard 3,500 tank and replacement shorter hangers in place of the original long hangers. I have used it to illustrate the repairs carried out. One interesting challenge with the A112 is that, after repairs, five of the intermediate tanks later appeared on other underframes just to mess up frame identification.

 

 

The Lot A112 scalloped style underframe appears to have been stronger than the original designs and with a prior build of 649 Churchward tenders built on 45 lots, something had to be done to prolong their life. There are three actual styles of welded or rivetted supports applied to earlier tender underframes.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[firebirduk]

There is also a Dean 4,000 gallon tender. Looks similar to intermediate but flush rivetted and minor detail differences.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Hi Mike,

 

Quite late in following up, util today I did not realise that Dean/Churchward produced a 4000 gallon tender.

 

Specificallly I am after the number of the 4000g tender attached to 102 La France in 1903.

 

Any help please?

[Karhedron]

4000 gallon 'Intermediate' tender - 10 built new on Castles 4083 - 4092 in 1925 to loco Lot 232 with tender to Lot A112 - and subsequently on other 4-6-0s due to rebuilds and repairs.

I could be wrong but I thought that the lot A112 Intermediate tenders were 3500 gallon capacity.

 

 

In 1925, ten Castle class engines were built with a 4000 gallon tender with higher sides than the 3500 gallon variety. The new design which was generally describes as 'Intermediate Pattern' had a revised chassis framing to avoid cracking in the corners.

Do any pictures of these tenders exist?

 

I believe that one of them ran behind a 2251 and is pictured in the GWR Journal issue (issue 24 or 25 IIRC) on the class. I think it was 3207. That is the only photo I can think of off the top of my head. That is, assuming I am not getting my tender types muddled (bit of a minefield).

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

For a picture of an intermediate pattern tender Try Churchward Locomotives Haresnape and Swain.

Page 91 shows a mogul attached to one, it can be compared with the other photo on the page and clearly shows the additional height. Unfortunately the frames cannot be seen clearly.

[Combe Martin]

There's half a dozen pictures in the various S&D picture books of an 'intermediate' tender attached to 3206 when it was on the Somerset & Dorset in 1962.

[firebirduk]

I could be wrong but I thought that the lot A112 Intermediate tenders were 3500 gallon capacity.

 

I believe that one of them ran behind a 2251 and is pictured in the GWR Journal issue (issue 24 or 25 IIRC) on the class. I think it was 3207. That is the only photo I can think of off the top of my head. That is, assuming I am not getting my tender types muddled (bit of a minefield).

 

> I am trying to find out which tender was paired with La Farance.

 

> RCTS states that 102 was paired with a 4000 gallon tender in 1903 when 

it was taken into stock. I do not think a rebuilt tender could have 

been used since no 4000 gallon tenders were built before 1900 and I 

think it unlikely that one would come in for major work so soon. Of the 

total number built, the last 4 were built between 1902-1904 specifically 

for engines 97, 98, 100 & 171. That leaves tender nos: 1456-61 (built 

in 1900) and 1509-18 (built in 1901) as the only possible candidates. I 

find it hard to believe that a company as frugal as the GW kept 

expensive tenders lying about waiting for engines to be coupled to for 

years so logic would suggest that a 4000 gallon tender was not used.

 

Do we know what locos tenders 1456-1461 (blt 1900) and 1509-1518 (blt 

1901) were paired with? I guess it is possible that one of these tenders 

came into Swindon Works because its loco needed work and so it was 

paired with "La France" 102?

 

This is from Raymond Walley The Great Western Railway email list

who is building 102 La France as delivered in 1903, so, hoping collective wisdom will help.

 

Mike Spence

[Chris Higgs]

There's half a dozen pictures in the various S&D picture books of an 'intermediate' tender attached to 3206 when it was on the Somerset & Dorset in 1962.

 

Just to confuse matters, that was an intermediate tender body, but attached to churchward frames. Unlike the tender attached to 3207 and others in 1948-50 which was a pure intermediate.

[Coach bogie]

 

> I am trying to find out which tender was paired with La Farance.

 

> RCTS states that 102 was paired with a 4000 gallon tender in 1903 when 

it was taken into stock. I do not think a rebuilt tender could have 

been used since no 4000 gallon tenders were built before 1900 and I 

think it unlikely that one would come in for major work so soon. Of the 

total number built, the last 4 were built between 1902-1904 specifically 

for engines 97, 98, 100 & 171. That leaves tender nos: 1456-61 (built 

in 1900) and 1509-18 (built in 1901) as the only possible candidates. I 

find it hard to believe that a company as frugal as the GW kept 

expensive tenders lying about waiting for engines to be coupled to for 

years so logic would suggest that a 4000 gallon tender was not used.

 

Do we know what locos tenders 1456-1461 (blt 1900) and 1509-1518 (blt 

1901) were paired with? I guess it is possible that one of these tenders 

came into Swindon Works because its loco needed work and so it was 

paired with "La France" 102?

 

This is from Raymond Walley The Great Western Railway email list

who is building 102 La France as delivered in 1903, so, hoping collective wisdom will help.

 

Mike Spence

 

 

I have just picked up on this thread again after a while.

 

Having looked through my shots of 102, I have found 3/4 view showing the tender width.  The view shown shows a full width Dean 4,000 gallon tender -these also had a well below running plate level.  Compare this to the 'narrow tender behind 3440/3717. As Firebird has pointed out, these were built in two batches which were still being constructed when 102 was delivered. One challenge of identifying Dean 4,000 gallon tenders is that in side view, they are visually similar to the lower capacity Deans.

 

As you can see from the side. they have similar appearance to other capacity tenders. This is the 4,000 gallon Dean behind 100.

 

They were rebuilt over the years and here is a 4,000 gallon Dean in the 1930's with  extended fenders and substantial frame strengthening.

 

For the benefit of those who are not sure what an intermediate tender looks like here is an image of one. Visually the same as a Dean 4,000 gallon type.The thing to look out for the the horizontal rivet line as indicated. There  is nothing above this line, the filler and dome being on the same level - quite a step down for the crew. The main benefit was increased coal capacity.  This line is the top of the tank which only holds 3.500 compared to the Dean,s, 4,000 gallons. It is also riveted where as the Dean is flush sided.

 

Hope this adds to the investigation.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Chris Higgs]

I have just picked up on this thread again after a while.

 

Having looked through my shots of 102, I have found 3/4 view showing the tender width.  The view shown shows a full width Dean 4,000 gallon tender -these also had a well below running plate level.  Compare this to the 'narrow tender behind 3440/3717. As Firebird has pointed out, these were built in two batches which were still being constructed when 102 was delivered. One challenge of identifying Dean 4,000 gallon tenders is that in side view, they are visually similar to the lower capacity Deans.

102 dean mail .jpg

Dean narrow.jpg

 

As you can see from the side. they have similar appearance to other capacity tenders. This is the 4,000 gallon Dean behind 100.

later dean 100.jpg

 

They were rebuilt over the years and here is a 4,000 gallon Dean in the 1930's with  extended fenders and substantial frame strengthening.

later dean.jpg

 

For the benefit of those who are not sure what an intermediate tender looks like here is an image of one. Visually the same as a Dean 4,000 gallon type.The thing to look out for the the horizontal rivet line as indicated. There  is nothing above this line, the filler and dome being on the same level - quite a step down for the crew. The main benefit was increased coal capacity.  This line is the top of the tank which only holds 3.500 compared to the Dean,s, 4,000 gallons. It is also riveted where as the Dean is flush sided.

later intermediate line.jpg

 

Hope this adds to the investigation.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I've been drawing up a 3D print for the intermediate tender in 2mm scale. Sadly there are very few details of the interior. If it really is just a Churchward era 3500 gallon tender with higher sides and rear, that leaves both the dome, filler and the toolboxes very low. There is a photo of the rear of an Intermediate attached to a Saint on thre back cover of Pannier 18, but I'm on holiday and neglected to scan it.

 

 

This is far as I have got. I am wondering what to do with the fireiron holder - every photo I have seen of an intermediate  except one is off the other side, so difficult to deduce even from the rivets.

 

Perhaps I have the sides too high, I have made a guess that they are the same as a Collett 3500.

 

Chris

Edited July 10, 2017 by Chris Higgs

[81C]

I'm trying to find a lot numbers for all the Churchward & Collett tenders I sure I see a list somewhere but after an extensive search

 I've drawn a blank.

                               Bob

[Coach bogie]

I'm trying to find a lot numbers for all the Churchward & Collett tenders I sure I see a list somewhere but after an extensive search

 I've drawn a blank.

                               Bob

 There was a two part Great Western Study Group magazine 'Pannier' which covers the lot numbers, with plans and photos.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[81C]

 There was a two part Great Western Study Group magazine 'Pannier' which covers the lot numbers, with plans and photos.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Hi Mike thanks for the info can you point me in the right direction for these books/Mags I'm happy to purchase them, I am also waiting for Miss Prism to get back to me with what info he has but not print on the web pages yet in the GWR org site.

 

 

 

Edit I've found the web page for the magazines but can't find which ones I need.

Edited October 3, 2017 by 81C

[martinT]

Hi Mike thanks for the info can you point me in the right direction for these books/Mags I'm happy to purchase them, I am also waiting for Miss Prism to get back to me with what info he has but not print on the web pages yet in the GWR org site.

 

 

 

Edit I've found the web page for the magazines but can't find which ones I need.

 

Panniers 17 &18 (& in fairness to the GWSG webmaster the list of contents is provided alongside each cover photo).

 

Martin

[81C]

Panniers 17 &18 (& in fairness to the GWSG webmaster the list of contents is provided alongside each cover photo).

 

Martin

Thanks Martin I did look on that site but missed them, a trip to Specsavers me thinks. 

[Karhedron]

 

There's half a dozen pictures in the various S&D picture books of an 'intermediate' tender attached to 3206 when it was on the Somerset & Dorset in 1962.

Just to confuse matters, that was an intermediate tender body, but attached to churchward frames. Unlike the tender attached to 3207 and others in 1948-50 which was a pure intermediate.

 

Here is a nice shot of 3206. Is that the Intermediate tender or a ROD tender behind it?

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Karhedron