GWR tender options still to be modelled (3500 and 4000 gallon)

[Chris Higgs]

Here is a nice shot of 3206. Is that the Intermediate tender or a ROD tender behind it?

 

 

That is a ROD tender.

 

Chris

[Chris Higgs]

This is an intermediate tender body, but on Churchward frames.

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Chris Higgs

[M.I.B]

I would say ROD straight away due to the lack of handrail fading into the extended fender side.

[brianusa]

On the subject of tenders, what was the original for the early 4-4-0 Counties?  I have seen pictures of various tenders fitted, including the eight wheel job off the Pacific.

 

Brian.

[Miss Prism]

On the subject of tenders, what was the original for the early 4-4-0 Counties?  I have seen pictures of various tenders fitted, including the eight wheel job off the Pacific.

 

Lot 149 (of 1904), 3800 and 3831-9, had 3000g tenders, probably diagram A61, initially with no vacuum tanks, but later with longitudinal vacuum tanks;

Lot 165 (of 1906), 3801-20, had 3500g tenders, transverse vacuum tanks;

Lot 184 (of 1911/2), 3821-30, had 3500g tenders, longitudinal vacuum tanks

 

It seems all these tenders were fitted with scoops.

 

(All running numbers are for post-1912 renumbering)

Edited February 9, 2018 by Miss Prism

[Chris Higgs]

I would say ROD straight away due to the lack of handrail fading into the extended fender side.

 

I think the lack of rivets on the side is enough. Not to mention the wheelbase.

[Elliot 84A]

I'm currently doing a Churchward tender in 3D and trying to work out whats what is a bloody minefield. The one I'm portraying is from the later lot A79-80, similar to that behind 3850. I don't have the correct drawings for the axleboxes yet so I'm having to make do with what I have in my library (can't beat good old GWR standardisation) for now.

 

 

[JimC]

I think the identification of the 'intermediate' tender with Lot A112 in Pannier is over simplistic. I've spent a reasonable amount of time studying this, but its really hard to draw any firm conclusions.

 

There are two features normally called intermediate, high sides and scalloped frames, but neither seems exclusive to lot A112. One of the odd things about the high sides is that they don't seem to be shown in any GA drawings I have traced, nor recorded in the Tender Lot record book. The GA drawing for lot 112 shows the standard lower sides. Its confusing, as some do, to call them Churchward Intermediate tenders, since they were built several years after GJC retired.

 

I have found 1920s and 1930s vintage photos of the high sided variant on tenders with the earlier style frames, so before lot A112, so it seems most likely they were fitted on some new tenders before lot A112. They seem to have been originally run with rebuilt Stars and Castles, but later on these received 4,000 gallon tenders so the high sides were seen on other classes. Presumably they were not replaced, since the surviving lot A112 tender has low sides and a replacement tank.

 

The scalloped frames, as noted above, are also not limited to lot A112 as I've seen a photo of 3,000 gallon tender with these frames.

There is a note written in the Tender record book saying that lot 112 was built with high sides, and this isn't mentioned against other lots, but when you examine the writing and other entries it seems pretty clear this was written in several years later and is not contemporary with the tender construction.

 

The whole thing is a minefield for modellers, because if you go through the drawings numbers in the record book its clear that there was never a clean sheet redesign of tenders after 1884. There were always some drawings - and thus parts designs - reused from previous designs. This means it was always possible to repair tenders with later parts, especially if new or heavily altered frames were fitted. Even the late slab sided tenders have a fair number of suspension components in common with the design that preceded them. So on the one hand, if you want to model a specific prototype you do need a dated photograph. On the other hand if there are no dated photographs almost any combination of features seems to be possible!

Edited October 15, 2017 by JimC

[JimC]

I'm currently doing a Churchward tender in 3D and trying to work out whats what is a bloody minefield.

 

I would say that those are post 1931 design frames - at least the design as used from 1931 on new tenders - which were often fitted to earlier tenders.

[Elliot 84A]

I would say that those are post 1931 design frames - at least the design as used from 1931 on new tenders - which were often fitted to earlier tenders.

Absolutely correct Jim, 3850's tender was actually first paired with a Star but at some point received a new set of frames and a fully welded tank, triggers broom springs to mind. The drawing I used is dated 1931.

[JimC]

 

> I don't have the correct drawings for the axleboxes yet so I'm having to make do with what I have in my library 

 

Axlebox drawings were:

12504 for most lots from A6-A91

47737 for lots A92 - A142

111273 for lots A145- A192

 

So your axleboxes would most likely be 47737 or 111273 after 1937.

Edited October 16, 2017 by JimC

[steve fay]

Does any one have a list of the locos that was paired with the Collett 4000 Gallon welded tender Diagram A123 ?

BR period.

Thanks

[Chris Higgs]

Does any one have a list of the locos that was paired with the Collett 4000 Gallon welded tender Diagram A123 ?

BR period.

Thanks

 

When it was attached to Castles, you might find it on here:

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php

 

Unfortunately, the site really only has tender coverage for Castles.

 

EDIT: but I thought A123 was the eight-wheeled tender? If so, there are numerous lists about of the allocations of that.

 

Chris

Edited October 23, 2017 by Chris Higgs

[steve fay]

Thanks Chris

I have the list of locos attached to the 8 wheel Tender, in fact I have that one under construction at the moment in 7mm. It’s the Collett 4000 Gallon Tender with welded tender Tank I’m interested in finding out what engines it was running with particularly around 1960 /63

[Chris Higgs]

Thanks Chris

I have the list of locos attached to the 8 wheel Tender, in fact I have that one under construction at the moment in 7mm. It’s the Collett 4000 Gallon Tender with welded tender Tank I’m interested in finding out what engines it was running with particularly around 1960 /63

 

Do you know what the tender number was?

 

Chris

[steve fay]

From what I’ve read 5 we’re built and coupled to the first post war batch of castles 5098 onwards, I believe one is numbered 2777.

I think I’ve just come across a colour shot of 5017 The Gloucestershire Regiment atttched to one in 1962.

I can’t post the pic up for copyright reasons.

[Edwardian]

Are there any published 4mm scale drawings of a Churchward 4,000 gallon tender?

 

I find that a high proportion of Hall Class locomotives were paired with them in the 1930s.  Other tenders used with Halls in the period were Churchward 3,500 gallon, the Collett 4,000 gallon and the Collett 3,500 gallon, all of three of which have been available RTR (though doubtless not in all variations). 

 

Finding drawings to bash up the Churchward 4,000 gallon has thus far, proved unsuccessful.

[Miss Prism]

I find that a high proportion of Hall Class locomotives were paired with them in the 1930s.

 

With the Churchward 4000g?

[Edwardian]

With the Churchward 4000g?

 

Yes, if by "high proportion" one reads "four".  I don't honestly know why I said that.

 

Anyway, I need one and I note the following pairings:

 

1934:

 

4947 with 1539

4953  with 1582

 

1935:

 

4008 with 1512

4945 with 1515

 

At least these are Churchward 4,000 gallon tenders according to the list in Pocock & Harrison.

 

I was thinking of modelling 4947, Nanhoran Hall, a Laira loco at the time.  After a General overhaul in August 1933 she had ended 1934 with tender 1539, and had acquired a Churchward 3.5Kg tender by the end of 1935, I guess in August when she had an Intermediate service.

 

 

 

 

 

.

Edited October 23, 2017 by Edwardian

[Chris Higgs]

From what I’ve read 5 we’re built and coupled to the first post war batch of castles 5098 onwards, I believe one is numbered 2777.

I think I’ve just come across a colour shot of 5017 The Gloucestershire Regiment atttched to one in 1962.

I can’t post the pic up for copyright reasons.

 

2777 was indeed the tender attached to 5017 in 1962. However the tenders initially attached to 5098 onwards were numbered 4010-16.

[JimC]

At least these are Churchward 4,000 gallon tenders according to the list in Pocock & Harrison..

 

It all depends what you call a Churchward tender I suppose. Lot A51 (1509-1518) was built in 1901, and according to the drawings list most of the components had been designed in the 1890s, so might be better described as Dean. 1539 and 1560 were nominally built while Churchward was in charge, but were essentially using the same drawings. TBH I think putting CME names against tenders is rather notional. I find it hard to believe that Churchward's involvement in tender design went much beyond 'too many bl**dy frames are breaking: design some better ones'.

 

Looking at the drawings list the Dean/Churchward 4,000 gallon tenders look to have been fundamentally the same chassis as the Dean 3,000 gallon ones and the early Churchward 3,500s. They look to have been built with something different in the water pickup gear, because the drawing number is different and there's a note in the book saying "converted to hand gear now". Exactly what frames they would have had in the 1930s though: a lot of those frames did get replaced, and you'd think the tenders with the heaviest load would break most often. The tender article in Pannier in 2003 says that 1560 at least received Collett era frames at some stage. I've just seen a photo of 1560 in RCTS part 12 (M16) dated 1952 attached to 2938, and not only does it have 1931 style Collett frames, it also has a Collett style fender running right round it. Only the front corner of the sides and the handrail arrangement looks like the earlier design.

Edited October 26, 2017 by JimC

[6892 Oakhill Grange]

Absolutely correct Jim, 3850's tender was actually first paired with a Star but at some point received a new set of frames and a fully welded tank, triggers broom springs to mind. The drawing I used is dated 1931.

 

Tell me more about welded tanks. Flush riveted tanks until sometime around WW1 then visible rivets. I thought visible rivets for ever. It always seemed strange that Pannier started to appear with welded tanks while Collet 4000 gal tenders with rivets were being churned out for another 20+ years.

 

Oakhill

[Marshall5]

Deleted

Edited November 8, 2017 by Marshall5

[Wenrash]

In September 2007 the late Peter Rich submitted one of his many articles to "Model Engineer" This was called "Churchward's Rough Riders". He submitted drawings for the article.

He chose to submit tender drawings of a "Dean" 4000 gal tender as modified in 1912 condition. He supplied a side elevation, both end elevations and a plan of the tender.

 

He say there were 20 built, lot numbers A46/51/53/55/56 and A60. Works numbers 1456-1461, 1509-1518, 1539, 1560, 1561, 1582.

The first 17 were built with coal rails, the last 3 with small plate side fender. They were modified to having plate coal rails in the first decade. All had flush rivets.

The last four were specifically built for "Churchward" locomotives 100, 97/98 and 101.

 

All other details comply with what JimC has written above.

Peter says that the scoop was originally worked by a vacuum cylinder  let into the well. As he has drawn the tender with a Steam Brake cylinder, I think he meant a Steam Cylinder.

Similar cylinders can be seen in Russell  Vol 1 GA drawings of the 3000 gal  tenders.

 

Identifying features.

The back vertical hand rail was a standard 3000 gal one fixed at the bottom, usual place, just above the horizontal fixing angle. This meant that there was a longer gap between the upper stanchion and the top of the flare.

The front vertical handrail finished at the flare with a bracket attaching it to the flare with an additional support at the bottom of the flare.

 

Photographs of these details can be seen early on in Laurence Waters book on the Saint Class. The first nine or so had 4000 gal tenders. When the 3500 gal were built mid 1905, these were fitted to subsequent locomotives.

 

The 1911 modifications.

Peters drawing show a tender very similar to a 3500 gal standard tender.

The Coal plates are now long like the 3500 gal tenders. The back handrail is the same, but the front handrail is turned over and attached to the coal plate/fender.

 

Identifying Features 

The large gap from the top of the back stanchion to the top of the flare.

The front handrail horizontal is level with the bottom of the cab cutout.

 

For the 3500 gal tenders this hand rail is 4 inches lower than the cab cutout.

 

Now wade through the the rest of Laurence Waters Saint book until you come to 2954 Tockenham Court on pages 126 and 133.

You can see the horizontal part of the front handrail is level with the cab cutout. In other photographs the handrails are lower by the 4 inches.

All as Peter Rich details.

 

I think these are modern photographs of a D/C 4000 gal tender.

 

This leaves a problem with Mike Wiltshire's 4000 gal tender.

 

Richard

[Miss Prism]

Unless someone shows me a drawing or a photograph, I am still thoroughly confused as to what a 'Dean' 4000g looks like.