RandyWales Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Hi again.... GOOD NEWS.... I can confirm JMRI Virtual Sound Decoder and Bluetooth Audio Streaming WORKS!!!!! BAD NEWS.... At the moment, component size rules out 4mm unless you're good at Surface Mount Soldering.. MORE GOOD NEWS.... Sound for my 7mm fleet will cost me (per loco)..........£25 (yes....that's TWENTY FIVE pounds).... Thanks must go to ClickertyClack for advising the purchase of simple Bluetooth speakers... I purchased a small Technika Bluetooth speaker set from Tesco (surprisingly decent quality) for £15. I also purchased a variable power supply kit from Maplins for £10. I dismantled the Bluetooth device. I disconnected the battery and replaced it with the power supply which was connected to a transformer. I switched it on and paired it with my laptop. I started JMRI Virtual Sound Decoder and selected my Class 37 project and it worked first time. I now have to install the device/speakers and power supply to my Heljan Class 37. Obviously, this is a big learning curve for me, and there may yet be some obstacles (electrical interference from the loco motors being one that comes to mind), but this is a big step forward. The JMRI VSD software isn't as ropey as the developer stated...it works fine. I'll document each step as I go and will post a HowTo at a convenient time. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted December 29, 2013 Share Posted December 29, 2013 Hi again....GOOD NEWS....I can confirm JMRI Virtual Sound Decoder and Bluetooth Audio Streaming WORKS!!!!! Never doubted that it wouldn't!!BAD NEWS....At the moment, component size rules out 4mm unless you're good at Surface Mount Soldering.. Although successfully achieving this for my own benefit using different components, I have as you below purchased 'of the shelf' (pun intended) bluetooth speakers for my grandsons trainset. I have installed the units and speakers in Thomas's carriages and Percy's mail vans Mylocosound fashion. Difference being the sound quality of course ,not withstanding the use of 'real' sound samples! Mylocosound? Prefer My Loco Sound! MORE GOOD NEWS....Sound for my 7mm fleet will cost me (per loco)..........£25 (yes....that's TWENTY FIVE pounds)....Thanks must go to ClickertyClack for advising the purchase of simple Bluetooth speakers...I purchased a small Technika Bluetooth speaker set from Tesco (surprisingly decent quality) for £15.I also purchased a variable power supply kit from Maplins for £10.I dismantled the Bluetooth device. I disconnected the battery and replaced it with the power supply which was connected to a transformer.I switched it on and paired it with my laptop. The thread says cheaper!!!! That's way too expensive! Similar units are available on the net for a tenner.You will not be need a power supply for it inside the loco so that is another saving. The unit can be powered in one of 3 ways. a) Via a function output on your decoder b) Derive power supply from the DCC bus via loco pickups. Simples and pennies. c) Rechargeable batteries with a mini 3.5mm jack socket in bottom of loco for charging. I started JMRI Virtual Sound Decoder and selected my Class 37 project and it worked first time.I now have to install the device/speakers and power supply to my Heljan Class 37. OK Randall, for now I would simply go with the batteries, you can sought out power supply later. To what do you intend to connect your power supply? So first things first try it with batteries inside of loco. Next speakers. You will no doubt from many posts in RMweb, be aware of the importance of speaker enclosures. Try and salvage from your unit something that will act as such albeit temporary.Should you place the speakers in the loco in free air so to speak the results will be disappointing irrespective of the better quality 44kz 16 bit sound. Obviously, this is a big learning curve for me, and there may yet be some obstacles (electrical interference from the loco motors being one that comes to mind), but this is a big step forward No problems with my tatty old Hornby 25 as seen in the vid or subsequent better quality locos. The JMRI VSD software isn't as ropey as the developer stated...it works fine. Correct. That statement was with reference to the initial release of VSD. Mark ( and indeed myself ) spent many hours removing/chasing bugs prior to its last release. I'll document each step as I go and will post a HowTo at a convenient time. Well done Randall, you will soon be a full member of the better quality and cheaper DCC sound club! CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted December 29, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 29, 2013 Phil, Tested a SDXH166D last night. (Digitrains have them in stock locally). Loco selection is via CV60. Diesels are values 0~5, steam 6 and 7. I now fully appreciate the term 'Caveat Emptor'. Fortunately for me, I can return it. Kind regards, Paul Oh well never mind, it was only 40 quid from the States. To be honest, now I've got the trackwork laid and sorted on the US layout (in the small bedroom) and running some trains I'm thinking of canning sound altogether - for me even at low volume it really grates after about 10 minutes. I might just go with the generic ambient railway sound cds played in the background just to break the silence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 30, 2013 Share Posted December 30, 2013 Hi again... Hopefully, the Youtube thingy is working again.... Class 37 VSD Project... Randall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZeCc0w1og0&feature=youtu.be Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Me again.... This is a demo of the VSD developer's Steam project. Absolutely no frills....no transitions... Snippets from various locomotives by the sound of things. The lower end sounds are jumpy, so it would be fair to ignore them. Some of the sounds are very good, especially when heard through the Bluetooth speakers at the other end of the room....Plenty of barking bass.... It's only my opinion, but I'm certain VSD Steam could be decent given half a chance.... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 So then.....Options...options...options. This thread goes full circle.... The OP announces that a single 4mm sound decoder can accomodate four or more different loco sound projects through offboard speakers, but then expresses that this is a tad disappointing because the sounds are static. I have today successfully tested offboard sound decoder output being jacked through my laptop via "Virtual Audio Cable" software to the Bluetooth Audio Streamed speakers. What does this mean?.... ClickertyClack stated that he had installed a Bluetooth device onboard his grandson's Thomas the Tank trainset coaches.... There's a hint for you.... Instead of routing (offboard) sound decoder output to external speakers, you can send it direct via Bluetooth to onboard speakers in the leading coach or van (which will be large enough to accomodate the Bluetooth module and speakers). Some might say this is similar to some other methods for providing sound....but this is synchronised to the locomotive's DCC controller behavior. Food for thought? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 1, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 1, 2014 So then.....Options...options...options. This thread goes full circle.... The OP announces that a single 4mm sound decoder can accomodate four or more different loco sound projects through offboard speakers, but then expresses that this is a tad disappointing because the sounds are static. I have today successfully tested offboard sound decoder output being jacked through my laptop via "Virtual Audio Cable" software to the Bluetooth Audio Streamed speakers. What does this mean?.... ClickertyClack stated that he had installed a Bluetooth device onboard his grandson's Thomas the Tank trainset coaches.... There's a hint for you.... Instead of routing (offboard) sound decoder output to external speakers, you can send it direct via Bluetooth to onboard speakers in the leading coach or van (which will be large enough to accomodate the Bluetooth module and speakers). Some might say this is similar to some other methods for providing sound....but this is synchronised to the locomotive's DCC controller behavior. Food for thought? Randall the sound project does sound very impressive and theres more likely a lot more scope for tender steam engines because you can install the "gubbins" in a tender loco.... however for me the big disadvantage is being unable to install it in a diesel loco as towing a sound coach around is no good to me. id be interested to see a model demonstration purely to see if the sound remains in sync with the locomotive reason being you are relying on the jmri software to play your sounds with in theory no interaction with the locomotive as as far as im aware and happy to be corrected DCC doesent allow for the locomotive to communicate back its current state to the decoder? for example as far as I know a locomotive doesn't tell a controller when its stopped or when its slowing down or when its speeding up. But its clearly working for you so good on you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Explanation enough as to why clickertyclack wouldn't show a picture of a "locomotive" with a blue tooth module in then! But respect the sound project does sound very impressive and theres more likely a lot more scope for tender steam engines because you can install the "gubbins" in a tender loco.... however for me the big disadvantage is being unable to install it in a diesel loco as towing a sound coach around is no good to me. id be interested to see a model demonstration purely to see if the sound remains in sync with the locomotive reason being you are relying on the jmri software to play your sounds with in theory no interaction with the locomotive as as far as im aware and happy to be corrected DCC doesent allow for the locomotive to communicate back its current state to the decoder? for example as far as I know a locomotive doesn't tell a controller when its stopped or when its slowing down or when its speeding up. But its clearly working for you so good on you Hi Pheaton.... Happy New Year. Thanks for the feedback....much appreciated. The JMRI software is designed to talk to your handheld DCC controller via an interface, so the sounds and loco speeds will be sychronised if all set up properly. I think ClickertyClack pointed out in a recent post that he used different components in his Bluetooth setup to those available off the shelf. Having admired the complexity of his setup in the videos, I have no reason to doubt that he is technically capable of doing what he says. Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 I'll try to address Pheaton's questions about synchronisation when using Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD). Bottom line, there isn't a feedback mechanism between loco actual movement and the sound generated. However, it's not all gloom... The software behaves a little bit like a "consist" or similar to having a loco sound decoder below the baseboard. The actual loco running above the layout may move at a different rate to the software decoder below the baseboard. Suitable settings might make the software and loco move together (but there aren't many settings in VSD yet, so its mostly a matter of not having much, if any, acceleration/deceleration in the loco and driving gently on the throttle). Really close synchronisation isn't needed for diesel-electrics, the diesel engine noise changes independently of speed of locomotive (and there is an argument that having two throttles open, one for the engine noise and another for the loco speed is a good solution, VSD will let you do this). With steam and diesel-mechanical, synchronisation becomes more important. Its possible to get close, but there will need to be more development inside VSD for it to happen. VSD has a fair bit of potential. But it needs many things adding to it to turn it from an interesting idea to something lots of people might use. Its also a bit broken for Windows users at present because the OpenAL software installer for Windows is difficult to find. If willing to help with developing stuff for VSD, then I suggest contacting Mark Underwood, the primary writer of VSD, via the JMRI-Users or JMRI-developers email lists. If individuals won't reveal details, be it the steps to construct a specific transition sequence in a Zimo decoder or the parts to make a bluetooth speaker system for OO locos, then there isn't much that can be done. I can't explain how to do either of them, so both are "not possible" as far as I am concerned. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NoggintheNog Posted January 2, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 2, 2014 Really close synchronisation isn't needed for diesel-electrics, the diesel engine noise changes independently of speed of locomotive (and there is an argument that having two throttles open, one for the engine noise and another for the loco speed is a good solution, VSD will let you do this). Just a reader of this thread myself, but I thought I would comment on this, as I absolutely think its not only a good solution, but a great one. On my US outline equipment I have a few QSI sound decoders, which have an approximation of this built into them, pressing F9 decouples the sound from the speed, the loco goes at constant velocity (whatever it was set at at the time, whilst the throttle controls sound, with diesels it not only increases revs but volume to represent a loco working hard under load etc. It is possibly the best way of simulating the sound of a loco pulling a heavy load I've ever used, and if that can be done with JMRI then I would urge people to try it, it was quite an eye opener for me when I first used it, bearing in mind I thought it was just another gimmick when i read the spec sheet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted January 3, 2014 Share Posted January 3, 2014 Gentlemen, Having read Nigelcliffes post (below) I have added some comments that I hope may be of interest. I'll try to address Pheaton's questions about synchronisation when using Virtual Sound Decoder (VSD). Bottom line, there isn't a feedback mechanism between loco actual movement and the sound generated. However, it's not all gloom... I think in fairness it should be stated that there is no feedback between motion control and sound circuits either within a soundchip AFAIK. I can not speak for the market leader but am not aware of any on chip/dye communication between sound aspects and motion control with other soundchips. The software behaves a little bit like a "consist" or similar to having a loco sound decoder below the baseboard. The actual loco running above the layout may move at a different rate to the software decoder below the baseboard. Suitable settings might make the software and loco move together (but there aren't many settings in VSD yet, so its mostly a matter of not having much, if any, acceleration/deceleration in the loco and driving gently on the throttle). Personally I find the above a little misleading and somewhat confusing. Suitable settings might make the software and loco move together (but there aren't many settings in VSD yet, so its mostly a matter of not having much, if any, acceleration/deceleration in the loco and driving gently on the throttle). ...Eh? I believe that in its most simplest form VSD behaves exactly as an onboard soundchip. If I may refer to Pheatons post again ' I'd be interested to see a model demonstration purely to see if the sound remains in sync with the locomotive reason being you are relying on the jmri software to play your sounds with in theory no interaction with the locomotive' I think there is some confusion in how VSD actually works. Essentially VSD is listening to the same commands as that of a locomotive soundchip which are sent from a throttle/handset. Hence the name Virtual Sound Decoder.What it listens to are the same motion control commands that are sent to the decoder. eg. a command is sent from the throttle to increase speed to speed set 45. This is received by the motion control aspects of a decoder that responds accordingly as do the sound aspects be it onboard or VSD. Now a soundchip project compiler has written in a sound change for say F2/notch 2 at speed step 45 and this can similarly be written into a VSD project. So when the speed change command is sent from a throttle VSD will respond in the same way as that of a soundchip. If I am wrong then for me VSD has not got the potential I thought it had. Really close synchronisation isn't needed for diesel-electrics, the diesel engine noise changes independently of speed of locomotive (and there is an argument that having two throttles open, one for the engine noise and another for the loco speed is a good solution, VSD will let you do this). I can not think of any reason why anyone would wish to implement the above method. We are back to driving the sound and driving the engine. And above discussions have focused on synchronization etc . What use the feedback mechanism now assuming there was one? Should people wish to have a system that do'es as Nigel has suggested, there are far more simpler methods than JMRI and VSD. With steam and diesel-mechanical, synchronisation becomes more important. Its possible to get close, but there will need to be more development inside VSD for it to happen. I whole kindheartedly agree with the above. However of interest to me is the fact that I am not governed by a sound decoders hardware architecture and subsequent sound potential. In software, (VSD) providing we have enough imagination and the relevant skills we can write our own 'architecture' and also it should be stated that the processing power of even the lowliest laptop/pc (or maybe even tablets etc) far outperform that of a soundchip and probably always will do. VSD has a fair bit of potential. But it needs many things adding to it to turn it from an interesting idea to something lots of people might use.It also a bit broken for Windows users at present because the OpenAL software installer for Windows is difficult to find. If willing to help with developing stuff for VSD, then I suggest contacting Mark Underwood, the primary writer of VSD, via the JMRI-Users or JMRI-developers email lists. Don't bother looking for OpenAL drivers Guys, you don't need them for bluetooth or even in simple audio mode! The OpenAL format was designed by creative labs with games, and surround sound in mind. If you have a creative card then there really is no problem. It is up to other soundcard manufacturers if they wish to follow suit and produce openAL drivers, and many do. OpenAL is required by JMRI's soundpro application. As of yet surround functions are not fully integrated into VSD and as we do not wish to use this ability anyway we do not need openAL. It should be stated that even JMRI will default to windows default audio device should no openAL drivers be available. So you could still use VSD as opposed to an individual soundchip feeding layout mounted speakers. It could be argued that with a bluetooth application we do not even need a soundcard. All data remains in the digital realm until it is received by the onboard bluetooth D/A decoder. If individuals won't reveal details, be it the steps to construct a specific transition sequence in a Zimo decoder or the parts to make a bluetooth speaker system for OO locos, then there isn't much that can be done. I can't explain how to do either of them, so both are "not possible" as far as I am concerned. I don't know how to operate the dishwasher...so I don't use it. But I do know you can not bypass the F1, F2 slots on a..................oh never mind CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi again... i've taken a major step forward in getting cheap and quality sound aboard my Heljan Class37. I purchased a VEHO 360BT for £18 from Tesco with the full expectation that I would be disappointed with the sound quality. I thought that there would only be a single (mono) speaker in such a small device. How wrong I was... My original plan was to install the device intact in the body cavity...see the video... However, when I carefully dismantled the speaker enclosure, I was delighted to find that not only was the PCB tiny, there were actually back to back speakers giving full stereo. There are a lot more possibilities than I initially thought... Randall https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4btPWgloWA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Hi again... A few images showing the internals of the Bluetooth Speaker module.... Randall This image shows the circuit board.... This image shows the battery (the Bluetooth antenna is the squiggly bit on the right hand side). This next image shows one of the speakers inside. This image shows the other speaker which is normally underneath the grill... Finally...for a bit of scale.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 ......and complete numpties / luddites / technophobes who just want to order, one of these, one of those please, plug it all in and have the perfect sound of a Bulleid pacific starting away with 10 on. ....oh, and a seagull in the background. Guess which camp I'm in........ Ooops....sorry! I'm not really interested in who has done what and when - what interests me is can I have better sound than is currently available, especially with regard to what, IMHO, is the current dire state of supposedly steam sounds. I don't really care where the sound comes from as long as it sounds as it should do and is reasonably affordable. Hi Phil... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/72206-what-to-do/ I've just browsed your "What to do?" thread and after seeing your opening statement, offer this as a suggestion.... Maybe...rather than trying to utilise existing Sound Decoder offerings, which plainly do not satisfy your tastes... Why not try....installing a Bluetooth module like the one I demonstrated in my previous post, and playing a carefully matched stereo recording through them from a laptop or MP3 player as you watch your Bullied Pacific with ten on running around the layout. I personally think there are excellent steam recordings available that DO give that feeling of being there. Okay, it would mean running the trains to match the recording, but the full stereo experience of watching the trains go by would I think, go some way further to achieving the steam sound experience you desire. Just a thought.... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I'm not as sceptical as David White, but I'd like to see proof. Proof comes to me in two forms, either a commercially available product, or full description of parts and code for hobby use. Until either is offered, then it is an interesting concept, but concept only. This isn't any different to the last time the thread appeared and the new "full CD quality" was suggested; interesting concept, but useless to anyone without either the documentation to build your own (or assess what is being proposed), or a commercial product to purchase. VSD within JMRI is a little beyond interesting concept, but still very basic. There is an audio file example which works tolerably well to demonstrate the concept, and several which are not anywhere near to the standard needed to threaten even the lowest quality alternatives. I know from my own work within JMRI that its down to individual hobbyists to write stuff, get it tested and documented. That takes time, and many ideas get dropped at the concept stage and not pushed to a polished component. - Nigel Hi again... I'm using Nigel's post as a the basis of this question, as it reflects some of the opinions that were being offered last month.... Given the progress I think I've made towards demonstrating that this isn't just a pie-in-the-sky idea, is anyone out there (apart from ClickertyClack) willing to offer encouragement? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hi again... I'm using Nigel's post as a the basis of this question, as it reflects some of the opinions that were being offered last month.... Given the progress I think I've made towards demonstrating that this isn't just a pie-in-the-sky idea, is anyone out there (apart from ClickertyClack) willing to offer encouragement? Randall I'm happy to give you my support. You're describing what you are doing, and explaining where the parts come from. That meets my statement. There are numerous more steps though; the current JMRI implementation remains as I described; one reasonably decent sound file. It needs more good examples, or better documentation for other users to explain how to do things. One major weakness in JMRI is documentation. So, my suggestion is that you might want to consider contributing "how to.." material to the JMRI documentation. ( I can point you at the relevant places if interested ). - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Hi again... I'm using Nigel's post as a the basis of this question, as it reflects some of the opinions that were being offered last month.... Given the progress I think I've made towards demonstrating that this isn't just a pie-in-the-sky idea, is anyone out there (apart from ClickertyClack) willing to offer encouragement? Randall I think that you have been encouraged to reveal and share the concept with us and I think that it has been a demonstrable success and the title of the thread has been justified. Nevertheless, it has become obvious that there is no synchronisation between the sounds played and the operation of the loco using a throttle. This is a fatal flaw for most modellers, me included and I suspect, PhilH as well. Remember that the vast majority of railway modellers ( who are probably not on here ) just want to know that they spend the requisite amount, take a loco out of its box, plonk it on the supplied track circle, plug in their cheap DCC controller, twist the throttle knob and the loco moves and makes a sound. The beauty of this is that the same loco can run on anyone's track. It can be sent back if it doesn't work. It can be re-blown with alternative sounds for hardly any money. It is Ready to Run. This sub forum is actually tiny in relation to the overall forum On here are the modellers who have decided to take things further and offer sophisticated sound projects which the decoder is designed to play in accordance with the operators needs and desires. Some of those operators have written there own projects, bought programmers and done other research within the decoder's architecture and shared the results on here either when asked or just because they feel it advances the hobby. Not one of us would suggest that the sound quality is all that good, even now. Yards of threads about the mounting of speakers which has long been recognised as being the best way to get acceptable sound from a decoder purchase. Also there is yet another fatal flaw in this offered alternative, it has been shown being fitted to an O gauge loco and no attempt has been made to adapt the components to OO gauge. PhilH and I model in OO gauge and Nigelcliffe is a leading light in 2mm. The O gauge element on RMWeb is possibly smaller than the DCC Sound one. Clickertyclack's system is patently controlled by a DC controller and although impressive on a YouTube video, has not been demonstrated in public although the opportunity has been offered in the past. This forum has regularly played host to YouTube videos that seem pretty good at the time of viewing but quickly fade away. This thread started with a really great idea with limited appeal. The mounting of a sound decoder under the layout containing 4 different limited sound projects for four different locos run one at a time. The ability to pipe the resultant sound to speakers of good quality, mounted other than on the loco was a sensible move for a small layout like a branch terminus, a shunting plank or even a small MPD was a very good idea. Above all else we have to accept that not everyone is prepared to both acquire and work with a sound bank to produce the sounds on a layout and the original idea allowed four locos to produce sound for the price of one and through better speakers hence the thread title is adequately served by this method. All of this thread remains in the DIY category which has become very small over the years as the march of RTR has accelerated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I think that a free sound assembley programme like Audacity would allow you to make up a file that could be tailored to fit any layout or loco, just a thought! regards mike g Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think that a free sound assembley programme like Audacity would allow you to make up a file that could be tailored to fit any layout or loco, just a thought! regards mike g Well yes Mike, most sound project compilers are very familiar with Audacity. My point is that you need to have the sounds in the first place. Audacity doesn't provide those. I record my own when I need them. I think quite a few of the compilers on here do just the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I think that you have been encouraged to reveal and share the concept with us and I think that it has been a demonstrable success and the title of the thread has been justified. Nevertheless, it has become obvious that there is no synchronisation between the sounds played and the operation of the loco using a throttle. I would contend that it is NOT obvious...Mark Underwood's video, his contributions to forums, and the (admittedly limited) JMRI documentation state that VSD listens-for and responds to the same responses as the hardware throttle... Quote: .....runs on your computer and acts like... a sound decoder... listening for throttle events and generating sounds (engine, bells, horns, whistles, etc.) when you change the throttle or push a function button. Works with the JMRI software throttles or with your hardware throttles (or WiThrottle/EngineDriver)..... Mark Underwood: developer This is a fatal flaw for most modellers, me included and I suspect, PhilH as well. see below... This sub forum is actually tiny in relation to the overall forum I think you are underselling this thread insomuch there have been a lot of views and it is already second only to the DCC Sound Video thread in the DCC Sound subforum, which must surely indicate that people are interested, even if they haven't said anything. Yes, it is specialised and splattered with jargon, but that doesn't stop a member popping back every so often to check. Also, lots of other members probably wouldn't be aware that the topic is underway...but they might be inspired if they became aware of it. On here are the modellers who have decided to take things further and offer sophisticated sound projects which the decoder is designed to play in accordance with the operators needs and desires. Some of those operators have written there own projects, bought programmers and done other research within the decoder's architecture and shared the results on here either when asked or just because they feel it advances the hobby. I understand what you're saying...but for the sake of not wishing to inflame...no comment.. Also there is yet another fatal flaw (See below.... ) in this offered alternative, it has been shown being fitted to an O gauge loco and no attempt has been made to adapt the components to OO gauge. PhilH and I model in OO gauge and Nigelcliffe is a leading light in 2mm. The O gauge element on RMWeb is possibly smaller than the DCC Sound one. That's as maybe, but with 7mm being as expensive as it is, it's about time the possibility of some major savings came our way. And it may not stay quiet for long...jungle drums etc I do wish you'd stop referring to this cheap alternative as having FATAL flaws... This is a hobby, not an ER. Software 'flaws' are easily fixed.... I HAVE actually attempted to build a 4mm-sized Bluetooth module, but my micro-skills let me down. That's not to say it can't be done, or isn't already out there....A suitable Bluetooth module is half the size of a 4mm decoder. The ones I've used are quite complex due to the need to control volume and audio track selection etc as part of their design objectives. More importantly...adapting existing hardware is what makes it so cheap. Remember, audio is also streamed to Bluetooth headphones.... so thinking small 'can't be done' is incorrect. This thread started with a really great idea with limited appeal. The mounting of a sound decoder under the layout containing 4 different limited sound projects for four different locos run one at a time. The ability to pipe the resultant sound to speakers of good quality, mounted other than on the loco was a sensible move for a small layout like a branch terminus, a shunting plank or even a small MPD was a very good idea. AGREED...A really great idea indeed. Isn't the same idea - expanded to stream sound decoder output to an onboard Bluetooth speaker - even better? I've done it and it works, and it will become my option of choice if VSD falls flat. I will save the cost of four 7mm sound decoders (circa £750) by taking this option...You can't blame me for trying VSD first....VSD is free.Above all else we have to accept that not everyone is prepared to both acquire and work with a sound bank to produce the sounds on a layout and the original idea allowed four locos to produce sound for the price of one and through better speakers hence the thread title is adequately served by this method. But for every fifty people who fit your description of accepting the status quo, there will be one or two who will be prepared to try something different....If those individuals have picked up an idea or two, I will be happy. And to the other 48.....get along to Tesco and pick up a quality dual-speakered device with a readymade enclosure - for £18 - you can throw away the Bluetooth module.... Sorry David...Why do I keep thinking your lengthy replies are a SMOKESCREEN? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Having read DCWhites post I have again added comments that may be of interest I think that you have been encouraged to reveal and share the concept with us and I think that it has been a demonstrable success and the title of the thread has been justified. Nevertheless, it has become obvious that there is no synchronisation between the sounds played and the operation of the loco using a throttle. Only obvious to you it seems dwhite4dcc. The following is a section of a message posted in the JMRI Users Group by Nigel (Cliffe) and I quote; 'It works on my copy of JMRI 3.5.4. Windows-7 (32bit). I used the EMD 645 Turbo sound from the default library, and that plays fine. The buttons make noises, and if I run the throttle on my Zephyr command station(*), the loco motor goes up/down the notches as it should, and the horn and bell respond to function keys. The steam also works, though the chuffs sound awful (so needs work on either the sound files or the underlying VSD code). So the principle works.' Message no 101164 JMRI Users Group I'll run that past you again.......... and if I run the throttle on my Zephyr command station(*), the loco motor goes up/down the notches as it should If Nigel says it works, then that is good enough for me. This is a fatal flaw for most modellers, me included and I suspect, PhilH as well On Re-reading PhilH's posts I am not so sure he would agree with you. VSD would seem to fit the criteria of his post and I quote; ' If this is the case then surely if a system can be developed whereby sounds can be generated by a decoder driven in the same way as the loco it is supposed to represent, but fed into an external amp/speaker combination of decent size and quality perhaps this would be the best way to go. It would certainly get my attention.' In its most simplest use VSD can be used with speakers be it bluetooth or otherwise. Sounds triggered by a throttle and handset for loading into VSD can be readily found on the net .Yes the steam aspects of VSD need improving but there are those of us including myself (that are modelling steam) who are prepared to input time etc not only for their own use but for others and the hobby in general. Remember that the vast majority of railway modellers ( who are probably not on here ) just want to know that they spend the requisite amount, take a loco out of its box, plonk it on the supplied track circle, plug in their cheap DCC controller, twist the throttle knob and the loco moves and makes a sound. Have the vast majority got the requisite amount to spend? Their cheap DCC controller that costs less than a single soundchip? Also there is yet another fatal flaw in this offered alternative, it has been shown being fitted to an O gauge loco and no attempt has been made to adapt the components to OO gauge. PhilH and I model in OO gauge and Nigelcliffe is a leading light in 2mm. The O gauge element on RMWeb is possibly smaller than the DCC Sound one. Another fatal flaw? As we have seen and read PhilH has already stated his own views with respect to present sound decoders and many in the 2mm fraternity would welcome I am sure a cheaper ( than DCC Soundchips) method of sound using speakers. Again VSD could fulfill this role. Of course there is always RR@Co's 4D addon if you have the requisite. Clickertyclack's system is patently controlled by a DC controller and although impressive on a YouTube video, has not been demonstrated in public although the opportunity has been offered in the past. This forum has regularly played host to YouTube videos that seem pretty good at the time of viewing but quickly fade away. And the reason for the above somewhat disparaging remarks? In what way are these comments related to the current topic? None. I have seen you delete comments that have no bearing on subject matter before so who moderates the moderators? However, having made those remarks allows me the opportunity to respond. You are unaware David that prior to the offer to demonstrate that DC system ( utilising Bluetooth) I wrote to RMweb enquiring about the possibility of showing the system at an open day, Taunton I believe. However no reply was received. I am sure members reading your comments will come to their own conclusions as to why the subsequent opportunity was declined. But I did at least post suitable video's on Youtube. As a self confessed 'sound guru' I have yet to hear any of your projects from one of these sophisticated soundchips you are enamoured with in the DCC soundvideos post This thread started with a really great idea with limited appeal. The mounting of a sound decoder under the layout containing 4 different limited sound projects for four different locos run one at a time. The ability to pipe the resultant sound to speakers of good quality, mounted other than on the loco was a sensible move for a small layout like a branch terminus, a shunting plank or even a small MPD was a very good idea. And whats wrong with an even better idea with larger appeal? VSD can have multiple projects running at the same time. It has the ability to pipe far better quality sound to those good quality speakers and is ideal for those layouts mentioned above. CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted March 27, 2014 Share Posted March 27, 2014 Hi again.... It's been a while since this thread was last updated. I have been busy offline trying to fulfil my objective of having cheaper and better quality sound. Today I have started a new topic called Sound for the Masses in the Modelling Musings and Miscellany thread.... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/83931-sound-for-the-masses/ i have posted a video that, I think, shows a novel way of introducing sounds onto a layout.... From a DCC Sound perspective, I am convinced that the SoundBoard method can compliment onboard DCC soundchips by adding the extra sounds that chips can't accomodate. For example, ClicketyClack rail sounds that are triggered after the loco has passed.... This is something that has always been missing from the soundchip method. Perhaps DCC sound can now become as one with offboard sound? Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigal10 Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I was at Wigan Model Railway Exhibition yesterday, and was interested in the stand of Barrowmore MRG showing MOSTYN, which I suspect lots of followers here have seen at other exhibitions. It's a big layout, with a number of running lines doing the full oval around the members who control from inside. All beautifully modelled, with some witty touches, like the tractor holding up a massive queue on the main through road! They were running a whole rake of 40's and other classes, pulling a variety of trains, none of which, I was told, had sound on board, but they had a stereo setup under the boards with suitably draped curtains hiding all the gubbins, at one location of the layout. There was a member operating a laptop which obviously had a few alternative soundfiles, some for startup, and then accelerate, and then pull off into the distance; and some for 'through train' , some left-to-right, and some right-to-left. The actual sounds were great, loads of 'beef' and low-down grunt, and the whole train effect, of carriages or waggons passing long after the loco had moved on, - which was what first attracted me (and others) to the stand, you could hear the 40's start-up from the other end of Wigan's large sports hall! That all worked well for an exhibition layout, but as the trains left that part of the layout, there was no sound at all, until they brought a different loco or train into that area. I'm interested in decent diesel sounds, and have followed this thread with interest, and wondered if others had comment on this MRG type of 'static' sound? (Not a criticism of Mostyn's sound, it was lovely, but I prefer my sound to move with the loco) Regards, Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyWales Posted June 10, 2014 Share Posted June 10, 2014 .......I'm interested in decent diesel sounds, and have followed this thread with interest, and wondered if others had comment on this MRG type of 'static' sound? (Not a criticism of Mostyn's sound, it was lovely, but I prefer my sound to move with the loco) Regards, Alan Hi Alan....I saw Mostyn at DEMU about five years ago and I recall thinking that the sound was disappointing... it may be that the ambient noises of the exhibition hall cut across the sounds, but to me it was just a loud soundtrack being played in the background. I wouldn't know if they still use the same method...but it would appear so from your description. However, in the Sound for the Masses thread (Musings and Miscellany) this is just what I have been advocating. I have found that in a more sterile environment without any distractions (ie my layout room) it is easy to associate the soundtracks I'm hearing with the movement of the trains on my 4mm layout. I have placed speakers in various positions, and I found that the best results were obtained with the speakers placed on a stool beneath the layout - not directly underneath the baseboard.... I have also used the iPad application to stream sampled sounds via Bluetooth to my 7mm Heljan Class 37 - the result is far superior (and much much cheaper) than an onboard 7mm sound decoder. Again it is easy to control the movement and sound separately. Remember....even though they add to the overall soundscape, the sounds of the carriages and wagons shouldn't come from the locomotive.... The loco sounds dominate as the train approaches...the sounds of remainder of the train then take precedence after the loco has passed. This is quite easily achieved with a soundtrack played through offboard speakers, especially if you take care to synchronise the playback to reach the crescendo as the train passes your viewing position. You'll also experience the correct Doppler shift too.... Using appropriate recordings, you can also play whistles, horns and other sounds at your convenience which enhances the feeling of being in control of sound production, rather than just running trains with a soundtrack in the background. Due to personal reasons, I have been unable to continue my work using the DCC JMRI Virtual Sound Decoder. That has to be for another day..... Randall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
porkie Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Yes, that's the way I would see it. Make sure your normal DC (analogue) controller is entirely disconnected to avoid any potential problems. You would need a DCC controller to operate the decoder*, connect track outputs to red wire and black wire on the decoder. (Something like an NCE PowerCab will suit your needs. Avoid really cheap units because they either don't have enough function keys, or can't read CVs or both). The motor output wires from the decoder, orange wire and grey wire become your track feed, and drive your DC locos. Don't have a Relco type high frequency track cleaner attached, and don't power any points, signals or lights from you track circuit. Good short circuit protection would be a sensible addition to protect the decoder. Speaker wires, purple if it's a ZIMO, brown if ESU, to an amplifier or speaker. The ZIMO has a 3W amplifier so should be fine with a matched speaker, 4~8 Ohms Other decoders are available, but not many with UK sounds. * you could run the decoder with a pure DC analogue controller. The motor power and sound functions will work, but you will have very little control of all the 'manually operated' sounds like whistles, horns etc. This is no different to putting a sound decoder ino a loco and running it on analogue, except, of course, that you could use the same sound for more than one loco. Kind regards, Paul This is exactly what I have done. I have 6 chips, and have the motor feeds running through a dpdt rotary switch to prevent back feeds to the other chips when not in use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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