San Pedro Sub/Santa Ana Branch

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear RMWebbers,

 

Was doing some web-stumbling, and found the following album on RRPicture Archives

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/archiveThumbs.aspx?id=60599

 

 

which led me to the following pics

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2276068

 

http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2276066#

 

 

Now, the derail was intriguing as-was, but the apparent double-diamond spur arrangement had me all fired-up thinking I'd found a proto Timesaver...

 

so, a few moments work with Google maps, and I located the area...

 

http://goo.gl/maps/bO6Q1

 

Zoom out, have a walk-around Left (West) and Right (East), there's plenty to spot for the LA switching fan... ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[TotalLamer]

Not really related to that specific industry, but as far as your interest in the split-rail, those are honestly pretty common.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear Total,

 

Honesty compels me to admit that when we talk derails in a US context, I tend to think of the flip-over-rail versions. To see a "full turnout" version which I tend to associated mentally with UK and Aussie railways was a "hello there...." moment... ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[JWB]

There's a lot of interesting trackage just slightly to the north, where the San Pedro Sub crosses the Los Angeles Junction, and the BNSF runs within a block or two of both. There's a lot of warm wind expended on modeling this area among the self-appointed "expert" jerks who've never actually built a model railroad but hold clinics on how it ought to be done. However, I've never seen a layout that actually captures what the area is actually like. Check google maps for the intersection of Commerce St and Downey Road in Vernon, CA.

 

 

 

[shortliner]

You could certainly have a lot of fun switching cars around in there!

[JWB]

There are some interesting issues in trying to do this. One is that, as Dave H has pointed out in a similar context, the actual spurs go off at 90 degrees to the main track, which is a big reason for the crossings -- they're largely of 90-degree spurs heading off in opposite directions toward each other. The crossing in the spur above is of the Los Angeles Junction crossing the UP Harbor Sub at 90 degrees. Actually modeling this makes a shunty-plank impossible.  Another issue is the traffic: it's carload freight, in boxcars, gons, tanks, covered hoppers, and flats. Lance Mindheim will roll over on his back with his paws in the air over this, but the fact is that it's a shrinking fraction of the actual rail scene. It doesn't account for intermodal, for example. You need to design an entirely different sort of layout to accommodate things like intermodal or unit trains. (The Kato USA site has an interesting plan for an N layout to do unit trains.) Even in HO, while you'd have a hard time designing a layout to handle intermodal or unit operation along one wall, it could be done in a spare room or garden shed, which some people here certainly have available. It could also be done in N, although the range of available equipment to do this credibly is surprisingly slim -- no 53 foot trailers, for instance.

 

Meanwhile, the guys who actually do concentrate on the urban switching scene mostly don't evoke the actual atmosphere. Look at the complexity of the power poles and rail hardware in the photos above, for instance. Even St Mindheim doesn't do that stuff.

[dave1905]

 

Honesty compels me to admit that when we talk derails in a US context, I tend to think of the flip-over-rail versions. To see a "full turnout" version which I tend to associated metally with UK and Aussie railways was a "hello there...." moment... ;-)

There are thousands of them over here. If you want to stop a train you put in a split point derail, if you want to stop a few cars you use the frog type. Many of the split point derails are single point versions.

[dave1905]

Council Bluffs, IA was another place where there were grade crossings everywhere. There are fewer now, looks like only about 5 diamonds now, down from over a dozen 20 years ago.

 

One could do the 90 degree crossings by joining planks at right angles to make an E that could sit on a kitchen table. Especially in N scale.

[TotalLamer]

Dear Total,

 

Honesty compels me to admit that when we talk derails in a US context, I tend to think of the flip-over-rail versions. To see a "full turnout" version which I tend to associated metally with UK and Aussie railways was a "hello there...." moment... ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

 

Haha, no worries!

 

Off the top of my head I can think of 4 split rails around where I work.  One on the lead inside the fence at a Coke plant (this one also has individual derails on each track where cars are spotted as well), one on the lead at a cement place, one on the old Piedmont & Northern main that divides what CSX owns and operates and what the new Piedmont & Northern shortline operates aaaaaand... one just shy of the old Riverbend power plant where CSX's ownership of the track ends and Duke Power's begins.  There's one more up at an industry called Nexeo Solutions but the split rail itself is out of service for whatever reason.

[trisonic]

Very interesting, everyone! Thanks for starting it off, John.

I must say that I've never seen that amount of confusing power poles etc., in one place before....

 

I took a look at the Kato site and the plans are basically extended train set types  - which is fine if you want to watch trains going around, around. John (the other one) - take a look at the "Warren Lane" layout on here. Set in England it is a fine example of a small container handling terminal (whilst still being a roundy round ) you just can't see the back of it unless you are a controller.

 

Best, Pete.

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear JWB,

 

There are some interesting issues in trying to do this. One is that, as Dave H has pointed out in a similar context, the actual spurs go off at 90 degrees to the main track, which is a big reason for the crossings -- they're largely of 90-degree spurs heading off in opposite directions toward each other. The crossing in the spur above is of the Los Angeles Junction crossing the UP Harbor Sub at 90 degrees. Actually modeling this makes a shunty-plank impossible...

 

...Meanwhile, the guys who actually do concentrate on the urban switching scene mostly don't evoke the actual atmosphere...

 

Um, "switching layouts" can easily accomodate 90-degree spurs and crossings, it just takes a bit of ingenuity and benchwork tweaking... ;-)
A few months ago, (or was it years, time flies when you're having fun), some members here were discussing modelling the Blue Herron papermill in Oregon City. One of the key pieces of track for that particular mission was/is a traction-curve-tight 90-degree spur. Such is easily accomodated on three 4x1 modules, where the "peninsula" could be either a fold-up/down or a completely removable lightweight piece (even Inc proscenium-type lighting rig).

 

Google "Brooklyn : 3AM", and you'll find various "drop leaf" staging solutions which can be easily adapted and expanded from "hidden staging" to "fully scenic'd".
 

I wouldn't go with the term "impossible" in this context,
if only One starts with a firm idea of what they are aiming for, and the drive and lateral thinking to find suitable solutions... ;-)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

 

PS there appears to be some significant telephoto-lense forshortening in some of those example images. Were I to build similar Sth CA scenes,
(which I actually want to do, having stockpiled a fleet of CCT SW1500s and a few GB of Lodi Industrial Lead reference info,
and previously posted about a grabbed-me-by-the-shrt-collar-and-won't-let-go image of a J-Yard switch job shoving past the LA river channel),

 

I know I'd want to model it "as the photo shows", despite that resulting in power-poles which are located too close together.
Serious question, would that as an approach be a showstopper?

 

PPS what would be the issue with modelling the LAJ/UP crossing with a short backdrop<>fascia 90-deg dummy track? Sure, it wouldn't enable full operation of both legs of the jct, but it would force crews on the "thru track" to treat the crossing with due respect and operational protocols. If there was a interchange track nearby, it could also be treated appropriately while providing "universal industry" capability...
(IIRC one of the earliest MRP annuals had a focus on modelling crossings and diamonds, and associated operations. Worth a look?)

[JWB]

I would mostly model the power poles painted on the backdrop. I think what I said about a "shunty-plank" still applies: if you're talking about disassembling pieces of 4 x 1 and reassembling, you've left shunty-plank behind. Same with Brooklyn 3AM, which I would characterize as an exhibition diorama, not a shunty-plank. And if, as Dave H suggested, you put a version of the LAJ-Harbor Sub crossing in a corner at the junction of two shelves (or equivalent 90-degree industrial spurs in a corner), again, it's not a shunty-plank.

[JWB]

Regarding the track plans on the Kato site, the one I had in mind was "Western Coal" (having a hard time inserting links lately). This is 3 feet by 15 feet in N, but could be bent around a corner for use in a garden shed or spare room and would provide scope for modern main line running. It could certainly be feeding an imaginative universe that included Bailey Yard.

[shortliner]

 

PPS what would be the issue with modelling the LAJ/UP crossing with a short backdrop<>fascia 90-deg dummy track? Sure, it wouldn't enable full operation of both legs of the jct, but it would force crews on the "thru track" to treat the crossing with due respect and operational protocols. If there was a interchange track nearby, it could also be treated appropriately while providing "universal industry" capability...

 

 Actually this  could provide a good operational scenario - the problem would be to persuade it to fit into what I would call a sensibly small(ish) space (ie fairly compact) - anyone fancy coming up with a plan? My max length is around 6-7 feet, which is going to play hob with siding lengths in HO, even looking at something like my Ballart Terminal on Carls scrapbook  http://www.carendt.com/scrapbook/page85a/

[JWB]

Here is the basic approach I would take to a corner layout based on the LAJ-UP crossing in Vernon:

 

You can add spurs parallel to either leg depending on the space available. I would be looking for some type of staging or fiddle past the end of either leg. The upper left leg represents the area called "the flood" by railroaders (apparently because it is next to the LA River). It actually has LAJ and UP tracks in parallel, but we'll squeeze them together here. A tank car industry might be good. The lower right leg represents "Federal siding", a spot where the local ties up on the UP. You could add a parallel spur for the Federal Cold Storage warehouse. The foreground on the right leg would be Downey Road.

 

[Prof Klyzlr]

Dear JWB,

 

Maybe it's just me, but I see 2 layouts in your trackplan offered above...

 

- Assume for a moment that the modeller doesn't have access to a corner location with at least 8' along each "leg"

- Assume they do have access to a 12' x 1' shelf area along a single wall
(could be a 8x1 with a temporary 4x1 clip-on staging section available during operations)

- Assume they want to model the action of interchange between LAJ and UP at this location

 

Either railroad could be modelled/focussed-on,
(athough, with the line of buildings and road guiding the scene and viewing-angles/orientation, I'd probably opt to focus on the UP route,
guess it depends on whether you feel more attached to the SP/UP SW1500s, GP38s, and Gensets,
or those gorgeous LAJ CF7s... ;-) )

with the other represented by a 12" front<>back dummy-track + 90-deg diamond,
and all the requisite jct and track details
(silver control-point hut, name boards, wiring, proto87stores frogs and jointbars, etc etc)

 

and a geometrically-challenged "curved interchange track" implying the link between the 2 railroads... ;-)

 

Modelled with a similar "observation-perception-recreation-comparison" approach as "Brooklyn",
I can't see any particular reason why such a shunty-pla....oops, I mean small/switching/shelf layout can't provide both high-grade visual and operationally-authentic results...

(and the last thing I'd want to see is anyone thinking "oh dear, I only have room for a shallow shelf, guess that means I can't model anything that takes inspiration from LA switching"...)

 

Happy Modelling,
Aim to Improve,
Prof Klyzlr

[trisonic]

 

(and the last thing I'd want to see is anyone thinking "oh dear, I only have room for a shallow shelf, guess that means I can't model anything that takes inspiration from LA switching"...)

 

Happy Modelling,

Aim to Improve,

Prof Klyzlr

Or anywhere. I "showed" your "Brooklyn 3:00am" to a pal of mine with a usual cramped Manhattan apartment. Now he's building a highly detailed working diorama in an unused alcove. I'll try an persuade him to post some pics in the future.

I'm sure it's inspired many to have a go at actually doing something - which should be encouraged.

 

Best, Pete.

[shortliner]

I thought I'd have a play with the idea, so I took the Rugenhaven plan from page 85a in the scrapbook and amended then mirrored and flipped it in PSP, just to get an idea of what it might look like in various configurations - the results are below

 

 

 

 

[JWB]

It seems to me that the advantage of a 90-degree bend is that you have the inevitable impression that you're going someplace different when operating. It also makes some use of the 90-degree crossing in the E-W axis to clear the switch so you can shove into the spur, and depending on how things are set up, some use as well on the N-S axis, also to clear for switching. In that sense, it has the same advantage as the Haston plan, which also makes practical use of a crossing, as opposed to having just a cosmetic one. I think the point is that if you do have a corner, this is one thing you can do with it -- my impression, having seen many a shunty-plank published, is that sometimes a corner might be put to good use. If you don't have a corner, naturally you need to look for other solutions.

[JWB]

But here are some shots in the street on Leonis Bl Vernon that show what you can do on a shunty-plank. The trackage is Los Angeles Junction, but BNSF runs a block to the west. Both lines go to a mutual team track area to the south.